I summon the great powers of my fellow DMs to aid me in my hour of need. I am having a serious problem with my players. They don't try to actually play their characters and have their personalities advance. They simply go into a room, kill everything in site, take the treasure and then move on to the next room. I have tried to have them create personal histories but they didn't take it seriously, to say the least. The only skills they use are Listen and Search. Their only goals in the life of their characters seem to be to kill as many things as possible and use the gold they get to buy more stuff that makes them able to kill more stuff. Please chip in your two coppers and help me encourage some actual roleplaying not just Hack'nSlash.
You might want to try searching around this board. I think we get this question about once a month. There are some threads chalk full of ideas from basing XP around role playing to varous carrot and stick approaches to the problem.
Once a month seems a bit liberal to me, really; the inquiries have died down over the last season. Although, this may mark the beginning of a new upward trend! What will first quarter 2007 bring to the boards of Paizo? :)
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Dungeon crawls don't provide a lot of opportunities for roleplaying. Killing, looting, and moving on is the standard operating procedure.
Try some city scenarios. See if they try to blow-up, burn down, or slaughter the population, or if they get a clue and start making use of Gather Information, Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, et al.
If they choose the former, make sure that they reap the appropiate penalties for their choices.
I don't see the problem.
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I don't see the problem.
Exactly. If the Players are happy then leave it be. It sounds like you like more in depth roleplaying and want your players to follow suit. Ask them what they want. It is very cathartic to finish off a hell week in real life with a session of hack and slash. Some people don't really want to get into intrigue, mystery, heavy duty thinking, They just want get their mission, kill the critters in the way and loot their ichor dripping carcasses. There is nothing wrong with a hack and slash game and there is nothing wrong with a mystery, political intrigue, heavy roleplay game. The only problem is when a DM tries to force players to play a different game then they want to.
My suggestion is to open up a discussion with them and ask where the group stands on the different issues. Maybe they would like to roleplay more stuff while prepping for missions but want a clear hack and slash dungeon awaiting them afterwards. It sounds like you have been doing a great job so far: they are enjoying the game, thats your job. If you are getting no enjoyment then maybe they might want to change or you may need to hand the reigns of the DM to one of the other players and try playing a bit.Nobody here can tell you what you should do until you know what your players want. Talk to them about this. They will let you know if they have any issues and probably appreciate the concern for their gaming welfare.
Sounds like you are doing a good job so far.
FH
As a DM you have to run the game you want to play or else it isn't any funny for you. SO that being said if you are not wanting to run hack-n-slash and your players don't want to do roleplaying, then there is only two ways to handle it... A) Find another group completely, B) Hand the game over to someone else and try playing, and/or then do A as well.
Thanks for the input, this is the first thread I've started but I think I need to clarify my problem. I started playing D&D in June and I wasn't experienced enough to create campaigns that were anything other than Hack'nSlash. However I now have both the skills and inclination to create more complex adventures but the players don't know how to do anything else. They rely almost completley on melee combat, not faring well at all against traps, situations that require the use of their skills or anything that doesn't rely on their ability to kill everything in sight. Even the sorcer prefers combat to anything else, rarley casting spells (this obviosly puts them in dangerous situations on a regular basis. I have tried to present them with non-combat situations that involve a storyline (and I will continue to do so but I don't hold much hope of this succeeding). They generally ignore the storyline and whatever important clues are given therein. They also are more or less unaware of how to use the special abilities granted to them by class and race. I am not sure weather they are rollplayers or roleplayers as they haven't been able to expiriment with both styles. Thanks for the suggestion to put them in a city, I'll try it.
As a DM you have to run the game you want to play or else it isn't any funny for you. SO that being said if you are not wanting to run hack-n-slash and your players don't want to do roleplaying, then there is only two ways to handle it... A) Find another group completely, B) Hand the game over to someone else and try playing, and/or then do A as well.
I think Arcmagik has the right idea. Of course, finding a new group is difficult and often undesireable.
I'd go with some version of option B -- either find a roleplaying-intensive DM and play yourself, or find a player to add to the group that will go along with your style. In either case, hopefully the current players will follow your lead and get a little more into the plotline and RPing.
Good Luck,
Jack
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Putting them in a city is one way to get them acting like they should. One of my favorite ways to coax players out of the hack-and-slash mindset is to pit them against an enemy who is VASTLY more powerful than they are and make it so that something other than direct confrontation is needed to succeed.
If your players are playing 5th-level characters, let them hear about a 13th level necromancer doing awful things somewhere. Make sure you play up the fact that this guy is POWERFUL and make sure the players realize that going up against this guy directly is basically suicide. Maybe have some random NPCs hint at some kind of weakness this guy has. Perhaps this necromancer was the only survivor of a terrible plague and still bears some mark of this taint. Have the players seek out people who know something about this plague and find out if they know anything that might help them. Maybe the plague caused a violent allergy to some type of plant. The players could seek out this plant and use it against him somehow (perhaps have it render him blinded and stunned for awhile). Alternately, they could seek to cure him and see if he is willing to be redeemed (if you really want them to roleplay hardcore). Maybe there is an ointment that will lift his ailment from him.
Whatever you decide, I think that forcing players to think outside of direct combat is the first step to motivating people to roleplay. If they ignore the warnings and go after this guy head-on, have him use finger of death on someone, laugh, and teleport away. Watching a party member suddenly drop dead should suggest that maybe a direct confrontation is not the wisest choice.
Even the sorcer prefers combat to anything else, rarley casting spells (this obviosly puts them in dangerous situations on a regular basis.
Whoa, what?! Do you mean the sorcerer wades into combat and starts flailing about with his massive 1/2 level BAB? How is he still alive?
At any rate, regarding the opinions that there is no problem, that's not entirely true. As Arcmagik stated, the DM has to have some level of enjoyment in the game, or he eventually starts running a crappy game, and no one is happy. While I don't promote a dictatorship at the table, the DM does have the largest say in any decision about the campaign, just because of the sheer disproportion of effort put into making the game happen on his part.
Switching to playing, rather than DMing, can be tempting at first, but it might not be as fulfilling as you think. If no one else wants to DM, you're out of luck. If you're looking to have a roleplaying centric game, but your players can't handle that, then I don't see how switching reigns to one of them will give you the game you want. You're likely to be even more unhappy playing in a purely hack-n-slash game, where you've got little to no say in the course of events, than you would DMing one, where you can at least try to direct the game in some fashion that suits your interest. Also, it sounds like you and your group are very new to the game, so handing the DM's chair over to somone else may not be a good option at this point, either. And if you live in an area that's gamer-poor, finding a new group really isn't an option. That means you have to be diplomatic with your current one, or they may get angry, ditch you, and then there is no game at all.
It sounded at first like the situation was that they didn't want to stop dungeon delving, but now it sounds like they can't even competently do that. You first need to ween them off d20 attack rolls and get them familiar with skill checks, feat usage, spells, etc. I remember when I started playing, it took the longest time to get one player to remember that every attack roll used a d20, but they should come around.
Some people also just don't have a head for certain rules. One of my friends could make hellacious melee combatants, archers, and stealth characters. But, anytime he played a spellcaster, god help the rest of us, because he couldn't pick a balanced spell list for the life of him, and still didn't even understand most of the spells he did have. I, on the other hand, love building spellcasters, but have many times failed to calculate the proper attack and damage bonuses on a melee combatant when I played one.
The end result of all this is that it sounds like you are just having growing pains with a new group that's still learing the rules. If I understand you right, you've been playing half a year. Things will start coming around more in the next few months, more than likely. Your ability to craft adventures will improve, too, and then you may find it easier to engage the group in roleplaying. Adopt the mindset that what you're doing now is sort of an experiment, getting you and your group used to the higher functions of the game, and learn from your mistakes. Try different game styles and situations, and see how you and your players handle them, which ones are liked and disliked. Be patient and things should largely resolve themselves.
I like Fatespinners idea and I might try something similair. Also the sorcerer is a stone giant. She can kill just about anything I thow at her because she has a very high attack and does an extrodinary amont of damage with each hit, she only bothers to roll the d20 to confirm critical hits (I have since told her that she can't play that character for a few levels). Part of the problem is that one of the players really doesn't take the game seriously and makes too many jokes which take us off on sidetracks that distract from the game. I can't hand over DMing completley because I've had experience with the other player's DMing (we switch off) and it is almost entirley Hack'nSlash. I also prefer being DM to playing. There is a friend of mine that I think would be a great roleplayer but so far I have been unable to get her in the game. Any suggestions on how to do that would also be appreciated as she would make the whole thing a lot easier.
What the others have suggested has been very good. I ran into the same problem a year or so ago. It was just too frustrating for me as a DM and made me stop altogether for a while. My solution was to have two groups. One was my group of friends that is mostly hack n' slash and the other is a group of more roleplaying focused folks. I still try to get the hack n' slash folks to roleplay but when it doesn't work it's not as frustrating now because I have the other group. SInce I don't have a lot of time I alternate between the groups each week so they only play every other week while I DM every week. Using the APs from Paizo helped a lot too, because you don't feel as personally attached to the material. At least it helps for me.
Okay, well... you might have to start over.
At a base ECL of 19 (thanks Erian_7) for a 1st level stone giant sorcerer, it's not really much wonder that the player isn't taking the game very seriously - it takes a very large threat to challenge such a behemoth.
I highly suggest setting aside the current game and characters, and starting a new campaign at 3rd level. Use only the core manuals, and only allow PC races from the PH. There's a table on page 135 of the DMG for PC wealth by level (I'm feeling to lazy to get it right now) - use that, but disallow any single item costing more than 1/4 their total wealth, and any moderate or more powerful magical item.
Have a starting place will get your friend in the game easier.
Ask that the players come up with a backstory for their characters, including why they are together. If you can, help them come up with these backstories, as they may need help making believable ones.
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...Also the sorcerer is a stone giant...
???
What are the other characters? What levels are the people? I think I read earlier that you said that you started DMing in June of this year?
I don't think that I would ever allow one of our players to play a stone giant (or any other giant for matter). It would lead way too much to the Hack and Slash that you are referring to. (Although I might do some kind of one-shot with a group full of giants just for the hack and slash -- it's good once in a while.)
If you really are running a campaign with ECLs around 20th level, I would really suggest starting over with characters at 1st level. I would also suggest that the group gains xp at half speed or at least really slow down the progression. It will give the group a chance to really appreciate the few times that they get to advance a level. I also suggest that for the next few times, the ONLY way to accomplish their goal is to get the Magic Golden Key of Arctaris that the ancient gold dragon is currently holding (or something similar). Make the game such that they always have to bargain, quest, or sing (there was a Justice League episode where Batman had to bargain with Serci (I believe) and she told him that she would do what he wanted if he sang a song on stage).
Basically, my suggestion is to take a step back and slow things down first. Then create walls such that all the head beating in the world will never break them down.
My 2 coppers
I was just about to mention that, Thanis (although the stone giant sorcerer would be ECL 19 at least (14 HD +4 LA +1 Sor1). Starting over with "normal" characters, then throwing standard non-combat challenges (CR3-5 traps, 30' gorge to bypass with Climb, etc.) should do much to bring them around.
I'd also suggest killing them (fairly) if you continue with the current characters. Put a series of CR10 traps in the way of the next treasure horde, and have it owned by an epic level caster (Wiz22 should do, and still be within acceptable CR for such a group) with spells like greater invisibility, fly, imprisonment and mage’s disjunction.
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Okay, well... you might have to start over.
At a base ECL of 18 for a 1st level stone giant sorcerer, it's not really much wonder that the player isn't taking the game very seriously - it takes a very large threat to challenge such a behemoth.
I highly suggest setting aside the current game and characters, and starting a new campaign at 3rd level. Use only the core manuals, and only allow PC races from the PH. There's a table on page 135 of the DMG for PC wealth by level (I'm feeling to lazy to get it right now) - use that, but disallow any single item costing more than 1/4 their total wealth, and any moderate or more powerful magical item.
Have a starting place will get your friend in the game easier.
Ask that the players come up with a backstory for their characters, including why they are together. If you can, help them come up with these backstories, as they may need help making believable ones.
Yeah, I retract my previous advice in light of the new info presented. Scratch the current campaign and start over with a core only ruleset. Are all of the players also new to D&D? If so they need to be taught how to play the basics of the game like talking to people and using skills. I would also suggest running an adventure called Challenge of Champions (there have been several incarnations in Dungeon magazine over the years). These are a series of challenges that use wit and skills to solve rather than muscle and brute force.
FH
the stone giant sorcerer would be ECL 19 at least (14 HD +4 LA +1 Sor1).
Quite right. I was going to say that, but then I starting thinking CRs. I can hardly see a 12 foot tall creature as a playable monster; since sorcerer would be non-associated for them, I didn't count it in. Silly me. :-)
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I would also suggest running an adventure called Challenge of Champions (there have been several incarnations in Dungeon magazine over the years). These are a series of challenges that use wit and skills to solve rather than muscle and brute force.
Excellent series -- issues number 58, 69, 80, 91, 108, & 138.
Quite right. I was going to say that, but then I starting thinking CRs. I can hardly see a 12 foot tall creature as a playable monster; since sorcerer would be non-associated for them, I didn't count it in. Silly me. :-)
And I wasn't going to mention it (I don't like being that picky about rules minutia generally), but then didn't want a new DM misunderstanding the mechanics...
I actually wouldn't have problems with a giant PC (or dragons, or celestials, etc.), but it'd be almost guaranteed as an Epic adventure in that case, and that's not something I'd recommend for a group of new players.
I'll start off by saying I am a horrible RPer. I dabble in it, and attempt to, but I try and stay more into the background when the talking is done.
What are things that are opening me up? Here's a few things my DM did that I absolutely love, and got me to talk out and flesh out my character more than just the stats and rolls.
1. Intense characters of his own. We met with a cenile Seer (he loved wine, mentioned his sister constantly (who unfortunately was dead since he was nearly ageless himself)), a very jumpy inn keeper (I mentioned a seedy bar, and the man fainted...), and a very angry dwarven tower keeper (our dwarf party member inherited the tower through the deck of many things, this guy was great, angry, yelling (the DM literally yelled most of his lines. "I don't associate with human GITS!" No idea what it mean, but you could tell it wasn't good.)).
2. Rival adventurers. We met up with a group that cast a hold spell on three of us. It was some kind of trap set in the Inn. What did they do? They painted us in a yellow paint smelling much like rotten eggs, and drew the proverbial mustaches and other defacing things. The 3 characters weren't looking for us, but another rival group. But painted us anyways. So I looked for them to get them back. The next day a spider thing was in the town, and the 2 groups were fighting with each other inside the inn instead of going outside to fight the monster. We got around their spells, but they couldn't really be reasoned with. After the spider was done it exploded in a mass of ichor. I found a bucket, scooped up some ichor, and splashed it upon the two rival groups (who were still fighting with each other who got to go out to fight for the city).
The Rival groups are now in jail for unlawful use of magic. I'm thinking of getting them out because I'm chaotic, and I think it would be fun. There's plenty to do right now, save the queen from rival houses, i'm a member of the League of Nine (theives guild)
Anyways, that's my long drawn out recollection of what happened this week. It stands out the most because we played for about 6 hours and all we fought was the single spider. It all was roleplaying this week, and we're normally a hack 'n slash type of group.
So, what can you do? Have a group of adventurers stumble upon your PCs in the dungeon. They can either a. work together, b. have pissing contest and push the adventurers away, or c. attack. If a., that's perfect, they can work with each other and open up a ton of RPing possibilities, and make allies for later. If b., they have truly made a rival, and have them affect the PCs at merchants and the like. If c., have it affect them negatively in the eyes of the city, to where they might have to talk their way out of something, or make up for it. Their character is now in question and they have to atone for it, and more killing will not make up for it.
Just a few ideas, above all make it fun and interesting for them. Be prepared to be a little silly. It lightens the mood and really lets the players know that anything goes, what you want to come out is what you put in.
Thinking out of the boxhere and not concentrating too much on rules mechanics, if you want your players to roleplay more reward them for it.
I give xps for good role playing when interacting with npc's,
heck i give xps for when characters come up with a really cool one liner thats in character,
example from my group,
Paladin: "surrender and i will grant you your life"
Barbarian "Surrender and i will grant you a quick death!"
My players know they get bonus xps if they put on the funny voices and play in character.
It really works, I used to have a powergamer in my group who played just as you've described your friends but when he saw other people getting more xp for entertaining the Dm and creating a really fun emersive game he changed his tune!
Just my copper piece worth.
I don't associate with human GITS!
I present to you - the Urban Dictionary's definition of git!
The Rival groups are now in jail for unlawful use of magic. I'm thinking of getting them out because I'm chaotic, and I think it would be fun.
You're thinking of busting someone out of jail that taunted you, is a rival to you and is generally in your way because you're chaotic? Why not try to pin more crimes on them, or come up with further evidence to keep them in longer? You're a part of a Thieves' Guild, so there would be oodles of ways to continue to harass these guys after they got out - accidentally put the hot stolen item in their gear, feed false information to the city watch - loads of opportunity for harassment without having to go through the trouble and expense to break 'em out. Heck, let them break themselves out by leaving an opening for 'em, but alert the watch ahead of time. The watch generally don't like it when somebody tries to break out before they've served their time.
I don't associate with human GITS!I present to you - the Urban Dictionary's definition of git!
The Rival groups are now in jail for unlawful use of magic. I'm thinking of getting them out because I'm chaotic, and I think it would be fun.You're thinking of busting someone out of jail that taunted you, is a rival to you and is generally in your way because you're chaotic? Why not try to pin more crimes on them, or come up with further evidence to keep them in longer? You're a part of a Thieves' Guild, so there would be oodles of ways to continue to harass these guys after they got out - accidentally put the hot stolen item in their gear, feed false information to the city watch - loads of opportunity for harassment without having to go through the trouble and expense to break 'em out. Heck, let them break themselves out by leaving an opening for 'em, but alert the watch ahead of time. The watch generally don't like it when somebody tries to break out before they've served their time.
You know what, thank you! That sounds like a heck of a lot more fun! Hahaha!!!
You're welcome!
Thanks for the suggestions about the stone giant (after a game session I told her that she couldn't play it for awhile). Now that I know what a stone giant can do I am keeping a much closer watch on what races the PCs are. I also have problems being silly, especially as DM (when I try to be silly it ends up being pathetic, really pathetic). I created a personal history sheet (personal history, character goals, hometown and family) but they didn't take it at all seriously. It was just another area that they could goof off and make silly characters (I might just have to make an example of someone).
Just curious, what are the other characters?
I don't associate with human GITS!I present to you - the Urban Dictionary's definition of git!
~LAUGHTER~ Ok! New word alert! ~chuckles~
Okay - you asked for advince, so here's my $0.02:
1) Start a new campaign.
2) Only allow standard races & base classes from the PHB.
3) Make everyone level 1.
4) Start them out in jail - prisoners of some evil warlord.
No equipment, no gold, no spell components, no nothing!
5) However many players you have, create an equal number of NPCS.
6) The first session should feature an event that gives them
an opportunity to escape - maybe an attack by some foreign army, or powerful monster, or else a natural disaster (earthquake, volcano, hurricane).
7) The first few encounters should be brutal - but direct the brunt of the attack against the NPCS. The goal is to demonstrate that the PCs cannot go head-to-head against anything directly and expect to survive. By the end of the session, all NPCS should be eliminated, and the players should be terrified.
8) Ideally, you'll have a campaign in which even the most mundane items - leather armor, a rusty dagger, a pouch with a few spell components, etc. will be considered great treasure.
9) The threat of death should be very real - this should create a lot of tension and suspense, even if there is little actual combat.
10) A fight against a couple of 1st level fighters with good weapons and armor is suddenly a really hard encounter.
This kind of change may be too extreme for your group, and they may hate it and rebel against you. But I think the key to any game is that it has to be challenging. If it becomes too easy, then the thrill is gone.
I think it's far better to have players say things like, "hurray, we finally beat that big half orc fighter!" than "another great wyrm dragon? ho hum... where did I put that +5 vorpal longsword of dragonslaying..."
That's just my opinion...I could be wrong. :-)
The rest of the party is reasonable; a pixie rogue 3, a human bard 3 (almost four) and the fourth player's charactes drop like flies, I think her new one is a gargoyle ranger. This obviously creates a problem because the stone giant kills everything quickly but when I give her something that can get through her armor class it does massive damage, threatening to kill her in less than three rounds. This also makes it so she gets more XP than anyone else, allowing her to gain levels and power faster than the other players. A viscious cycle.
Wow, you've got an ECL (effective character level) 19+ (the stone giant sorcerer) in the same party with an ECL 7 (the pixie rogue) and ECL 3 (the bard). How do they even survive anything you send against a stone giant? With that mix, I'd definitely recommend restarting and making sure everyone is at the same ECL.
Now I see the problem.
Okay, this is just a guess, but here goes...
Either you need new players, or your players need a new DM. I don't mean that you literally need to find a new group of players, or that they need to find a new DM, but all of you need to change the way you're playing. First, fix the balance issues in the party. Second, control the behavior around the table and make sure everybody is focused on the game. Third, get your players invested in the outcome of the adventure. This is absolutely critical. If they care what happens to their characters, they will start to care what happens in the world around them. And that's when roleplaying starts. So, to get them invested in the outcome of the adventure, start by playing good adventures. What adventures have you played to date?
The rest of the party is reasonable; a pixie rogue 3, a human bard 3 (almost four) and the fourth player's charactes drop like flies, I think her new one is a gargoyle ranger. This obviously creates a problem because the stone giant kills everything quickly but when I give her something that can get through her armor class it does massive damage, threatening to kill her in less than three rounds. This also makes it so she gets more XP than anyone else, allowing her to gain levels and power faster than the other players. A viscious cycle.
Your problem, Arctaris, is that your characters are wildly different levels. Yes, their CLASS levels may be the same, BUT
welcome to the world of Level Adjustments (LA), racial Hit Dice, and Effective Character Levels (ECL).
A stone giant starts with 14 racial hit dice (which are just like class levels for most intents and purposes).
To make up for the incredible strength and special abilities of a stone giant, it starts play at a higher Effective Character Level. ECL is what you use to determine experience and treasure (but that's it - not feats or ability improvements OR when a creature "goes epic" (hits 21st level))
To calculate an ECL, you add a monster's racial hit dice, class levels, and Level Adjustment. A stone giant has a LA of +4.
So, since I'm assuming the Stone Giant is a 3rd level sorcerer, what you've got on your hands here is NOT a level 3 character, but an effective level 21 character!
Which means that the character has a base of 210,000 XP, and needs 231,000 XP to progress. Additionally, due to the self-correcting nature of the CR system, such a high level character earns much much less experience than those lower than her. In fact, unless the character faces a CR 13 challenge or higher, she earns NO experience at all! And in the event a CR 13 or higher challenge comes along, the human bard (at level 3) earns no experience.
Confusing, right? That's why, for now, I (and others) highly suggest you start a new game, at somewhere between level 1 and level 3 (I suggest 3 so they don't suffer a TPK in the first combat), where the players choose all of their options for character creation from the Player's Handbook (and possibly some minor magical items, as long as they can afford them, like potions of cure light wounds or wands of door detection.
Wow. And you just started playing this past June? I had a player when I started getting into D&D that liked playing "monster" races, but that was typically things like centaurs and gnolls. A stone giant and a pixie are two totally different things.
Your players are likely to whine and moan, since they seem to be having "fun" (at least they think they are) at the moment, but the type of thrill they're getting won't last long, not like the enjoyment of a balanced, more "by the book" game (which yours, at the moment, most certainly is not!).
I, for one, do not recommend starting at 3rd level, but at first. After what you've described, I think the best thing is to slow waaaay down and do an extremely back-to-basics, down-to-earth game with elves and dwarves and halflings and humans fighting goblins and orcs and looting silver pieces and masterwork weapons for a while. In effect, you need a total "restart" on your play experience.
It's hard to take a game seriously with such massive imbalances between characters, and such bizarre class/race combinations. No wonder they were making goofy backstories.
Don't feel too bad though- provided that you're playing with fairly rational, level headed people, they should come around and you all will probably have several years of great games ahead of you. After a while, you'll look back on this and chuckle at the silly, outlandish fun and novelty of this experience. I know that's how I feel when I look back on some of my early, horrid attempts at writing adventures. :)
I am aware of the massive level discrepancies and I have since dealt with it (by outlawing the stone giant). I have also tried to convince them that in the long run playing the balanced by the book rules will bring them more satisfactin but they have yet to come around. Another issue is that we rotate DMing between three people and I am the only one who sees a problem with our method of doing things. This makes for inconsistency and it takes the teeth out of any rulings I make.
...too...many...problems...impossible...to...tackle...just...one...
Co-DMing is fun when it works but the only way it can work is when all the DMs agree on things. If there are more than one DM I have found it easiest that each one runs their own game, with their rules and campaign-specific characters. So one DM can allow those wild romps with stone giant sorcerers (I can see the appeal of playing one, but I don't see what enjoyment that player of human bard gets from a game like that) and the other one runs by-the-PHB games. There is a possibility that nobody wants to play in your campaign, but still, that's the way I see thing can go.
it is a twisted mess of problems isn't it?
I think the pixie is going to be your next problem--their ability mods, greater invisibility, fly speed, and spell-like abilities make them easy game breakers. I only allow pixie characters to be played by very experienced players that I know can handle them without ruining the game for everyone else. Any plans to deal with it as yet?
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it is a twisted mess of problems isn't it?
Yes -- wow.
The rest of the party is reasonable; a pixie rogue 3, a human bard 3 (almost four) and the fourth player's charactes drop like flies, I think her new one is a gargoyle ranger. This obviously creates a problem because the stone giant kills everything quickly but when I give her something that can get through her armor class it does massive damage, threatening to kill her in less than three rounds. This also makes it so she gets more XP than anyone else, allowing her to gain levels and power faster than the other players. A viscious cycle.
Assuming a 3rd level gargoyle ranger, the ECL (Equivalent Character Level) is level 12 (LA +5, +4 monster HD, +3 Ranger levels).
Your Pixie is an ECL of 7 (or 9) (LA +4 (or +6 if you allow Otto's irresistable dance), +4 Rogue levels).
Your Human is an ECL of 3 (or 4).
Your Stone Giant is an ECL of 21 (LA +4, +14 Monster HD, +3 Sorcerer levels).
This makes an average party level of 10.75 (give or take).
As I understand the rules, as far as XP is concerned, assuming that you throw a CR 10 creature at the party and the party successfully defeats it, the party should recieve 3,000 xp, so each character gets 750 xp.
The bard needs 3,000 xp to get from 3rd to 4th. 750 xp is 1/4 of the way there.
The pixie needs 7,000 xp to get to 4th level rogue.
The gargoyle needs 12,000 xp to get to 4th level ranger.
The stone giant needs 21,000 xp to get to 4th level sorcerer.
My point with this is that the human fighter should be advancing MUCH faster than the rest of the group simply by hanging around the group. 4 CR 10 critters and the bard has gone up a level. It will take 10 CR 10 critters for the pixie to go up a level and in that time the bard would have already gone up two levels. The gargoyle and stone giant wouldn't have gone up any levels during this time.
I am not sure why you are saying that the sorcerer gets more xp than the rest of the party. The party should be getting the same xp for accomplishing the given task. And the stone giant would therefore be advancing so much slower as a result since he would need so much more to get to the next level. (And you are rapidly approaching epic level rules and I am not sure that you are ready for that yet.)
Good luck with your group.
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As I understand the rules, as far as XP is concerned, assuming that you throw a CR 10 creature at the party and the party successfully defeats it, the party should recieve 3,000 xp, so each character gets 750 xp.
That's not the way the rules are written, though it's a common misunderstanding. If you throw a CR10 creature at this party, an ECL 4 character will get 1/4 of the experience a 4th level party would get for killing a CR10 creature, while an ECL 21 character will get 1/4 of the experience a 21st level party would get for killing the creature. I don't have my books with me at the moment to provide the actual numbers, but the result is that the ECL 4 character gets far more experience and needs far less to advance to the next level than the ECL 21 character.
The ECL 4 character will advance much faster even than you (Moff) think.
(Play the way you want to, of course, but that's the way the rules read.)
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That's not the way the rules are written, though it's a common misunderstanding. If you throw a CR10 creature at this party, an ECL 4 character will get 1/4 of the experience a 4th level party would get for killing a CR10 creature, while an ECL 21 character will get 1/4 of the experience a 21st level party would get for killing the creature. I don't have my books with me at the moment to provide the actual numbers, but the result is that the ECL 4 character gets far more experience and needs far less to advance to the next level than the ECL 21 character.
That's right. Thanks for the correction. (I haven't run a group with this much disparity to it.)
So vs. a CR 10 creature --
The 4th level human bard would get 2,400 xp.
The pixie would get 1,575 xp.
The gargoyle would get 600 xp.
The stone giant isn't really on the chart, but if you extend the xp progression out it would get 131 xp.
The bard is getting 18 times the amount of xp (in this case) as the stone giant AND he has much less xp needed to get the next level. So, the bard would be more than half way to progressing a level just from the one fight, while the stone giant hardly even notices the encounter.
As Doug said -- the ECL 4 character will advance MUCH, MUCH faster than the stone giant. He won't ever really catch up (at least not for a VERY long time) but he should enjoy his rapid climb in powers and abilities.
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Great Thread, great question. Why has no one mentioned this, though?: Ask your players what they want.
Jebadiah, early on, asked what the problem is since everyone's having a good time. Great rhetorical question. Talk to the players about what their favorite and least favorite parts are. Discuss what your favorite and least favorite parts are. Then mention that you'd like to get back to the basics. Prepare them for it.
You don't HAVE to scrap everything and go back to the drawing board. If everyone is okay with the wackyness of the group it's okay. And the "Challenge of Champions" will run fine. But you don't have to leave the Dungeon you're in now.
When the PCs kick in the next door, instead of encountering orc and pie, they see Acererack! Friggin' 45HD Lich can I get a A-men? But Acererack doesn't care about the pie he's guarding; the PCs can have that. They just have to do him a favor. Thus the beginning of roleplaying.
And if the PCs want to fight (since yall don't know Acererack and the "Tomb of Horrors") have him blast a 50d6 fireball down the hall to get their attention. Really roll all the dice, too, add them up in front of the players. They won't want to fight Acererack anymore.
-W. E. Ray
I might take the suggestion to pit them against some uber villian (perhaps a level 20 mind-flayer lich)and force them to negotiate or die. I also intend to ask them if the want to be rollplayers or roleplayers next time we get together. I am also going to institute some rules about off topic discussions (you have to ware a garish hat with a little propeller on top), no speaking while the DM is talking ad anything you say is said in the game world unless you specifically say otherwise. Thanks for all the help (I hope that it works).
From what you've said, I'm working under the assumption that you ALL learned to play D&D together and no one has had any RPG experience outside of your current group.
So, for the rhetorical question of, "what's the problem if everyone is having fun?".... Of COURSE the PCs are having fun! They're running a superpowered group through a world where they can pretty much run amuck with NO consequences. If they also have NO other experience of RPGs, sounds like a blast! I mean, they're "winning", right?
So, I would suggest you NOT ask them, "OK, I was just thinking here, do you guys want to continue running overpowered races advancing way faster than they should that can pretty much do anything they want? 'Cause I was thinking, you know, that maybe you'd prefer it if I ran a game that actually had some BARRIERS to all that. What do you guys think?"
Anyone want to take a guess at the answer you'll get?
So with everything you've explained at this point, no, I WOULDN'T ask them what kind of game they want to run.
Here is what I DID in your situation:
OK guys. When I was creating this world and getting ready to start DMing, and you guys started talking about the races you wanted to run and new things you wanted to try, I said 'OK' because I saw how excited you were. I wanted you all to enjoy my campaign and me as a DM and I didn't want to crush that excitement. So I said OK, and I now know that I made a mistake in doing that. (I then enumerated all the imbalancing factors that I had created and allowed, and why they were a problem). So, instead of scrapping this whole world that I've put six months of blood, sweat, and tears into, I'm going to fix it. (And I enumerated what I was taking away, and why). Now, this is a major change, and I'm going to be doing this in storyline, in role play, but I wanted to talk with you all about it first so you know what I'm doing and why.
And I came up with story lines to fix all the mess of problems I'd allowed to happen, which included divine intervention.
As for some of the other stuff you brought up, here are some rules we use to deal with them (I don't play 3rd ed, so I don't know if any of this is incorporated already):
You mentioned the stone giant only bothers rolling d20 to confirm criticals. EVERYTHING they do in combat should be a roll. For us, whether it's an attack, or drinking a potion, or using a wand, or casting a spell, it's ALWAYS a d20 roll. Why? Because in real life there is ALWAYS the chance of a fumble. You drop the potion, a gnat flies in your mouth in the middle of spell casting, the wand misfires (or is hung up on some other piece of eqiupment), you throw your sword or slip on a bannana in the middle of an attack. There is ALWAYS the chance that you can screw up, and a roll of 1 always fumbles. (And the DM uses the same rule for the bad guys as well). And for the DM, it's fun coming up with ways to interpret what the 1 means in game.
Co-DMing: As Magdelena said, co-DMing only works if you can agree on things. I'm one of 3 DMs in our group, but it works because 1) we each have our OWN world settings, with our own pantheon, etc. and 2) One of us is the Primary DM, and he has final say on how to interpret rulings that for some reason would affect play in all three settings. So long as there's no impact to his or the other's worlds, we each do what we want. However, something that WOULD makde a difference (usually based on how a spell functions, how magic resistence is affected, etc.... laws of physics type stuff) he gets final say if we can't agree.
Overpowered PC races: I like letting my players run what they want, including demons and dragons, so here's the rule:
Regardless of what the MM says the max HD is, for a character being created at 1 - 3rd lvl, you get a max of 3 HD as a racial base. Then, as you advance in class level, you can access another HD in racial base for each class level until you reach the racial base listed in the MM. Also, I will sit down with the player during creation, review the racial abilities, and together we will determine what the player will have access to initially and what will have to wait for a higher level.
It's worked quite well.
For something like your Stone Giant, I would SO play up all the hinderances that her size will cause, esepcially in urban settings. (For example....... where is she getting all her food every day again????)
The advice above gets better as we understand more about your situation. Here's my take... it's very similar to the above, but follows my tendency to try to entice people.
First, I'd speak to the co-GMs. Tell them that you enjoy the game, but you're going to be working on a new campaign. Ask them if they'd be willing to pick up the extra sessions of GMing (the fun crazy game) while you prepare something new. Keep playing in the game-- be social, fit in, and don't worry about roll/role whatever playing. Enjoy it as a social but meaningless game.
Next, I'd come up with a first level adventure. Because you probably haven't seen a good adventure that challenges everyone in special ways, I'd pick up a Dungeon Magazine that has a first level adventure the month you buy it. (Or buy a module in the store, whatever.) Study the module, try to work out the unfamiliar instructions... get to know it cold.
Try running a group of characters (played by you) through it like a solo adventure. (I suggest picking our 4 NPCs from this DM Tools page, and not the critters, just the premade Fighters, Clerics, etc.) When it's time to make a skill roll, do you know what to do? How about when the enemy caster uses a spell? Is there anything that the adventure assumes that the PCs will do that you would never think of?
Now offer to run a special adventure for your fellow players. Tell them that it's a chance to try out a whole 'nother side of gaming... is anyone interested? Make it clear that it's only one or two sessions. If they ask, tell them that there's an adventure that you've been studying, and that you think everyone will enjoy, but it's much too wimpy for your normal characters.
If they agree to try it, have them make characters out of the Player's Handbook. Give everyone a few "get out of jail free" tokens to help smooth the transition to more complex play.
Now you run your adventure. Remember all those parts where you had some trouble, or you didn't think anyone would think to do something like use a skill? Go ahead and say, "I don't think I'm supposed to say anything, but if you want to make a search check, I bet there's something to find." Hopefully, over the course of the adventure they'll catch on and you won't have to hint as much.
If anything goes terribly wrong (a trap kills someone because they didn't search, a failed balance check drops them off a cliff), ask them to turn in a token, undo the bad experience, and let them try again. Again, hopefully they'll pick up the skills before they run out of tokens.
Good luck!