This is a basic question, but i'm just wondering how folks play it. The PHB says all loot can be resold for half price. Is this just for mundane gear or also magic gear? I've always allowed my players full market value for magic stuff, but I had tight control over what they got to begin with. I'm currently playing under another DM on the adventure path who only allows us to sell for half price and it seems we are falling behind the expected wealth on the Character Wealth table in the DMG. Part of it might be we have 5 players and dead characters lose all gear. Just wondering how other DM's handle magic loot. thanks.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Trade goods (gold, jewelry, statuettes, etc) should sell for full price. All other items, especially magic items should sell for half price.
Yup. Note that this will encourage the players to use item creation feats because, even if the DM does not provide a liquid market for magic items, the loss in value for selling and buying the latest greatest toys will significantly drain character wealth. On the other hand, if they sell and then create, there is no net change in wealth (just a change in xp).
Why do dead characters lose all their gear?
Because otherwise your PC's end up with extra loot or the replacement character has to be able to come in and use the deceased PC's gear.
Trade goods (gold, jewelry, statuettes, etc) should sell for full price. All other items, especially magic items should sell for half price.Yup. Note that this will encourage the players to use item creation feats because, even if the DM does not provide a liquid market for magic items, the loss in value for selling and buying the latest greatest toys will significantly drain character wealth. On the other hand, if they sell and then create, there is no net change in wealth (just a change in xp).
Why do dead characters lose all their gear?Because otherwise your PC's end up with extra loot or the replacement character has to be able to come in and use the deceased PC's gear.
Exactly, we just haven't had the resources, clerical or fiscal, to raise anyone yet so we usually go with a new character who does start at suggested wealth. it still seems that we fall behind in wealth though. maybe it's just that there has been very little in SCAP anyone wanted to use so we pretty much sell everything and try to buy at inflated prices (for arms and armor in SCAP anyway). item creation does help, but hard to use a valuable feat on that when you prob needed something to save your butt in the next major battle, point taken though. i guess i often tailor treasure in my game more to my player's immediate needs. thanks though.
Exactly, we just haven't had the resources, clerical or fiscal, to raise anyone yet so we usually go with a new character who does start at suggested wealth. it still seems that we fall behind in wealth though.
This might be true - but I'll believe players saying they are to poor when I see an an accounting ledger noterized by a Chartered Accountant proving it, and maybe not even then.
My players cry and cry about their poor status but their amazingly good at forgetting the fact that the scrolls they copied into their spell book had value. The powerful scroll they stashed away for a rainy day had value. The Wand of Cure Light Wounds they all bought for the cleric had value etc.
They look at the charts and see that they are supposed to have some massive wealth and then they count up the magic items they use all the time and notice that its not as high as the chart - then they cry rivers of tears.
...point taken though. i guess i often tailor treasure in my game more to my player's immediate needs. thanks though.
Whoah - your the DM?
OK if you think there is a problem then there probably is. You can allow them to sell masterwork and magical loot for 75%. That should close the gap somewhat. Finally you could allow them to make magic items and sell those for 75%. That keeps thier selling nature within reason but still allows them to make some profit.
You can choose to tailor the treasure of course but that seems to be a lot of work. Plus it usually makes the dungeon seem somewhat less authentic if the treasure hoarde always has whats desired. Also players can sometimes be pretty resourcful. Just because you don't think they would like a certian magic item does not mean that actually they think its great and use it in a manner you might not have thought of. If treasure really is falling behind you can always add more.
Nothing against it or those that use it, but I never pay attention to that chart.
I don't agree that there should be a standard for how much money PC Bob has vs. PC Frank while at lv X. They're two competely different people, doing different quests, missions, tasks, whatever...
You have to consider more than just the CR of what they killed, their lv, or some chart. I've always worked with loot according to how the story is going. Some enemies have loot, other don't. It happens.
-Kurocyn
Nothing against it or those that use it, but I never pay attention to that chart.
I don't agree that there should be a standard for how much money PC Bob has vs. PC Frank while at lv X. They're two competely different people, doing different quests, missions, tasks, whatever...
You have to consider more than just the CR of what they killed, their lv, or some chart. I've always worked with loot according to how the story is going. Some enemies have loot, other don't. It happens.
-Kurocyn
The weak point of this is that if you seriously discard the loot by level system (as opposed to just being tolerant toward some highs and lows) you also pretty much have to toss out the CR system. Their basically intertwined as a CR is a challenge to X characters of X level with X amount of loot. Characters with substantially less loot are significantly weaker then average while those with substantially more loot are significantly more powerful then their level would otherwise indicate.
This is especially true if the Characters are allowed to use their loot to buy magic items. Inventive players with a lot of spare cash can seriously disrupt play balance.
The weak point of this is that if you seriously discard the loot by level system (as opposed to just being tolerant toward some highs and lows) you also pretty much have to toss out the CR system. Their basically intertwined as a CR is a challenge to X characters of X level with X amount of loot. Characters with substantially less loot are significantly weaker then average while those with substantially more loot are significantly more powerful then their level would otherwise indicate.
So, lv 3 aristocrat Phil with X-thousand gold is more capable of higher CRs than lv 3 scout Mary, lv 3 fighter Joe, lv 2 bard Susan, and lv 3 cleric Tom with X silver each? Doesn't seem right to me...
CR doesn't rely on their loot. It relies on their level, if they do/don't have magical healing capabilities, being at full HP, and having full spell slots. Yes, their loot may play a part in this, but it is not a major factor. (unless they're buying out entire shops while in town or something)
This is especially true if the Characters are allowed to use their loot to buy magic items. Inventive players with a lot of spare cash can seriously disrupt play balance.
True. But even a non-inventive PC with enough cash can seriously jack up a game. If they're buying that much, limit what the shop has. And if they're just being clever, reward them. You don't have to have tons of gold to buy what you need/can help you...
All I'm saying is that just because they're at a certain lv, shouldn't mean that they automatically get X money.
Why should a gained level merit an increase in wealth? If they earn it, then ok. But make sure that it's from their efforts, not some chart.
Conversely, if they aquire ( not the DM giving it, them obtaining it ) more loot than the chart allows, why complain? Why couldn't a level 1 party manage to rob a bank, raid a bandit camp in the night, or sneak into a dragon's lair while it was out? It's obvious that they're going to exceed the chart just a bit there. And, yes, there's probably going to be repercussions (i.e. - townfolk/bandits/dragon wanting their treasure back), but that's to be expected.
-Kurocyn
This is a basic question, but i'm just wondering how folks play it. The PHB says all loot can be resold for half price. Is this just for mundane gear or also magic gear? I've always allowed my players full market value for magic stuff, but I had tight control over what they got to begin with. I'm currently playing under another DM on the adventure path who only allows us to sell for half price and it seems we are falling behind the expected wealth on the Character Wealth table in the DMG. Part of it might be we have 5 players and dead characters lose all gear. Just wondering how other DM's handle magic loot. thanks.
I've always gone by what the PHB says, but I also do the 'magic shoppe on every corner' thing too. I also make sure that NPCs (at least the kind that are meant to be PC fodder) are equipped with what I consider 'standard' items; rings of protection, cloaks of resistance, ability boosters and other items that grant flat bonuses that any character can use. In my mind if a player wants a bunch of items that have weird abilities (even if from DMG), there's nothing wrong with the character falling behind in wealth.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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So, lv 3 aristocrat Phil with X-thousand gold is more capable of higher CRs than lv 3 scout Mary, lv 3 fighter Joe, lv 2 bard Susan, and lv 3 cleric Tom with X silver each? Doesn't seem right to me...
1. This is a poor comparison to make your point. You've changed three variables (class, number of party members, and wealth). However, the only variable being discussed is wealth, so a more infomrative comparison would leave all other characteristics static and only vary wealth. With that as the proper metric for comparison, I would submit that a 1st level fighter with a +5 sword is a lot more powerful than a 1st level fighter with a normal sword. The fighter with the +5 sword has an extra 25% chance of hitting and does an extra 52% damage. That's fairly significant.
Another illustrative example would be a 1st level wizard with a wand of magic missile at caster level 9th. Such a wand would do 5d4+5 damage and always hit. That's an average of 17.5 damage and a minimum of 9 points. That's enough to kill the average CR 1 humanoid with a minimal level of resource expenditure.
2. Even if we wanted to use the skewed frame of reference provided, yes, the 3rd level aristorcrat can mop the floor against a party of adventures with the right equipment. Boots of flying, +5 plate mail, a ring of spell turning, and a necklace of missiles would do the job nicely.
CR doesn't rely on their loot. It relies on their level, if they do/don't have magical healing capabilities, being at full HP, and having full spell slots. Yes, their loot may play a part in this, but it is not a major factor. (unless they're buying out entire shops while in town or something)
See above. Yes, CR relies on loot because loot can vastly change the capabilities of a party and it is a major factor. +5 plate at 1st level means you will not get hit by creatures of an appropriate CR except on a natural 20.
All I'm saying is that just because they're at a certain lv, shouldn't mean that they automatically get X money.
Why should a gained level merit an increase in wealth? If they earn it, then ok. But make sure that it's from their efforts, not some chart.
And the core rules support that statement. Note that during the process for leveling up, at no point does it say "increase gp wealth of the character to match the table in the DMG." The table is a reference point for bringing in higher level characters so that they are appropriately equipped. Wealth is gained during the course of adventuring, and the amount of wealth that is appropriate for the CR's of that level is shown using that table. Obviously there will be variance, but it is a useful tool for determining the power level of the characters in your game.
Conversely, if they aquire ( not the DM giving it, them obtaining it ) more loot than the chart allows, why complain? Why couldn't a level 1 party manage to rob a bank, raid a bandit camp in the night, or sneak into a dragon's lair while it was out? It's obvious that they're going to exceed the chart just a bit there. And, yes, there's probably going to be repercussions (i.e. - townfolk/bandits/dragon wanting their treasure back), but that's to be expected.
As Jeremy pointed out, there can and will be variance from level to level as compared to the chart. It's not as if you should sit down every time the characters level and set their wealth at the exact amount listed in the DMG. However, treasure and challenges should be of a similar scale to allow the game mechanics to work properly. Attempts to match the real way in which wealth is distributed, concentrated, and guarded outside of the tools provided in the DMG may increase "realism" but will come at the cost of game balance.
Trade goods (gold, jewelry, statuettes, etc) should sell for full price. All other items, especially magic items should sell for half price.
Why do dead characters lose all their gear?
Why? That depends, do you let newly generated characts bring in all new gear? If so two or three deaths in the party doubles the number of magic items the party has, and all it cost the players was 15 minutes of rolling a few dice.
To answer the original question, all loot in my game can be sold at half price to the locals. This includes magic stuff.
Why?
The Core rule books say so.
This is a critical factor in treasure creation lists.
If the party finds a neat item that they want to use then bang! it is worth all 8,00gp of the hard work that they spent to get it. If they choose not to use the items they work hard to get in the dungeons, why should they just be able to trade it in for exactly what they want at the same price? If they could do that then as a DM you should just let THEM tell YOU what's in the treasure chest. That would save game time IMO.
Just my two coppers,
-Roth
Trade goods (gold, jewelry, statuettes, etc) should sell for full price. All other items, especially magic items should sell for half price.
I agree with this, it can seriously unbalance a game if the PC's don't have to work hard for the things on their wish list. If you want to add something extra, try giving the PC's a charisma check to see if they can get a better price. A roll of 1 decreases the price, it adds the haggling system into the game for a bit of realism but takes up some game time.
Why do dead characters lose all their gear?
Dead characters should lose their gear! Think about it, if your friend/comrade dies would you give his/her gear to a stranger who came along. No way, you'de send it or it's value back to his/her next of kin.
My "example," was only aimed at loot being factored into CR, not to be a standard, nor was it in any way supposed to be party 1 vs. party 2.
As for all of the gear that lv 1 had, why not just give him a couple rings of 3 wishes while you're at it. I did mention limiting what they can get...
A lv 1 with enough gear/loot could take on anything, so why bother calculating it into CR? If the DM allows PCs to have such wealth and gear, then yeah, the CRs are going to rise, but what's the point of gaming like that?
I usually lean towards limiting magical loot anyway. Maybe a shop here and there, or the unexpected item or two in a dungeon, but not a shop on every corner, nor X items in every dungeon. But that's just the way I DM.
I've always focused more on what the PC can do with his/her own abilities and mundane gear than what magical items or enhancements can do. This way, I can figure the CRs around the PCs, not their loot. As such, I don't find it necessary to use that chart.
The reason that I pointed it out in the first place is that whenever I hear about it, it seems that the DM is already having to plan out what he can "give"/take away from the PCs to bring them closer to "standards," as per the chart. ( by give, I mean the unexpected "oh, look what just happened to be in the chest!" )
As for the selling of loot, yes, I think 50% regular price is good.
Dead party member? Divide the gear, save for anything that his kin would obviously want back. i.e. - wedding ring +1, shield with family crest on it, his ancestor's sword, etc... And said items should be delivered to the family with his/her body by the party, if the situation allows of course. ( Don't pull the grave in the middle of the woods and a letter to the family kinda thing... )
-Kurocyn
While I do dislike keeping track of party wealth and like to let them rise and fall on their own fortunes, it all boils down to the table in the book being a nice tool. Think something's out of whack and want to check to make sure your party isn't over/under equipped? Check the table. Can't decide when it would be a good time to introduce the +3 sword you've been wanting to give them, or can't decide whether to make the villain's sword +1 or +2? Check the table. (Granted, the villain's sword isn't a really good example, since there's another table for NPC gear).
Typically speaking, I just roll on the random treasure generator and don't fudge rolls, and trust the laws of probability to keep my party more or less on track with their expected wealth. The only time I fudge it is when I get something like an 8gp piece of quartz in a mature dragon's horde. Sorry, doesn't make too much sense, multiply that by 100. That's a fairly rare occurence, however, and I can live with the relatively small shift in wealth that brings. I doubt that it would even be enough to remove them from the standard range of wealth per level. But, I also don't care enough to actually check on it!
Again, I would only use the chart to confirm or disprove suspicions I might have about the party being too well or under equipped, and thus far, I haven't had to use it, but I'm glad that it's there should I need it.
Typically speaking, I just roll on the random treasure generator and don't fudge rolls, and trust the laws of probability to keep my party more or less on track with their expected wealth. The only time I fudge it is when I get something like an 8gp piece of quartz in a mature dragon's horde. Sorry, doesn't make too much sense, multiply that by 100...
Though sometimes-- if it comes up early enough in your adventure design-- a result like that can spark creative ideas and subplots. (Like, within a moment of reading your sentence, I imagined the dragon had been forced to flee his old horde... and probably had plans to return. Plans the PCs might intercept and decide to implement, if they feel they could take on whatever drove this dragon away...)