RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I know everyone has built a character concept who had some really nifty feats that allowed them to do all kinds of crazy things (especially with all the newer rulebooks) but I'm asking everyone to look back to the Core Rules - the Feats presented in the 3.5 PHB. What is the best feat combo you've ever come up with using only the things you found in that book? (Feat combos should be 2 or 3 feats that work well together.)
My personal favorite? Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes. I trip you. You get up and provoke an AoO which I use to trip you again and follow it up with my regular attack at the same attack bonus. Rinse, lather, repeat.
I know everyone has built a character concept who had some really nifty feats that allowed them to do all kinds of crazy things (especially with all the newer rulebooks) but I'm asking everyone to look back to the Core Rules - the Feats presented in the 3.5 PHB. What is the best feat combo you've ever come up with using only the things you found in that book? (Feat combos should be 2 or 3 feats that work well together.)
My personal favorite? Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes. I trip you. You get up and provoke an AoO which I use to trip you again and follow it up with my regular attack at the same attack bonus. Rinse, lather, repeat.
Not to be a downer, but you can't trip someone on an AoO provoked by going from prone to standing. The AoO happens as they begin to stand so you can't trip them again until your next turn (with improved trip of course).
Erm... Skill Focus (Diplomacy) and Power Attack. Why? Well, it makes for a good Cuthbertine cleric, don't you think?
Not to be a downer, but you can't trip someone on an AoO provoked by going from prone to standing. The AoO happens as they begin to stand so you can't trip them again until your next turn (with improved trip of course).
True. You can, however, ready an action to trip them again when they stand up. This doesn't need Combat Reflexes, of course!
Not to be a downer, but you can't trip someone on an AoO provoked by going from prone to standing. The AoO happens as they begin to stand so you can't trip them again until your next turn (with improved trip of course).True. You can, however, ready an action to trip them again when they stand up. This doesn't need Combat Reflexes, of course!
Of course, since readying takes up your standard action for the round you couldn't trip them up unless someone else had already knocked them down, and you managed to go before the tripped opponent stood back up (so you could ready the action in the first place).
I know everyone has built a character concept who had some really nifty feats that allowed them to do all kinds of crazy things (especially with all the newer rulebooks) but I'm asking everyone to look back to the Core Rules - the Feats presented in the 3.5 PHB. What is the best feat combo you've ever come up with using only the things you found in that book? (Feat combos should be 2 or 3 feats that work well together.)
My personal favorite? Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes. I trip you. You get up and provoke an AoO which I use to trip you again and follow it up with my regular attack at the same attack bonus. Rinse, lather, repeat.
Although its not implicitely outlined in the PHB, you cannot use special abilities or feats as part of an attack of opportunity unless the special ability or feat is one that does not take an action to initiate or lasts until the start of your next turn (such as Power Attack). Otherwise, people would abuse your option to the point where the DM would be tearing his hair out and/or using the tactic all the time himself (I've seen both happen in a game).
I have new respect for the old Power Attack / Cleave / Great Cleave.
The dwarf fighter in my group recently charged into a nest of kobolds, provoking all the usual attacks. The next round, after being surrounded, he proceeded to literally "clear the deck" by Great Cleaving ALL EIGHT KOBOLDS.
We laughed hard at that one, especially since the player loves to have his dwarf take up a war song in battle. We mimiced his hacking away in time to the beat... :-)
-Roth
improved feint, persuasive, and skill focus (bluff)
add: rogue levels
'nuff said.
tog
Hmmmm... My favorite is Two-Weapon Fighting tree and Improved Shield Bash. That's right, extra attacks per round and still get the AC from the shied. I had a cleric that fought that way from level 3 all the way to level 21. Loved that character. One of my most remembered.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Not to be a downer, but you can't trip someone on an AoO provoked by going from prone to standing. The AoO happens as they begin to stand so you can't trip them again until your next turn (with improved trip of course).
Not if you win initiative. It states that they get to stand on their NEXT TURN. Which means, in the initiative order:
*MY TURN*
Me: *trip*
Thug: *falls*
*THUG'S TURN*
Thug: *stands and provokes AoO*
Me: *uses AoO to trip again*
And I saw somewhere specifically that you CAN use any action that takes the place of an attack (Grapple, Trip, Sunder, Disarm, etc.) as an AoO. I can't remember where, though.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Read your FAQ. The person isn't standing when they provoke, so you can't trip them again. You can trip them on your own action, once they have stood up, but you can't trip them when they are standing up (because they are not standing until the action completes). You do get the +4 to hit for them being prone when they provoked.
Not if you win initiative. It states that they get to stand on their NEXT TURN. Which means, in the initiative order:*MY TURN*
Me: *trip*
Thug: *falls*
*THUG'S TURN*
Thug: *stands and provokes AoO*
Me: *uses AoO to trip again*And I saw somewhere specifically that you CAN use any action that takes the place of an attack (Grapple, Trip, Sunder, Disarm, etc.) as an AoO. I can't remember where, though.
Umm, you are letting the RAW get in the way of fun!!! To stand up from being prone, one generally has to use another apendage, such as an arm. This apendage can be swept out form under you, nullifying you attempt to stand. Its not a "trip" per se, but a "oh HELL no you ain't getytin back up!!". But its easier to adjudicate as a trip attack, which can be used in an AoO. My $.02.
Umm, you are letting the RAW get in the way of fun!!!
Fun for who? If the players know that this is a valid tactic, you will see an escalation of tripping beyond reason in the game. You as the DM will not be able to have standing humanoid-shaped characters as enemies, unless they are specifically dwarven defenders who focus on staying upright (!). It's much better, for game balance reasons, that a single character cannot use an AoO to prevent a character from standing.
Now, this does not in any way prevent two characters from ganging up on a single individual, one tripping and the other readying an action to trip the opponent as soon as he would be standing again.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Although its not implicitely outlined in the PHB, you cannot use special abilities or feats as part of an attack of opportunity unless the special ability or feat is one that does not take an action to initiate or lasts until the start of your next turn (such as Power Attack). Otherwise, people would abuse your option to the point where the DM would be tearing his hair out and/or using the tactic all the time himself (I've seen both happen in a game).
Sure you can. Trip, disarm, and sunder all take the place of attacks. Whenever you can make an attack, you can take one of these actions instead.
These attack forms substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity.
The line of reasoning regarding tripping a standing up opponent is correct - the AoO interupts the action that provokes it, which in this case is standing up. Because the AoO resolves before the standing, the creature is prone and cannot be tripped again.
(The voice of experience - I've got the spiked chain weilding combat reflexes improved tripping monster your mother warned you about in my campaign).
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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The line of reasoning regarding tripping a standing up opponent is correct - the AoO interupts the action that provokes it, which in this case is standing up. Because the AoO resolves before the standing, the creature is prone and cannot be tripped again.
What about the Stunning Fist feat? If that were used as the AoO in this situation and the creature failed the save, would it be prevented from standing?
I can't tell if there is still confusion regarding the issue on tripping on this thread.
From what I understand, you CANNOT trip an opponent who is getting up from prone because your attack occurs while the victim is still considered prone. This is still not so good for the prone guy as the attacker is getting the +4 bonus.
Umm, you are letting the RAW get in the way of fun!!!Fun for who? If the players know that this is a valid tactic.... blah blah blah :)
So? What're the bad guys friends doing? What about Ogres? Or Anything 4 legged? Or flying enemies, or any number of other things? One could use the "valid tactic" arguement for anything that works regularly, like swinging a sword. Its just that tripping means the BBEG can't hit back. YMMV :)
I can't tell if there is still confusion regarding the issue on tripping on this thread.
From what I understand, you CANNOT trip an opponent who is getting up from prone because your attack occurs while the victim is still considered prone. This is still not so good for the prone guy as the attacker is getting the +4 bonus.
This is the point where the Power Attack comes in play though :)
Thanks for discussing this, and specifically to Sebastian for his clarification (which no offense to others, I trust a great deal), as I have the same fighter in my party.
The other night he had me at my wit's end because of this very situation- he kept tripping my NPC as he was trying to get up, and I thought it seemed legal, if overpowered. The level 8 fighter in question never got to hit once. He spent the whole combat either prone or picking up his weapon. The spiked chain wielder in my campaign consistently trips, disarms and otherwise makes my life difficult when I use humanoids as foes, but the campaign is very human-centric.
I was considering all of the following:
1) reduce the EL of encounters involving humanoids by one or two, as he has a specific advantage that I don't want to be limited by when preparing encounters (for instance, all my NPC humanoids would have to have improved trip, stability or improved unarmed strike or something)
1a) simply give all NPC's one of those feats as a Bonus feat (kinda weak & dishonest)
2) simply eliminate humanoids from the gameworld (not that palatable as a) it's railroading and unfair to other players and b) the NPC's in this world are close to 75% human and, as mentioned previosuly, the flavor of the gameworld demands often crossing paths with humanoid foes and less so with dragons, undead, animals, etc. because of the modernity of the setting.
3) Devouring the spiked chain wielder with another Tyrannosaurus, as has happened before... Oh woe to ressurection.
Now I think I see the light at the end of the tunnel. Lets just hope its not another spiked chain wielding fighter with a flashlight.. *g* Thanks again for the imformative discussion.
By the way (to get back on topic) I really like the combo of Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summons and Extend Spell... The summoner trifecta and useful even at low level (I have a third level Human cleric of Farlanghn who uses this combo almost every session) but especially at high level, when some conjuration spells do damage and require a save and having a nice summon around for 24 rounds or so can be a boon indeed..
Boy, if this wasn't Core Feat combos, you would have to list the Corspecrafter tree. Those add some great abilities to undead. And for you tripping fighter, I like the idea of fight fire with fire, but imagine if you put a large fighter with reach... You could out reach him, then add Large and in Charge for a feat and then he wouldn't be able to get close to him... I am EVIL... Now I need to go make my Corpsecrafted army to harass the party of adventurers... :)
Umm, you are letting the RAW get in the way of fun!!! To stand up from being prone, one generally has to use another apendage, such as an arm. This apendage can be swept out form under you, nullifying you attempt to stand. Its not a "trip" per se, but a "oh HELL no you ain't getytin back up!!". But its easier to adjudicate as a trip attack, which can be used in an AoO. My $.02.
I have a trip happy player - this is using RAW to take a totally unbalanced ability and add some slight smidgen of balance back to it. Only a smidgeon mind you.
The other night he had me at my wit's end because of this very situation- he kept tripping my NPC as he was trying to get up, and I thought it seemed legal, if overpowered. The level 8 fighter in question never got to hit once. He spent the whole combat either prone or picking up his weapon. The spiked chain wielder in my campaign consistently trips, disarms and otherwise makes my life difficult when I use humanoids as foes, but the campaign is very human-centric.
Note that even if the guy can get up he's still in a world of hurt. Tripping in general is one of the most unbalanced feats in the book when combined with improved trip. Its one of the very few attacks that us dead easy to pull off (touch attack) and then comes down to a die roll that takes absolutely no account of the oppositions level. A tripper is already going to be working hard to add as many of these modifiers to their build and Improved trip gives out a base +4 right there.
Furthermore when it works your getting slews of benefits. You get to try and hit the guy on the way down. Everyone then gets to hit him while he's down with a +4 bonus. He's lost his ability to make most Attacks of Opportunity and finally everyone nearby will get an Attack of Opportunity when the guy tries to stand up - again with +4 to hit. Essentially Tripping an opponent allows the tripper to attack a victim 3 times a round instead of just once and often means his friends get extra attacks as well. Finally when the guy has managed to actually stand up he has used up a move action which means he can no longer do a full round attack. So for a melee combatant type he's very limited in the amount of damage he can possibly dish out to you. If you even have only a 40% chance of pulling off the trip its generally worth while to take a shot at it. At worst your going to loose your chain - your a high strength fighter, so of course you carry 4 back up spiked chains at all times right?
Sure there are ways a DM can get around this - only use huge four legged creatures but this is very limiting in terms of play.
Personally I added a rule in my campaign to limit the impact without totally nerfing the feat. I allow a 5' crawl (call it a combat roll). also there are some feats in later books that can give a character benefits to being tripped or disarmed etc. I often give some feats like this to my bad guys under the assumption that the combo is so powerful that presumably everyone is doing it or at least everyone assumes that there is a significant possibility of this sort of thing taking place.
Still its really a broken combo - I mean I have been considering using it for things like leveled Ogres etc. and I tend to hesitate. One of the few areas in the rules where I start to seriously think that if I play back at the players using the tactics they are using against the monsters It will turn into an easy breezy TPK with the players just being massacred. I really hate rules that are so busted that the DM can't use them for fear of a total slaughter - that said I am going to use them and if it turns into a TPK well then so be it. After that the players and myself can discuss truly nerfing the feat or they can instead start spending their feat slots on things that will help them avoid getting tripped in the first place.
Not if you win initiative. It states that they get to stand on their NEXT TURN. Which means, in the initiative order:*MY TURN*
Me: *trip*
Thug: *falls*
*THUG'S TURN*
Thug: *stands and provokes AoO*
Me: *uses AoO to trip again*
I like Improved Trip too. But here's my interpretation of the rules involved:
Round 1*my turn (assuming I won initiative)
Me: trip (assume it succeeds)
thug: falls
Me: attack (now prone) thug with +4 to hit
(since improved trip lets you attack if your trip is successful)
Thug: stands up (provoking attack of opportunity)
Me: attack again, with +4 to hit (since Thug is technically still prone, and thus can't be tripped again.... yet)
Thug: attacks me back
Round 2
Me: trip again
etc.
Thanks for the input Jeremy MacDonald. I appreciate your ideas and I think we see this in a very similar light. Now if I could convince my group of the same. Incidentally, they nearly cried when they faced a dracolich with the Large and in Charge feat and Awesome Blow in the last campaign.
I think maybe one answer may lie in another potent feat/class combo- The Monk with Improved Trip, Disarm and Grapple, (& maybe skill focus (tumble)) and a hellacious strength score. Have him come at the chain wielder with a weapon, begging him to disarm him, and basically let the chain wielder disarm him, then have him disarm the chain wielder and subsequently trip him. Heck if you could enlarge the monk or otherwise buff him with a caster, even better. Even if the monk winds up in the dirt, tripped, have him tumble up and flurry of blows the guy. Could be fun *grin* if only for the dramatic effect.
Can't believe no one has any love for the spring attack tree, both as a basic tactic, and as a counter to the chain wielding tripper of doom. Its too much fun, esp if you have a high mobility class (monk esp)
Not if you win initiative. It states that they get to stand on their NEXT TURN. Which means, in the initiative order:*MY TURN*
Me: *trip*
Thug: *falls*
*THUG'S TURN*
Thug: *stands and provokes AoO*
Me: *uses AoO to trip again*I like Improved Trip too. But here's my interpretation of the rules involved:
Round 1
*my turn (assuming I won initiative)
Me: trip (assume it succeeds)
thug: falls
Me: attack (now prone) thug with +4 to hit
(since improved trip lets you attack if your trip is successful)
Thug: stands up (provoking attack of opportunity)
Me: attack again, with +4 to hit (since Thug is technically still prone, and thus can't be tripped again.... yet)
Thug: attacks me back
Round 2
Me: trip again
etc.I have to say this is right on track with how we play it in my camapign.
Lets bring up another Core feat at this point...
Improved Grapple
I have a Fighter in my campaign who recently took the Improved Grapple feat to give the party a massive advantage against my BBEG's. The PHB states that a grappled enemy loses all Dex bonuses and threatens no squares.
My group has taken to letting this fighter rush in and grab the enemy without provoking any attacks of opportunity, then surrounding the now helpless foe and sneak attacking it to death(no dex bonus), or ranged touching it with ease.
While this is not strickly just a set of Feats turned into a combo, it is a great combo that requires nothing more than the stuff given to the players in the PHB. And it has been devastating to my monsters. :-(
Thoughts?
-Roth
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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My group has taken to letting this fighter rush in and grab the enemy without provoking any attacks of opportunity, then surrounding the now helpless foe and sneak attacking it to death(no dex bonus), or ranged touching it with ease.
I could've sworn that I saw somewhere that attacking a grappled character means that there is a certain percentage chance that you will hit one of the other characters in the grapple instead. Can anyone back me up on this or am I imagining things?
I could've sworn that I saw somewhere that attacking a grappled character means that there is a certain percentage chance that you will hit one of the other characters in the grapple instead. Can anyone back me up on this or am I imagining things?My group has taken to letting this fighter rush in and grab the enemy without provoking any attacks of opportunity, then surrounding the now helpless foe and sneak attacking it to death(no dex bonus), or ranged touching it with ease.
IIRC, ranged attacks have an equal chance of hitting any participant in the grapple, usually 50/50. This used to mess me up too, as I would bring this up every time a grapple came up and be dismissed like a doddering grand-uncle who tells you he dated Myrna Loy. Its real. It is "buried" in the table of modifiers to attacks as a footnote to grappling.
3-Roll randomly to see which grappling combatant you strike. That defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC.
Cool, I remember seeing that rule somewhere. Talk about obscure.
What about melee attacks? Wouldn't the attackers take an auto -4 penalty on attack rolls so as not to hit their buddy, similar to the -4 penalty when firing into melee (which would apply to the ranged attacks after determining who you're firing at, right?) Anyone have a reference on this?
Then of course there's the penalties for squeezing into one space - but I think that only applies if you're in the same space as an ally. Which, strangely, would make dog-piling in grapple *less and less* effective if you applied it. Weird.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Yeah, I've always done it as a random chance to hit someone in the grapple (melee or ranged). If you have the Precise Shot feat (for ranged) or Weapon Finesse (for melee), you may designate your 'desired' target and the chance to hit that target is increased by 50%. Therefore, if there are two people in a grapple, you would have a 75% chance to hit your 'desired' target and a 25% chance to hit the other target. If there were 4 people in the grapple, you would have a 37% chance to hit your desired target, and a 21% chance to hit each of the others, etc.
There are a fair number of issues surrounding grappling that can mitigate its effectiveness. Note that one can use all their natural weapons in a grapple though there is a -4 penalty to hit (so never ever grapple a dragon – it will go all claw/claw/bite/wing buffet/wing buffet/tail slap on you). Still no requirement to win a grapple check to do this. Optionally one can use grapple checks to use ones natural weaponry. Sometimes this is a better option then taking the -4 to hit.
Note also that Supernatural abilities cannot be stopped by a grapple. So if your opponent has some of these then it can use them normally.
Grapples do take into account the relative power level of the individuals involved. However I suspect from the players perspective it almost does not matter whether their buddy doing the grappling wins or looses the grapple itself - his job is to keep the BBEG occupied and without AoOs and a dexterity bonus to AC. Note however that this is very much a two way street.
The best option here would is probably to shy away from single powerful individuals (unless they are undead or nasty monsters) as opposition to the players. Keep your humanoid BBEGs working with side kicks and lackeys and the players tactic of grappling the BBEG and then having every one else gang up on him will be far less effective. Cut back on the importance of the BBEG a little - your players are probably doing this in part because they worked out that there is usually some really nasty powerful guy and that all the rest of the opposition is irrelevant - their basically trading one of their better combatants with this guy one the assumption that they come out ahead in the deal. If the BBEG does not really exist (its an enemy team) or is only slightly more relevant then the rest of the opposition your players are not going to be able to even figure out who they should grapple - plus their characters won't be able to move around with ease without the rest of the enemy team. Keep your humanoids working in social (evil) groups and your encounters should start to seem challenging again.
Cool, I remember seeing that rule somewhere. Talk about obscure.
What about melee attacks? Wouldn't the attackers take an auto -4 penalty on attack rolls so as not to hit their buddy, similar to the -4 penalty when firing into melee (which would apply to the ranged attacks after determining who you're firing at, right?) Anyone have a reference on this?
I have a reference to the reverse - no penalties for using a melee weapon against grapplers and they loose their dexterity bonus.
Then of course there's the penalties for squeezing into one space - but I think that only applies if you're in the same space as an ally. Which, strangely, would make dog-piling in grapple *less and less* effective if you applied it. Weird.
I'm pretty sceptical about this one as well. Come to think of it I'm not sure I know of any rules for sharing a space with an ally - normally speaking you can't be in the same space as another creature - grapples and animals one rides being the exception. Is there some kind of a penalty for being mounted and sharing the same space?
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DM's with trip-happy players would be wise to remind them that the most easily tripped beings in your campaign world are likely the PCs (unless you're playing the all dwarf and centaur party).
I think when the party cleric spends a combat lying on the floor unable to rise, they will start to read the rules correctly.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I think when the party cleric spends a combat lying on the floor unable to rise, they will start to read the rules correctly.
Actually, in my campaign, hardly anything ever survives to enter melee with the cleric. The party is very protective of their little heal-bot. It's kind of cute.
Can't believe no one has any love for the spring attack tree, both as a basic tactic, and as a counter to the chain wielding tripper of doom. Its too much fun, esp if you have a high mobility class (monk esp)
In my experience the chain wielder is often the answer to this guy as opposed to the victim. Spring Attack allows you to embed an attack inside your move action and makes you immune to AoOs. Now so long as you are always out of range of our tripper when it is his turn, and that means being out of range of where the tripper can move to in a move action before making an attack, your fine but that is usually unrealistic.
Now this style class usually has pretty descent touch AC so you might manage to avoid the touch attack but at the end of the day ones touch attack is almost always worse then their base AC so most times avoiding that trip attack is improbable.
Once that touch attack works this highly mobile class is in a world of hurt. Their shtick is mobility and they just lost it. Once they hit the ground their ability to move and attack is nerfed. Their move action from this point is going to be standing up and they can't embed spring attack in standing so their going to be taking an attack while they go down and again (with a +4) when they try and get up not to mention being beaten on by anyone else that happens to be around while their lying about on the floor.. Now, after they use their move action to stand they can use their remaining standard action to attack or run off but unless they can outrun our chain wielder their facing the same deal next round when the tripper goes for them again. Generally speaking high mobility classes don't like being on their back.
The Combat Expertise/Exotic Weapon (Spiked Chain)/Improved Trip/Power Attack combo (Human Fighter 2, non-Human Fighter 3) is fairly powerful, but note all the modifiers on the opposed trip check: the higher of Str or Dex mod, +4 for every size category above medium, +4 for more than two legs or exceptionally stable (dwarf). Also note that certain monsters are immune to trip attacks (oozes, swarms, and incorporeal foes). The best way to defang this combo, though: stay out of reach and use ranged/attacks and spells (Animate Rope, Blindness/Deafness, Cause Fear, Entangle, Grease, Heat Metal, Hold Person, Hypnotism/Hypnotic Pattern, Scare, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, and Web are all low-level spells that can take the character out of the fight).
The Improved Grapple/Improved Unarmed Attack can be nastier, but is generally more balanced since the grapple check modifier scales by level. There are three spells that can ruin a grappler's day, however: Fire Shield, Freedom of Movement, and Stoneskin.
The Rogue with Combat Expertise/Improved Feint/Persuasive/Skill Focus (Bluff) is probably the nastiest combo, IMO, because it's applicable in a wider range of situations and few monsters have a good Sense Motive score. However, the limits on Sneak Attacks (not useable against undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal foes) keep it from being a game-breaker.
The thing to keep in mind is that there is no one feat combo or choice of tactics that will apply in every situation. If you are having trouble in your game dealing with certain feats/tactics chosen by your players, it's probably an indication that you run encounters in a predictable manner and your players are taking advantage of it. Instead of fighting fire with fire (as a DM, you have the unfair advantage of being able to design a monster/NPC to do whatever the PC can do, only better), you should look at how you run combats and mix things up so that the PC's favorite tactics are not always the optimal choice.