I am playing a Paladin. One of my party members either in character or not has openly attempted to cheat the group of its treasure. He of course is playing a Chaotic Neutral mage and continues to subvert the party treasure by detecting its value only to under score the item/s true value. What should I do?
Joe,
If the Mage is doing bad deeds in the game where your Paladin has knowledge of the infractions then you (by good roleplaying and by the definition of a Paladin) must responde appropriately. Do not be afraid to call him to task in front of he other PCs where it will have better impact.
I understand that the other player will say that you are making it difficult for him to stay in the game, but you must ignore this. He made his choices true to his character concept and your response must be in kind. To let it go diminishes your character and the power behind his divine mission in life. Not responding could get your abilities reduced or removed if your god sees your lack of action as failure to duty.
On the other hand, a Paladin is not necessarily a police officer and is not required to handle all disputes personally. Let the other characters know what is going on (if your paladin has actual knowledge of the events) and have them take a vote on what justice to bring to the man. The particular faith of your Paladin may dictate the quality of your response as will the location (country or city) in which you confront him.
Remember, you are only responding to what your PC knows. The other guy is counting on that. But someday he will have to pay the piper, and you can promote this by not helping him at a crucial time.
Lastly, talk to the player. 1) ask him to knock it off as it will bring your PCs and his into serious conflict which may derail your GM's game and efforts or 2) tell him that your character will responde unkindly when he is revealed unless he makes immediate restitution to the party and confesses. This player is asking for it, but hopes to have it slide cause others will be afraid to disrupt the game over the incidents.
Go get him! He asked for it, but keep it to PC knowledge so that you are not coming across as a poor player. Stay in character! Confront him and make it his problem.
Hope it helps. Let us know.
Cheers
Joe,
If the Mage is doing bad deeds in the game where your Paladin has knowledge of the infractions then you (by good roleplaying and by the definition of a Paladin) must responde appropriately. Do not be afraid to call him to task in front of he other PCs where it will have better impact.
I understand that the other player will say that you are making it difficult for him to stay in the game, but you must ignore this. He made his choices true to his character concept and your response must be in kind. To let it go diminishes your character and the power behind his divine mission in life. Not responding could get your abilities reduced or removed if your god sees your lack of action as failure to duty.
On the other hand, a Paladin is not necessarily a police officer and is not required to handle all disputes personally. Let the other characters know what is going on (if your paladin has actual knowledge of the events) and have them take a vote on what justice to bring to the man. The particular faith of your Paladin may dictate the quality of your response as will the location (country or city) in which you confront him.
Remember, you are only responding to what your PC knows. The other guy is counting on that. But someday he will have to pay the piper, and you can promote this by not helping him at a crucial time.
Lastly, talk to the player. 1) ask him to knock it off as it will bring your PCs and his into serious conflict which may derail your GM's game and efforts or 2) tell him that your character will responde unkindly when he is revealed unless he makes immediate restitution to the party and confesses. This player is asking for it, but hopes to have it slide cause others will be afraid to disrupt the game over the incidents.
Go get him! He asked for it, but keep it to PC knowledge so that you are not coming across as a poor player. Stay in character! Confront him and make it his problem.
Hope it helps. Let us know.
Cheers
Thank you Skech I'll make note of your suggestions and see what will happen in the next gaming session.
Cheers
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In one of the campaigns I'm in, there is a CN rogue who has a tendency to use his great search check to find valuable items (usually gems and the like--things others aren't likely to miss) and uses sleight of hand to pocket them without revealing what he found.
It only took one botched check for us all to watch him stuff a gem-encrusted dagger in his pack to lose everyone's trust. Now my character follows him around when he's looting, and when it comes time to divide up loot, my character shaves off about 25% of the rogue's treasure to make up for what I assume he's been skimming.
In one of the campaigns I'm in, there is a CN rogue who has a tendency to use his great search check to find valuable items (usually gems and the like--things others aren't likely to miss) and uses sleight of hand to pocket them without revealing what he found.
That is food for thought, thank you CH.
As a DM, I do not nerf someone trying to get over on his/her fellow players by trying to cheat them out of resources in a mature game. The key is mature.
If the DM feels that the party (i.e. players) can't manage the inequity without real-world hardships, then he/she (the DM) must step in and put an end to it, even if it means running off this offensive player for the greater good which ultimately means having fun.
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I think it's rude and bad form what he's doing, but he may not be aware that he's bothering anyone.
There's a lot of games where people essentially try to mess eachother over--Monopoly, Paranoia, certain D&D campaigns.
However, I believe it is polite to let everybody in on the fact beforehand. It's one thing to play a paladin in a game where group dynamics are strong; quite another in a dysfunctional game.
Also, in Pirates of the Caribbean, Jack Sparrow is not the kind of guy you want to fall asleep around without one eye open, and the Savage Tide supposedly takes cues from that style of movie.
I'd just establish that that isn't the kind of game you signed up for if it annoys you.
I am playing a Paladin. One of my party members either in character or not has openly attempted to cheat the group of its treasure. He of course is playing a Chaotic Neutral mage and continues to subvert the party treasure by detecting its value only to under score the item/s true value. What should I do?
Being a player in the game Joe mentioned may make my opinion a little bit tainted, but I guess it isn't going to stop me!
The party member who "openly attempted to cheat the group" did not do it openly or attempt to cheat the group, and it wasn't the party's treasure he pocketed, but funds that we were going to return to the rightful owner. He did return them to her, but there was no way that any other character knew that he had the money to begin with since nobody else was there when he found it and therefore there is no need to have any response to it. Whether it is out of line or not. I don't necessarily agree with everything his character does, ex: when he decided my character should be thrown overboard from our ship because she had contracted a disease. But he is role playing, and doing a dang good job of it. The real issue here is the player acting on information the character, Joe, doesn't even know.Just to be clear I'm not attacking Joe. I'm just clarifying the situation.
Being a player in the game Joe mentioned may make my opinion a little bit tainted, but I guess it isn't going to stop me!
The party member who "openly attempted to cheat the group" did not do it openly, and it wasn't the party's treasure he tried to take but funds that we were going to return to the rightful owner.
You forgot about the attempt on the perfumes.
You forgot about the attempt on the perfumes.Being a player in the game Joe mentioned may make my opinion a little bit tainted, but I guess it isn't going to stop me!
The party member who "openly attempted to cheat the group" did not do it openly, and it wasn't the party's treasure he tried to take but funds that we were going to return to the rightful owner.
No. Actually I didn't. I just don't think that isolated incident was worth getting upset over or labeling him as a cheat. Especially since he didn't succeed.
No. Actually I didn't. I just don't think that isolated incident was worth getting upset over or labeling him as a cheat. Especially since he didn't succeed.
So he has a change of heart and he won't attempt to doing it again. He has officially repented? So there is no need to bring it up? Because he has seen the evil in his ways and all is good. Clean slate, therefore I have no choice than to forgive him. Even though there was only two isolated incidents thus far, as far as I know that is.
I'd kill him.
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Well, let me front end load this with the statement that I don't think you should act on knowledge that the character doesn't have... Until some malfeasence is brought to the attention of the group, there's no way for you to act in an according fashion.
Now, that said, since I've been reading Steve's campaign write-up I know that Joe is a Paladin of Zilchus, correct? Well, being a deciple of the God of Money and Trade, there would probably be few crimes bigger than theft and fraud. Knowingly allowing another member of the party to break with that, especially since Lavinia is/seems to be a good employer who is trying to honor her families contracts, I would think that that would be an atone or loose your paladin abilites kinda crime. I would use anything up to subduing Id if it were known that he swiped the coinpurse.
Since the situation was resolved by Id's own actions, like you say, you have no choice but to forgive him. But that doesn't mean you have to forget it happened. Maybe the temptation will be greater at some point. With demons dancing on the horizon, do you think anything other could be the case?
Well, let me front end load this with the statement that I don't think you should act on knowledge that the character doesn't have... Until some malfeasence is brought to the attention of the group, there's no way for you to act in an according fashion.
Well said Gav. Regretably the Person Playing Id, doesn't know how to do things in secret...lol. So it is both above board and in game he tells the DM what he is wanting to do.
Well said Gav. Regretably the Person Playing Id, doesn't know how to do things in secret...lol. So it is both above board and in game he tells the DM what he is wanting to do.
It is also the responsibility of the other players to separate player knowledge from character knowledge. Not all campaigns include note passing, but you can suggest it.
If the Roleplayer flaunts their actions in front of the other Players, then the DM may want to say something to that player since he's taking away from the enjoyment of the others. Enjoying something is fine, but not at the expense of others.
J-
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It is also the responsibility of the other players to separate player knowledge from character knowledge. Not all campaigns include note passing, but you can suggest it.
Yeah, sometimes you have to give yourself a 'perspective lobotomy'..."That's in my brain, not my characters". Now, you can also flatly state to your fellow player "You better hope I never find out about that. It's gonna cause problems." I don't know if that will help or goad him further, but it lets the other player know that it will be a breach of your ethos that you can't just ignore.
Some groups are really great at keeping player knowledge separate from character knowledge and the need to pass notes isn't necessary. Me being the DM of this particular group (sorry, couldn't resist the impulse to butt in), I can assure anyone interested that there is no flaunting or malicious intent on the part of the player that has Joe, Just Joe all riled up. The player is still somewhat new to the group and assumed everyone role-played at the same level he does. Unfortunately, this isn't the case and I have advised him privately that from now on he needs to pass me a note for things the rest of the players shouldn't know about so as not to create further bad feelings, which basically stem from him pocketing the sack of 100 pp on the Blue Nixie in "There Is No Honor" and not telling anyone in character about it.
He later returned it to Lavinia Vanderboren in front of the other players after that particular job was completed. There was never any evidence of him taking anything from the sack, yet the feeling has stuck with some of the other players (most especially the player of Joe) that he is out to cheat them and can never be trusted.
The player is trying very hard to role-play a CN character which is very different from his own personality. In fact, he begins with his cadet training with the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department this Sunday. In real life, that's not the kind of person he is. Trying to role-play a self-serving and fairly secretive wizard is kind of a tough thing to pull of for him. I credit him for at least trying.
The fact is, in my gaming group he is the only one that consistently tries to immerse himself in role-playing, which I really appreciate because it rubs off on the other players who are more used to hack & slash type of play and are becoming better at role-playing from influences like him.
Joe brought up this issue with the extraplanar perfume found in the Lotus Dragon hide out. The "shifty" wizard tried to downplay the nature of the chemicals that intrigued him by saying it was poison. Had he actually Bluffed the party, his intention was to study it and attempt to reproduce it as he's also an aspiring alchemist and uses the lab in Lavinia's manor frequently. It was a self-serving attempt to get his hands on the perfumes before the party just went and sold them to someone. He may have been able to turn a higher profit and perhaps shared with the others, but we'll never know.
He was caught with a good Sense Motive roll by the party's bard who then made a Bardic Knowledge check to identify the names on the bottles and surmised that they were extraplanar perfumes and probably worth a lot of gold.
In this case, I made an error and went ahead and told the group of players what they were when the wizard examined them and made the proper skill check to know what they were. When he then told the party in character they were poison and should let him study them, there was a literal chorus of "Steve, I make a Sense Motive check" and flurry of dice hitting the table.
So my fault there and shame on my players for such blatant meta-gaming.
Anyway, now that the facts are layed out, hopefully the matter can be dropped.
On to the next dysfunctional gaming group's issues...
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(sorry, couldn't resist the impulse to butt in)
Hey, you're the perfect person to butt in, Lord High Arbiter of Your Game ;)
So this seems to be mostly just two different gaming styles learning to mesh with each other. I've read about 3/4 of you campaign write up (because my schedule has been wonky beyond belief) but I've been enjoying it and it seems like you have players with some well drawn and interesting characters. It seems right that the characters of Id and Joe will grate on each other the wrong way...Joe being the devine champion for the god of accountants and Id being...well, pretty much the opposite of that. There probably should be some continued level of distrust between the two.
Since you say that Id's player (sorry forgot the name) is learning how to fit in with the group at large, I imagine, as long as everyone keeps thier cool and remembers they are playing a game, the rough edges will be smoothed off as the adventures progress. Especially after the shifty sorcerer saves a couple of asses now and then. The Sense Motive checks will probably trickle off eventually (especially when you start shooting the 'irritated DM eyes').
"On to the next dysfunctional gaming group's issues..."
Hmm? Well, in this game that I run, there's this annoying GM that no one can stand, and I was wondering.... :-)
The player is trying very hard to role-play a CN character which is very different from his own personality. In fact, he begins with his cadet training with the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department this Sunday. In real life, that's not the kind of person he is.
I may be a bit out-of-bounds for saying this: A nice guy in real life (e.g. a doctor, a governer hopeful, and a LVMPD cadet) does not necessarily equate to a nice guy at the gaming table. Its my experience that the best roleplayers of the Chaotic Evil alignment are the ones that spent 40 hours a week being Lawful Good.
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I just want to say, that now that I know the whole story, I think my previous post suffered from foot-in-mouth disease.
And I should have made the whole dysfunctional thing clearer; what I meant to say was the party is dysfunctional, not the game group itsself. I've done a few games where the in-game group dynamic was tentative, where like in Paranoia everyone is out to mess each other over to some extent.
I didn't mean to say the game itsself was dysfunctional.
Well, I'll respect the dungeon master's wishes and let it drop.
I just want to say, that now that I know the whole story, I think my previous post suffered from foot-in-mouth disease.
And I should have made the whole dysfunctional thing clearer; what I meant to say was the party is dysfunctional, not the game group itsself. I've done a few games where the in-game group dynamic was tentative, where like in Paranoia everyone is out to mess each other over to some extent.
I didn't mean to say the game itsself was dysfunctional.
Well, I'll respect the dungeon master's wishes and let it drop.
Now doesn't that feel better. Well I feel better. Thank you all for your in put and I appreciate all of what you have done. Wheather this makes me a better character, I can't say. But I know the necessity to speak from the fulness of a persons heart. GBU all.
The player is trying very hard to role-play a CN character which is very different from his own personality. In fact, he begins with his cadet training with the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department this Sunday. In real life, that's not the kind of person he is.I may be a bit out-of-bounds for saying this: A nice guy in real life (e.g. a doctor, a governer hopeful, and a LVMPD cadet) does not necessarily equate to a nice guy at the gaming table. Its my experience that the best roleplayers of the Chaotic Evil alignment are the ones that spent 40 hours a week being Lawful Good.
Too true. Too true. In this case, he is a nice guy, though, both at the game table and away from it.
Now, there's this other guy that's pretty nice outside of the game, but get him behind a DM's screen and he gets really, really mean. Oh, wait! That's me. :)
In my friend's campaign I am playing a LN Cleric of Wee Jas who is in a party with a Paladin of Pelor, who is played by a guy I respect very highly myself.
I know he objects (IC) to my casting spells with the Evil descriptor, but both as a character (who profoundly respects the Paladin also, having fought side by side through many a meat grinder) and a player I recognize the grim necessity of casting spells he may deem "evil".
For instance, for various reasons I wanted to cast the evil Visage of the Deity (Complete Divine) spell. I informed the party that I was casting VoD, but then wrote the DM a brief note stating I was doing the evil version, as I believed the Paladin would not recognize the difference in the heat of battle, and then spent the battle staying away from the Paladin so that he didn't notice my seemingly evil demeanor.
He recognized something was up, but also roleplayed his character's low intelligence, and while he had a hunch, even after the spell was over, I diverted his questions gently and we moved on.
I recognize the difference in a theft/cheating situation, but it is important to seperate the in-game dynamic from intrapersonal relationships.
I nearly had my current campaign cave because of a PvP confrontation (over treasure) that resulted from/ended in real life personality conflict.
I had to intercede because I needed to save the campaign (I wound up writing a short story based on my metagame conversations with each individual about their motivations in the group that enumerated what "actually happened" instead of the PvP TPK, and advanced the campaign a few days to represent some cool-off time. The tension dissipated immediately.), and while I ruled that I would never forbid IC conflicts between PC's, I reminded the players that I would not tolerate OOC disrespect (it's rule #3 on the big board O' DM rules) and in-fighting around my table.
Some players said they didn't want to play in a campaign where PvP was possible, but I think that you need to leave the players that choice, so that they have a position to bargain from, ie: "If you guys want to take/destroy/sell that item, you will have to go through me..." It is up to the players to not abuse that freedom, and the DM to step in if they do.
Hopefully cooler heads will prevail, but you never know. As a player, you might want to recognize that they are at least making an effort to play their character as they see it, and search for a compromise that has some RP flavor, while placating the members of the RL group. Nothing is worse than an established campaign tanking because of RL squabbles.