RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Something I've never been terribly clear on (and one of the reasons that I don't award XP based on monster kills) is how to calculate the CR for a multi-creature encounter.
I'm the kind of DM who prefers to pit the PCs against 3 or 4 creatures of slightly lower CR than the party than one single creature with a roughly equal CR, so this problem comes up a lot: How do you know what the correct CR for the encounter is? If something is CR 1 and you fight 5 of them, is it a CR 5 encounter? That seems WAAAAY off. Do you separate it and award XP for 5 individual CR 1 encounters? That doesn't seem right either because fighting 3 hobgoblins at the same time is much harder than fighting them one at a time. I'd like some input on this. Is there some arcane formula that is supposed to be used in these cases or should I just continue doing what I have been doing and award an arbitrary amount of XP based on what seems 'adequate' for the difficulty of the encounter?
You don't give XP per CR, you give XP for overcoming a challenge level, or as it is called an Encounter Level (page 49 of the DMG)
Your 5x 1cr encounter would be a EL 5.
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First, you need to know that there is a difference between CR and EL. CRs are assigned to each monster separately, while EL is used to determine approximately how appropriate an encounter is for your party.
When figuring experience, just figure the experience for each monster or other obstacle separately. That is, if the PCs succeed at an encounter with 6 CR1 creatures, they will get the same experience as if they succeeded at 6 separate encounters with single CR1 creatures.
Note that the rules are designed such that lower-level characters get more experience than higher-level characters once past third level. This allows raised or permanently drained characters (for instance) to eventually catch up to their comrades who have not been so affected, presuming that they don't keep losing levels, of course.
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You don't give XP per CR, you give XP for overcoming a challenge level, or as it is called an Encounter Level (page 49 of the DMG)
Your 5x 1cr encounter would be a EL 5.
Nope, this is backwards.
If we assume a group of 3rd level (effective character level -- ECL) characters who have defeated five CR1 creatures. At ECL 3, a CR1 creature is worth 300 XPs. Thus the encounter is worth 1500 XPs in total. This is divided equally among the PCs, so each PC would get 375 XPs.
It's in the DMG, a table on page 49. It's not complete, as it would be near impossible to be so (I'm referencing the mixed CR entries), but it gives you a pretty good idea about what equals what.
I applaud the decision to not give XP based on monster kills. It makes encounters look like chunks of XP, and some players will then choose the hardest possible path, just to get the most XP. I hand out XP based purely on completing quests or subquests. Whether you kill a single thing the entire time, slip through unnoticed, or diplomacize everything into compliance has nothing to do with anything.
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Something I've never been terribly clear on (and one of the reasons that I don't award XP based on monster kills) is how to calculate the CR for a multi-creature encounter.
I'm the kind of DM who prefers to pit the PCs against 3 or 4 creatures of slightly lower CR than the party than one single creature with a roughly equal CR, so this problem comes up a lot: How do you know what the correct CR for the encounter is? If something is CR 1 and you fight 5 of them, is it a CR 5 encounter? That seems WAAAAY off. Do you separate it and award XP for 5 individual CR 1 encounters? That doesn't seem right either because fighting 3 hobgoblins at the same time is much harder than fighting them one at a time. I'd like some input on this. Is there some arcane formula that is supposed to be used in these cases or should I just continue doing what I have been doing and award an arbitrary amount of XP based on what seems 'adequate' for the difficulty of the encounter?
I think that some of the designers were math majors -- let me give this a shot and attempt to make it as simple as possible.
Part of the issue with low level creatures is that when the characters are higher level, a CR 1 creature almost takes no effort at all -- no matter how many of them that there are (I like the mob rules in DMG2 or is it PHB2? for that reason).
When the players are lower levels, it makes it a bit more difficult to determine Encounter Level, but then it shouldn't matter that much as they shouldn't be doing EL8 things anyway.
1 CR 3 creature is a EL 3
2 CR 3 creatures is a EL 5
4 CR 3 creatures is a EL 7
8 CR 3 creatures is a EL 9
and so on.
1 CR 6 creature is a EL 6
2 CR 6 creatures is a EL 8
4 CR 6 creatures is a EL 10
8 CR 6 creatures is a EL 12
and so on.
Basically, if you double the number of creatures, it adds 2 to the EL. Putting in an odd number of creatures makes calculating the EL more of an approximation than a science -- 5 CR 6 creatures may be an EL 11 or may be an EL 10, just kind of depends on the scenario. Also, it gets a little more difficult if you put in a variety of CR creatures -- what is the EL of a CR 4, 5, & 6 creature? around EL 8.
The experience table on page 38 of the DMG mostly supports this calculation. It gets a little fuzzier when dealing with low character levels and/or if the players are really biting off more than they can chew. It also tends to fail (IMO) if you have a whole mess of low creatures -- is 32 CR 1 creatures really a EL 11? However, as far as giving out XP, giving out the XP for each creature is mathematically correct.
All this aside, I also agree with Saern. Do what works best for your group as far as giving out XP. Use the EL calculation as a guideline for determining what your characters can take on, but do what feels best as far as handing out XP.
Hope this helps.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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EL(x,y) = 2 * log2{2^(x/2) + 2^(y/2)}
Yikes. I never got any farther than Pre-Calculus in school (Art major). This is total Greek to me. Bravo for being a math whiz, though!
I agree that ad hoc XP awards are the way to go, Saern, but I always have trouble judging what the PCs should realistically be able to tackle. If I plan a 'difficult' encounter, I want to have an EL (thanks to everyone for clarification on CR vs. EL) a level or two higher than the PCs. Similarly, I don't want to expect something to be easy and end up having it totally wipe the group because I'm bad at math.
Yikes. I never got any farther than Pre-Calculus in school (Art major). This is total Greek to me. Bravo for being a math whiz, though!
Don't you mean "total Geek to me?" ;) :P
Nope, this is backwards.
Uhm,
No it's not, barring the unlikely event that I didn't line up the lines and columns correctly the table clearly states that 5 CR 1 monsters makes a EL 5.
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Uhm,
No it's not, barring the unlikely event that I didn't line up the lines and columns correctly the table clearly states that 5 CR 1 monsters makes a EL 5.
One CR 1 monster is EL 1
Two is EL 3Four is EL 5
Five is EL 5.5 or so
But it's roughly right. The implication is, though that you multiply CR by the number of monsters to get the EL, and that is wrong, as explained in the posts above.
But it's roughly right. The implication is, though that you multiply CR by the number of monsters to get the EL, and that is wrong, as explained in the posts above.
Behold the power of misinterpretation.
What I tried to point out in my first post was that one should use table 3.1 (??) as shown on page 49 of the DMG to get the proper EL of an encounter. The 5 x CR 1 = EL 5 was taken directly from said page and table.
And you're absolutely correct that for example 5 x CR 2 = is most definitely NOT EL 10.
Everybody clear?
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Behold the power of misinterpretation.
:-) I assumed you knew the rules, but CR 1 is a funny one for summing up as you get some results that can be calculated in various ways that use the wrong principles but get the right answer.
What I tried to point out in my first post was that one should use table 3.1 (??) as shown on page 49 of the DMG to get the proper EL of an encounter. The 5 x CR 1 = EL 5 was taken directly from said page and table.And you're absolutely correct that for example 5 x CR 2 = is most definitely NOT EL 10.
Everybody clear?
Hopefully they are now.
CR's and EL's are a bit messed up in my opinion. But here is something I have found works well, not great. If you are really trying to provide a decent challenge for you players, look at what their EL would be. In this post, it was posted that the EL of 4 - CR6 creaturs is 10. Ok with that in mind, a 6th level character is a CR6. So, if your party was attacked by 4 - 6th level characters, it would be an EL 10 encounter, correct? You might see where this is going. A group of four characters that are 6th level is an EL 10 group, to provide them with an adequate encounter that is challenging, I would personally recommend pitting them against an EL 10 encounter. Now, before you start thumbing through the Monster Manual to find a CR10 creature, remember that just because they can do an EL 10 encounter, doesn't mean they can take a CR10 creature, for instance, a CR10 dragon should, fairly easily, take down a group of 4 - 6th level characters. This is the real reason that I feel the boys at Wizards have a problem with their CR/EL system. My suggestion is just to play around with them a bit. There may be some need for ad hoc xp or assigning an ad hoc CR/EL to the encounter. But when I am designing an adventure, I try to keep the parties EL in mind to provide them with a sufficient challange so not to bore them with the "Ohh look, we killed him in one round" feeling.
There is my 2 cents.
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CR's and EL's are a bit messed up in my opinion. But here is something I have found works well, not great. If you are really trying to provide a decent challenge for you players, look at what their EL would be. In this post, it was posted that the EL of 4 - CR6 creaturs is 10. Ok with that in mind, a 6th level character is a CR6. So, if your party was attacked by 4 - 6th level characters, it would be an EL 10 encounter, correct? You might see where this is going. A group of four characters that are 6th level is an EL 10 group, to provide them with an adequate encounter that is challenging, I would personally recommend pitting them against an EL 10 encounter. Now, before you start thumbing through the Monster Manual to find a CR10 creature, remember that just because they can do an EL 10 encounter, doesn't mean they can take a CR10 creature, for instance, a CR10 dragon should, fairly easily, take down a group of 4 - 6th level characters. This is the real reason that I feel the boys at Wizards have a problem with their CR/EL system. My suggestion is just to play around with them a bit. There may be some need for ad hoc xp or assigning an ad hoc CR/EL to the encounter. But when I am designing an adventure, I try to keep the parties EL in mind to provide them with a sufficient challange so not to bore them with the "Ohh look, we killed him in one round" feeling.
There is my 2 cents.
I do this pretty much anyway, though I hadn't quantified it like that. Thanks, interesting perspective.
I often use the encounter calculator on the d20srd website to figure out "mixed bag" encounters, and adjust the resultant XP up or down for the specific situation, much as suggested above. It saves me a few headaches because the bulk of my encounters are "mixed" CR encounters. The Chart in the DMG is fine, but it gets sticky quick.
P.S: I also try to liberally apply the ratio of difficult and moderate etc. encounters, and the encounter calculator helps again by furnishing the percentile. Well it has a percent sign after it, not sure if you call it a percentile, but I thought I smelled math before, so there have to be some math-heads around to ask. *g*
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CR's and EL's are a bit messed up in my opinion. But here is something I have found works well, not great. If you are really trying to provide a decent challenge for you players, look at what their EL would be. In this post, it was posted that the EL of 4 - CR6 creaturs is 10. Ok with that in mind, a 6th level character is a CR6. So, if your party was attacked by 4 - 6th level characters, it would be an EL 10 encounter, correct? You might see where this is going. A group of four characters that are 6th level is an EL 10 group, to provide them with an adequate encounter that is challenging, I would personally recommend pitting them against an EL 10 encounter. Now, before you start thumbing through the Monster Manual to find a CR10 creature, remember that just because they can do an EL 10 encounter, doesn't mean they can take a CR10 creature, for instance, a CR10 dragon should, fairly easily, take down a group of 4 - 6th level characters. This is the real reason that I feel the boys at Wizards have a problem with their CR/EL system. My suggestion is just to play around with them a bit. There may be some need for ad hoc xp or assigning an ad hoc CR/EL to the encounter. But when I am designing an adventure, I try to keep the parties EL in mind to provide them with a sufficient challange so not to bore them with the "Ohh look, we killed him in one round" feeling.
There is my 2 cents.
The idea behind EL and CR is that a party of four 6th level characters would use around 1/4 of their resources taking care of an EL 6 encounter.
Since, as you say, a party of four 6th level characters is an EL 10 then if that party were to go up against an EL 10 encounter, they should use nearly all their resources to defeat the encounter and they should expect at least one person (or more) to probably die.
Of course, this is not exactly set in stone -- there are a number of factors that can make an encounter easier or harder -- were they ambused or did they have time to prepare? environmental conditions, and other factors (anti-magic, etc.). Also if the group was prepared for encounters such as this -- did they have the appropriate weapon type for the said creature, etc. There is also the consideration of how the DM plays and how the characters play. The other thing to consider is that most parties are equipped FAR better than a "standard" creature of equivalent CR.
The point that I am trying to make is that two parties that are equipped just as well as each other and are the same levels should come extremely close to taking each other out. I consider that a little more than "challenging" unless the party has some kind of "Ace in the hole" to overcome the encounter. However, there is also an awful lot of "gray" that is easier to understand with experience.
Another fun technique that leads to memorable encounters is something that somene advocated on the boards here.
If for example you have 4 6th level players and you want to provide a difficult encounter you can give them an EL 8 (difficult) that is broken up as follows:
EL 8 /CR 8 => 2 x CR 6
you give them one CR 6 monster, the remaining CR's you can give them as you see fit, 2 CR 4's, 4 CR 2's etc.
I did this once to try it out and I got a slugfest that lasted 5 hours (realtime).
CR's and EL's are a bit messed up in my opinion. But here is something I have found works well, not great. If you are really trying to provide a decent challenge for you players, look at what their EL would be. In this post, it was posted that the EL of 4 - CR6 creaturs is 10. Ok with that in mind, a 6th level character is a CR6. So, if your party was attacked by 4 - 6th level characters, it would be an EL 10 encounter, correct? You might see where this is going. A group of four characters that are 6th level is an EL 10 group, to provide them with an adequate encounter that is challenging, I would personally recommend pitting them against an EL 10 encounter. Now, before you start thumbing through the Monster Manual to find a CR10 creature, remember that just because they can do an EL 10 encounter, doesn't mean they can take a CR10 creature, for instance, a CR10 dragon should, fairly easily, take down a group of 4 - 6th level characters. This is the real reason that I feel the boys at Wizards have a problem with their CR/EL system. My suggestion is just to play around with them a bit. There may be some need for ad hoc xp or assigning an ad hoc CR/EL to the encounter. But when I am designing an adventure, I try to keep the parties EL in mind to provide them with a sufficient challange so not to bore them with the "Ohh look, we killed him in one round" feeling.
There is my 2 cents.
I'm not sure that I would say that the CR/EL system Wizards is using is actually messed. I think what your outlining is exactly what Wizards is aiming for. Encounters tend to range from an EL equal to the party to about 4 above the party for a really tough encounter. The weaker encounters don't really challenge them in a life threatening manner - they just drain out some of the PCs resources. Encounters that are of equal EL to them should in theory be 50/50 chance of each side winning. Various factors influence that, such as just how much of the PCs resources have been used up and how well the DM has studied the bad guys and can therefore utilize their abilities but I would normally think that the encounters that are of equal EL should be used with some caution.
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EL 8 /CR 8 => 2 x CR 6
Again, EL ≠ CR, and it's misleading to imply, as I think you do above, that they are the same*. It is true, however, that one CR 8 monster is intended to be approximately an equal challenge to two CR 6 monsters and that both are Encounter Level 8. (And thus appropriate as a normal challenge for a group of four 8th level PCs or a tough challenge for a group of four 6th level PCs, for example.)
The technique you mention is a useful one, especially when you want a diverse opponent group, but it breaks down at the margins. Sixty-four CR 1 creatures aren't really equivalent to one CR 13 creature.
* Technical jargon should be used as precisely as possible, as precision is what it is intended for. When you use it imprecisely, you damage its utility for those who use it precisely.
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Uhm,No it's not, barring the unlikely event that I didn't line up the lines and columns correctly the table clearly states that 5 CR 1 monsters makes a EL 5.
Let's take a look at what you wrote:
You don't give XP per CR, ...
Incorrect. You explicitly do give XP per CR.
... you give XP for overcoming a challenge level, ...
I don't know what a "challenge level" is, but,
... or as it is called an Encounter Level (page 49 of the DMG)
This is incorrect. You do not give XP per EL, but rather figure it for the CR of each creature or other obstacle separately, then add to determine the XP for an encounter.
Your 5x 1cr encounter would be a EL 5.
This is accurate. In the context of your message, however, it implies that you should look at the CR5 line of the experience chart to determine the experience granted for the encounter rather than looking at the CR1 line and multiplying that total by 5.
The technique you mention is a useful one, especially when you want a diverse opponent group, but it breaks down at the margins. Sixty-four CR 1 creatures aren't really equivalent to one CR 13 creature.
For the same reason a hard to calculate EL also tends to have much less utility for the DM. It's when there are lots of monsters with a wide range of CRs that the actual effect in play becomes really unpredictable. Since EL is really only useful to gauge whether or not an encounter fits the DMs desired toughness level its almost a waste to calculate it if the CRs are all over the place. When the miniatures meet the mat this encounter could turn into a push over or brutalize the PCs and the actual EL probably won't help the DM predict the outcome. At the end of the day that's what EL is supposed to do. It is supposed to tell the DM what the outcome of the encounter is probably going to be.
The technique you mention is a useful one, especially when you want a diverse opponent group, but it breaks down at the margins. Sixty-four CR 1 creatures aren't really equivalent to one CR 13 creature.
I am not going to rehash all the above statements, I think I have explained my reasoning to an acceptable level (Aubrey understood what I meant, so that's good enough ;> )
Once more looking at table 3.1 on page 49.........
Did you notice that the colomns only go as far as twelve?
Do you know why this is?
Because twelve CR whatever's are only mildly challenging to a group (at the right EL). 64 cr 1 are no threat at all to an EL 13 group.
The CR for certain monsters (particularly at high levels) can be just plain wrong. James Jacobs himself has pointed this out several times, hence the adjustment for CRs of various demons in Hordes of the Abyss. ELs are perfectly fine if the CR of the monsters you choose is correct for the encounter. Just like creating balanced magic items, determining what makes up a challenging encounter is an art form. Yes, DMs are essentially artists.
Some people I know just can't wrap their heads around ELs (including one industrial arts teacher who teaches maths classes), while others make life difficult for themselves by throwing all sorts of weird monsters and NPCs together. If you find ELs difficult then keep the encounters simple by using monsters of equal CR. I do this consistently and manage to follow the 13 encounters for level rule outlined in the DMG fairly well.
Even if you get a bit more complex it's still really quite simple. Two ogres and a hill giant make up an EL of 8 (two monsters of CR 3 make an EL of 5 plus a CR 7 monster makes an EL of 8). Similarly 4 hill giants and a beholder make an EL of 14. If you keep the monsters even in number its relatively simple (as many people have already pointed out).
People have also said that when you get past 4 monsters the numbers just don't add up (how can 7 trolls be EL 11 when 9 trolls are also EL 11?). By the time that PCs are 11th-level, two trolls really makes little difference. Some people might think that sounds stupid, but its been proven in playtesting on more than one occasion.
Yeah - but think of how much fun you could have with a Fireball spell. Heh heh heh....64 cr 1 are no threat at all to an EL 13 group.
Another sad example why power corrupts......
BOOM! hehehehe
mmm, if you pack those cr 1's real tight you could kill even more of them, 128, 256, 512.
oh yeah, I remember when one of my npc's took out a whole village of refugees (all nicely cowering in a ditch) with a lightning bolt, then I raised them as zombies.
Good times.
Even if you get a bit more complex it's still really quite simple. Two ogres and a hill giant make up an EL of 8 (two monsters of CR 3 make an EL of 5 plus a CR 7 monster makes an EL of 8). Similarly 4 hill giants and a beholder make an EL of 14. If you keep the monsters even in number its relatively simple (as many people have already pointed out).People have also said that when you get past 4 monsters the numbers just don't add up (how can 7 trolls be EL 11 when 9 trolls are also EL 11?). By the time that PCs are 11th-level, two trolls really makes little difference. Some people might think that sounds stupid, but its been proven in playtesting on more than one occasion.
Even your Ogre example does not really work. To use an EL 8 encounter your PCs are about 6th level. at this level the Ogres are basically a non-factor. They don't have much chance of hitting the tough guys up front, their hps are so low that they are dead on the second hit and with lousy ACs their going to be hit twice real quick. The Hill Giant, with more then 100 hps and +16 to hit with its Great Club, however is a significant challange, far outstripping the Ogres.
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Yeah - but think of how much fun you could have with a Fireball spell. Heh heh heh....64 cr 1 are no threat at all to an EL 13 group.
For those people who really want to look at running a lot of low level creatures at a higher level party, you should look at the mob rules on pages 59-61 of the DMG2. It essentially treats masses of people/creatures as a swarm and as an individual creature rather than a whole mess of CR 1 creatures. (It also makes it a little simpler to run as well.)
Even your Ogre example does not really work. To use an EL 8 encounter your PCs are about 6th level. at this level the Ogres are basically a non-factor. They don't have much chance of hitting the tough guys up front, their hps are so low that they are dead on the second hit and with lousy ACs their going to be hit twice real quick. The Hill Giant, with more then 100 hps and +16 to hit with its Great Club, however is a significant challange, far outstripping the Ogres.
Even if you get a bit more complex it's still really quite simple. Two ogres and a hill giant make up an EL of 8 (two monsters of CR 3 make an EL of 5 plus a CR 7 monster makes an EL of 8). Similarly 4 hill giants and a beholder make an EL of 14. If you keep the monsters even in number its relatively simple (as many people have already pointed out).People have also said that when you get past 4 monsters the numbers just don't add up (how can 7 trolls be EL 11 when 9 trolls are also EL 11?). By the time that PCs are 11th-level, two trolls really makes little difference. Some people might think that sounds stupid, but its been proven in playtesting on more than one occasion.
I understand where you are coming from Jeremy. The two ogres are merely padding for this encounter to raise it to EL 8. What they do is take up space on the battlefield, take up PCs actions to effectively dispose of (at least one round for the both of them), give the hill giant more actions, and can still get lucky with a strike against a rogue or wizard to do some real damage. 2 ogres helping a hill giant is still better that a single hill giant acting alone unless you are dealing with overly large parties or other factors (hence the EL modification of 1).
I understand where you are coming from Jeremy. The two ogres are merely padding for this encounter to raise it to EL 8. What they do is take up space on the battlefield, take up PCs actions to effectively dispose of (at least one round for the both of them), give the hill giant more actions, and can still get lucky with a strike against a rogue or wizard to do some real damage. 2 ogres helping a hill giant is still better that a single hill giant acting alone unless you are dealing with overly large parties or other factors (hence the EL modification of 1).
Sure - though I think the whole concept of EL really tends to break down most of the time anyway. There is a world of difference between our two Ogres an a Hill Giant if the Ogres are just meat to slow the PCs down and the same monsters if the Ogres spring out behind the party and close with the mage in the back. Two Ogres are a real threat to a 6th level mage. With reach they are difficult for him to disengage from and they have just enough of a plus to hit that they are probably capable of landing blows against the low AC mage hit just hard enough that they are a real drain on his low hps. If the party is caught between an awesome bruiser (the Hill Giant) and mooks that are very good at threatening the mage then they are facing a much tougher encounter then the EL might imply.
So many situational circumstances heavily effect the danger level of a combat that I'm increasingly of the opinion that EL is essentially meaningless. I think placing monsters is more of an art then a science, and my bet is the majority of the DMs on this board would agree with that. CR tells us important information and the 'rule of thumb' that two creatures of the same CR are about 2 ELs harder has a lot of use for planning encounters but after that I think its more of academic interest than anything else. As it stands I think one of the most important factors influencing the EL of an encounter is whether the monsters can mob the PCs and get at the more vulnerable members or alternatively will the PCs mob the monster and have it surrounded and being potentially hit 3-4 time between every chance it has to go. Note however that this is simply not reflected in EL as it currently stands. Hence I see EL in the same manner as I might see applying mathematics to making paintings. Occasionally it might play a role but most of the time its not really useful.
It does not suprise me in the least that Fatespinner could get by without knowing how to calculate complex ELs. I feel its not really that useful a concept to begin with.