Director of Narrative
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How do you guys feel about a first level character, planning on multi-classing, holding off one of his/her feats until a later level?
I couldn't find anything specifically stating that you couldn't do it, but then again there was nothing specifically saying that you could. I am making a new character for a new game and was wanting to put off a feat choice until 2nd so I could make the prereq. We had a party character creation and campaign synopsis meeting tonight and I didn't have this question until after the DM left. Also we are trying to be anally RAW for this campaign, so I don't want to be the one to ask for some sort of concession.
What do y'all think?
Sean K Reynolds addressed this issue a while back, and you can check his site to see if the article is still there. To sum it up, the intent was for characters to take the feat immediately in a particular order.
Now, me? I see no problem with someone 'banking' their feats for later use, since they'll be spending one or more levels without any benefit from it whatsoever. They're pretty much handicapping themselves to derive a later benefit. There's probably some potential for abuse, but a reasonably intelligent person could likely spot it fairly quick.
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat.
If you're really going to be that hardcore about using the RAW, then you can't do it. If you want to know how I would argue for it, I would say that you could simply take the feat and not be able to use it until you meet the prereqs. After all, it does go on to say that if you lose the prereqs somehow, you simply can't use the feat until you meet them again. It's kind of under the same umbrella, I'm thinking.
I have to say that the idea of saving feats, as nice as it would seem, is very much contrary to RAW. I can understand wanting to do it, but it just isn't something I as a DM would allow. I see it as being a slippery slope, where the next thing people would be wanting to save skill points, so that they wouldn't have to spend them cross-class. It's just not right for a cleric, for example, to say, "There's not really a feat I want at first level, so I'll just delay it until second level, when I can take weapon focus, which is what I want." That's one of the perks of taking a full attack bonus class, or a class with a particular class skill that's required for a feat, or similar. You can get the feat earlier, and be able to build on it sooner, as opposed to our potential cleric, who has other advantages.
I agree with everything Corey Kear said.
Ah, yes. I've heard about that. I'm sad to say that I haven't had a chance to read PHB II, but I honestly wouldn't really allow a player to swap out a feat they got at a low level for a higher level feat. If they wanted to swap it out for a feat they would have qualified for at the level they originally took the feat, that I would probably allow. But allowing people to trade out low level feats in exchange for higher level ones strikes me as a bad idea, one that would lead to imbalance.
One should note that PHBII retraining does have some fairly hefty limitations upon what retraining can and can not do. I personally don't use the rules as an open forum for character who-ka-joo-ki, but I refer to them as a good framework if a character undergoes an odd revalation or change of specific path.
I recently had a fighter who began as a specialist in the bastard sword acquire a greatsword as his first +1 weapon, and used it well in a desperate combat. He wanted to focus on the greatsword, and so after a few months of downtime, I allowed shifting his exotic weapon prof for weapon focus (same prereq, same minimum level to take).
But as to the op, while it is vague, the rules ultimately state what you can do, not what you can. They state when you level up you can choose a feat you meet the prereqs for. They dont state that you can choose to delay taking the feat to take advantage of higher prereqs.
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A recent (or maybe an upcoming... I can't always keep them straight) Sage Advice tackles this very issue. The ruling: No, you can't save feats for later. It goes against the letter and the spirit of the rules.
Hey Mike - quick question - do you know what the turnaround time is from when an email is sent to Sage Advice until it's published with an answer?
As well, it seems most Sage Advice columns are centered around a few topics - do questions go in a pool to be picked when a subject has enough queries?
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I may be wrong, but I thought with the retraining option you have to prove that you would have qualified for the new feat at the time that you took the old feat that you are replacing.
Maybe it's more complicated than that, but I'm thinking you can't replace your first level feat with a feat you couldn't have taken when you were first level.
Someone with the book in front of them may know for sure about that.
That is correct. No swapping of toughness for whirlwind attack, unless, of course, you took toughness when you were eligible for whirlwind attack and later realize what an idiot you were. However, it does take time and gold to accomplish, and you can only swap one thing per level, so massive retoolings are extremely difficult. While the concept may seem too alien to many, closer examination reveals that it seems pretty balanced, actually.
Oh, and I agree about saving the feats (NO!), and I also think it's more or less against the rules to take a feat you aren't qualified for and just not benefit from it for a while. I believe a player asked me about that once, and I said no then, and I'd still say no now.
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Director of Narrative
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Word!
Thanks y'all. It's always good to get everyone's input.
Last night after I posted I was looking at my character build and realized that I had left Precise Shot out of the build and decided that that fits perfectly into that pesky human bonus feat spot that I was looking to fill.
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Contributor
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Hey Mike - quick question - do you know what the turnaround time is from when an email is sent to Sage Advice until it's published with an answer?
As well, it seems most Sage Advice columns are centered around a few topics - do questions go in a pool to be picked when a subject has enough queries?
Heh, you asked just the right person. This is something I've been wanting to address to our reading public for some time. The Sage Advice column seems to create more misconceptions than all our other columns combined!
Sit back one and all as I pull back the curtain to give a little peek at how things work...
The commonly held misconception is that Andy Collins—the Sage—receives the emails directly. Astute readers of the column no doubt note that the Sage's email address (sageadvice@paizo.com) originates from Paizo's website, not Wizards of the Coast's (actually, many readers don't even realize that Wizards of the Coast doesn't put out the magazine). Emails sent to the Sage Advice address go into an email Inbox that only one person in the company sees—me.
When an email comes in I sort it into one of eight burgeoning folders, and once a month I go through those folders looking for a set of ten to fifteen related questions. Sometimes Andy asks me for questions on a specific topic, but usually I'm free to throw at him whatever set of questions tickles my fancy that month (or to which I want to know the answers. I take all the questions, edit them for clarity and brevity, and send them off. A couple weeks later Andy sends me the answers (after he passes them around Wizards of the Coast R&D for input) and I put them in the folder for the issue they're set for (usually three months down the road).
That's the process. Andy the Sage never sees emails directly. Everything passes through the Mike filter, which has given me a unique and interesting view of D&D players. ;D
Now, to actually answer your first question: The time from emailed question to printed response varies from about four months to never. If you sent me an email the morning I compiled questions and I included your question(s) in that month's batch, you'd have about a four-month wait until you'd see the answer in print. That actually happens more often than you might think, since a good question the morning I'm putting together the batch inspires me to look for related concerns from older emails. The trick is to send me an email just the right morning. ;D
As you might imagine, the Sage receives more emails in a week than he can answer in a month, so sadly the backlog of emails stretches back several years. Many of those very old questions lack timeliness now and are destined to go unanswered, but every once in a while I go hunting for very old questions with the purpose of answering someone's three-year-old inquiry.
So there you go. I hope that answers your questions satisfactorily. :)
(PS: As an aside, there might be tons of typos in there and I apologize if there are. I'm recovering from eye sickness and all those little letters look blurry to me. Whee! ;D)
So, do all Sage Advice questions come from emails sent to sageadvice? Because I could swear that a few of my (very specific) questions have been answered through Sage Advice, and I haven't yet sent any emails in.
Or perhaps someone was sending in an email for me?
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Contributor
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So, do all Sage Advice questions come from emails sent to sageadvice? Because I could swear that a few of my (very specific) questions have been answered through Sage Advice, and I haven't yet sent any emails in.
Or perhaps someone was sending in an email for me?
That can happen for two reasons.
1. Someone emails in a question that is very similar to the one you wish to see addressed (happens all the time).
2. I see a neat question here on the boards and write it into a question for Andy. Because, you see, we at Paizo do pay attention to our readers' concerns and questions. :)
Andy the Sage never sees emails directly. Everything passes through the Mike filter, which has given me a unique and interesting view of D&D players. ;D
What are the chances of seeing some of the more "interesting" questions, as Dragon used to do in April issues?
2. I see a neat question here on the boards and write it into a question for Andy. Because, you see, we at Paizo do pay attention to our readers' concerns and questions. :)
That's cool. :-)
When an email comes in I sort it into one of eight burgeoning folders, and once a month I go through those folders looking for a set of ten to fifteen related questions. Sometimes Andy asks me for questions on a specific topic, but usually I'm free to throw at him whatever set of questions tickles my fancy that month or to which I want to know the answers.
Lol.
So Sage Advice should really be renamed "Burning Questions from Mikes Home Game."