My campaign has been on hiatus for a while, and is about to resume, though not completely unscathed.
I had done two things that in hindsight i know were flawed DM rulings, and they complicated each other. I let the party have more magic items than would normally be appropriate for their level (5 at the time) and i let them pretty much find whatever magic items they wanted from the DMG as long as they had the 'in book' money for it (they were in one of the three largest cities for thousands of miles, i reasoned first that if the items were available commercially, this would be one of the places for it, with a delay factor based on the gp value.
So the party is now equipped with considerably more than i would normally have considered appropriate. I did not think it appropriate to just take the items back, so instead i began with the assumption that the party so equipped can start facing tougher challenges, upping their effective Party level. We also were dealing with a higher than '4 pc' party, the theoretical standard espoused in the rules standard for determining appropriate challenges. a six player group, so equipped, i felt, could be treated effectively as at least a seventh level party. The average party level had hit six at the time of the break, and one of the party is not going to be returning at the resumption of the game.
So, five overequpped sixth level characters...i think i'm not out of line in treating them as an effective eighth level party. Any feedback? Or am i just rambling again?
Probably a little too steep.
Have them robbed, attacked by monsters that can wipe the items, arrested, cursed, or whatnot. Just find a way to get the offending items of them to get them back down.
Or, *gasp*, admit you goofed and roll it back.
And don't let them buy magic items again.
You could set up a scenario where the only currency they have is their magic items - so they have to pawn them to raise the money.
Thats probably what I would do.
You could also find out that in addition to known properties the items are evil and or cursed and thus need to be destroyed. (this is my number 2 pick) I think this choice creates a lot of opportunities for role play and test the player - what do they do - use an evil item? Sell it - knowing someone else will use it? Destroy it - and there hard earned wealth? I think this kind of challenge makes the game richer.
The original owner/crafter was not amused when a key item(s) were taken from him and he comes looking for them. (I like this one best) I think this choice creates a lot of opportunities for role play and test the player - what do they do they fight to keep the item? Give it back (on what evidence, how will this guy use the item - for good for evil). What are the ramifications if they keep it return it? What do they do to the vendor?
The vendor who sold them to the party lied - and they are not what they appear to be.
Some opponent in the near future uses sunder as a preferred technique - and bashes the crap out of sme items.
Just a few choices.
Lots of way to fix the scenario you describe as part of the game.
They can handle tougher encounters than a 'standard' 6th level party, it's true. However, it's not quite as simple as just treating them as a 'standard' 8th level party, because there are some defences and abilities that the higher level characters would have that this group lack.
Therefore, you should throw tougher challenges at the party, but do it by increasing the _numbers_ of the opposition, rather than the _CR_ of the individual opponents. So, instead of one CR 8 opponent, use 2 CR 6 opponents, and so on.
Resist the tempatation to take the PCs' gear from them. That will just generate bad feeling. Instead, simply cut back on treasure awards for a while, until they get back to 'standard' wealth for their new level. (Oh, and cut back on the XP you're awarding for a while as well... but don't tell the players that you're doing this. If you tell the players, they will again feel aggrieved. But if you don't cut back on the XP, you're compounding your problems because tougher encounters means more XP, which means you need tougher encounters...)
But before you do anything...
are you sure that the PCs are actually over-equipped? In the past, I've been surprised at the amount of loot the game now assumes even at mid-levels. And a lot of DMs seem to delight in running low-gear games. But I've found that the game generally runs best when close to the recommended amounts per level.
So, it might be worth just counting up the amount of gear each PC actually has, and comparing it with the wealth-per-level table in the DMG. It might be that you actually have less of a problem than you think.
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I find that, in situations such as this, any attack against the party involving acid or fire is a DM's best friend. Thieves work to. Of course, with both of these routes you always run the risk that the attempt will fail. In that case, as suggested above, you can just admit to the players you made a mistake, and ask them to each voluntarily give something up. In order to soften the blow, you can just let them decide which item they give up. You could also think about giving them each a non-permanent, single use item (such as a potion) in compensation.
If one of the party is a cleric or worshipper of a particular diety have agents of the diety show up. Something the diety wants to happen needs the very items that the party have acquired in order to be successful.
As a side note, one of my favourite characters was an CG Avenger in Ravenloft and used a evil item (The Headsmans Ax). It was a great roleplaying factor as the character was often joining groups that had already started and sometimes they would react to the ax and its evil reputation rather than the character.
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They can handle tougher encounters than a 'standard' 6th level party, it's true. However, it's not quite as simple as just treating them as a 'standard' 8th level party, because there are some defences and abilities that the higher level characters would have that this group lack.
Therefore, you should throw tougher challenges at the party, but do it by increasing the _numbers_ of the opposition, rather than the _CR_ of the individual opponents. So, instead of one CR 8 opponent, use 2 CR 6 opponents, and so on.
Resist the tempatation to take the PCs' gear from them. That will just generate bad feeling. Instead, simply cut back on treasure awards for a while, until they get back to 'standard' wealth for their new level. (Oh, and cut back on the XP you're awarding for a while as well... but don't tell the players that you're doing this. If you tell the players, they will again feel aggrieved. But if you don't cut back on the XP, you're compounding your problems because tougher encounters means more XP, which means you need tougher encounters...)
But before you do anything...
are you sure that the PCs are actually over-equipped? In the past, I've been surprised at the amount of loot the game now assumes even at mid-levels. And a lot of DMs seem to delight in running low-gear games. But I've found that the game generally runs best when close to the recommended amounts per level.
So, it might be worth just counting up the amount of gear each PC actually has, and comparing it with the wealth-per-level table in the DMG. It might be that you actually have less of a problem than you think.
I agree with you, taking away a reward will be met with lots of disappointment from your group. How far advanced is the groups equipment? Just have a couple of adventures with a sparse amount of treasure or one-time-use items, the equipment flux will level itself off without pulling the old "railroading DM" trick. You could up the amount of creatures faced to add more challenge or just let the party be extra powerful for an adventure or 2 until it levels out (easy encounters WOULD justify the low treasure amount idea!).
An adventure where the treasure is a 5,000-10,000 gp item would draw them in but have said item destroyed before the party arrives because the head evil dude used it to summon the ___________ with as a material component. Nothing like finding 2lbs. of colored, shattered glass that used to be a fist-sized ruby.Yust a tought,
FH
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As someone who ran a game closer to a "Monty Haul" than a "miserly DM" with six-seven PC's for two years, I can tell you increasing the CR's being thrown at the PC's can often cause more trouble than it solves. Effectively, if they survive, they get more treasure from a higher level encounter, and then you have to make more difficult challanges to try to challenge them which results in more treasure(can we say "arms race"?). But your situation is still salvageable.
Simply put, tell your players you messed up and want to make the game better for everyone. Then you have two routes you could take.
1. Just reduce the treasure haul for a period of time. While having a thief steal from your players may serve as a good occasional adventure, I know it would really annoy the daylight out of me to have a DM pull this for too much of my stuff. But if the DM told me the situation, and then while still giving me the appropriate xp but a reduced amount of treasure until we're back in equilibrium, I'd react a heck of a lot better.
2. Give them treaure that requires them to invest in it to bear fruit, ie, land & titles. There are a number of books with rules governing constructing strongholds and starting guilds/kingdoms. With this in mind, even if you have a monty haul campaign, if they have to sell some of their loot (for HALF the market price remember) to take advantage of the land/title, it will balance out eventually. Additionally, you can run adventures based on the new organization/stronghold.
Either choice allows you keep your game running and prevents you from havig to take away the PC's stuff. Hope that helps.
So, five overequpped sixth level characters...i think i'm not out of line in treating them as an effective eighth level party. Any feedback? Or am i just rambling again?
I've done similar things before, as a DM, so what I would do (and what has been suggested), is to hold back on the monetary/item rewards. Instead, focus on "minor" rewards (a box of fine tobacco, an evening at a rest spa, things like that). I would treat them as perhaps a 7th level party and see how they handle it. If they're handling it okay, up the ante.
It has been suggested that you toss a deity into the mix. I wouldn't, and I'll elaborate.
It's tempting as the DM to toss something really huge (like a god) to correct your mistakes. Really really tempting - don't do it, you'll kick yourself in the ass over it later. Any chance you've had of smoothly transitioning from the status of your old campaign to the new, revised version is toast. Your players' characters are only 6th level (albeit really really well equipped). Playing the god card would be a mistake at this low level. A prophetic dream? Sure, absolutely. A visiting high-ranking member of a character's religion? Ding, great! A chance for roleplaying that doesn't rely on your Big Shiny Stick o' Beatdown is always fantastic. A god doesn't need to show up in person to be effective. The only person a god needs to demonstrate his power to is their cleric - the cleric/paladin/holy man/whatever is their divine agent on this realm of existence, and they should act according to their god's will. To wit, why gods send dreams to clerics and paladins (not my quote, but a damn good one and damn funny):
"Jozan, this is Pelor. Come in, Jozan."
"Yes, my Lord."
"J-dog, there's another wraith trying the 'atomic bomb' thing again over in Minington. Roll on over there and put the smack down, will ya?"
"I understand, my Lord."
"Good. Peace out."
Anyway, I've rambled a bit on gods, deities and their mortal agents. All my opinion, of course, and your mileage may vary. Don't play your trump cards if you have to, and go for more roleplaying-intense sessions, with a couple of opportunities to use the Shiny Beatsticks.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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How far out of line is their wealth with the DMG guidelines?
There are two answers to this problem: reduce their wealth or increase their level. I'd be inclined to hit them with some low treasure foes for a level or two to increase their level without giving them additional wealth. If they're way off the charts, you might have to break their toys.
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To tell you the truth, I do this all the time.
I am like some kind of Monty Haul/Bastard schizoid dm.
I give out beaucoup loot, then destroy it somehow.
I just have them break stuff in the middle of fights,
drop stuff, get rolled, get leaned on by the man, or whatever.
Fumble? Heh...you broke your sword. Boy are you hosed.
The way I justify it? Conan was always getting captured and losing all his stuff. Then he'd pick up a sword along the way and raise hell with it.
It came about that after a while, nobody cared how much treasure they had, because it was easy come easy go anyway.
I think adventurers should have a wil save to not spend all their loot when they leave a dungeon anyway.
There are two or three fun ways you can resolve this.
a) Matching your real world downtime, advance the world game time. Ask them what their characters did over the last five years and give them a level or two to match. Then kick off resuming your campaign like a whole new plot-- all the people who were around when you played last can easily explain any changes in attitude/ personality-- it's been five years. (Increasing their level should bring their magic item wealth into alignment with expectation much better.)
b) Give the characters a useful transit item, like a chest of holding. At some point bandits will attack, a rogue disenchant will hit, or the like-- the stuff they stored in the chest is gone. (This has many potential faults: players may feel cheated if your theft is too obvious, different characters may put different amounts of treasure in the chest, etc.) Still, our GM did this to us, and it worked out fine.
c) Thin out the loot you give, but don't worry about what effective level the PCs should be. Pretty quickly their sheet character level will rise to match their actual effective level (including magic items and such) and things will get tricky again.
I agree with those who avised against invoking blatant DM powers. I would only add "like the plauge" to their warning. That is deffinately the worst option you could choose. The situation is likely more in hand than you realize; as has been stated before, tinking with rewards is the best way to go. And DON'T TELL THEM.
Look at Eraser: Anuhld gets the rail guns and kicks major ass with them. VERY soon, the plot takes them away from him. Now, how crappy would it have been if the director just walking into the movie and said, "I'm sorry, Anuhld, but you're having it too easy with these guns, so we need to take them away."? Or if the bad guy had said, "The director has told me that I should waste this hostage if you don't drop the rail guns to restore balance between you and me!"? So don't tell them and they won't know, suspect, or complain.
So, five overequpped sixth level characters...i think i'm not out of line in treating them as an effective eighth level party. Any feedback? Or am i just rambling again?I've done similar things before, as a DM, so what I would do (and what has been suggested), is to hold back on the monetary/item rewards. Instead, focus on "minor" rewards (a box of fine tobacco, an evening at a rest spa, things like that). I would treat them as perhaps a 7th level party and see how they handle it. If they're handling it okay, up the ante.
It has been suggested that you toss a deity into the mix. I wouldn't, and I'll elaborate.
It's tempting as the DM to toss something really huge (like a god) to correct your mistakes. Really really tempting - don't do it, you'll kick yourself in the ass over it later. Any chance you've had of smoothly transitioning from the status of your old campaign to the new, revised version is toast. Your players' characters are only 6th level (albeit really really well equipped). Playing the god card would be a mistake at this low level. A prophetic dream? Sure, absolutely. A visiting high-ranking member of a character's religion? Ding, great! A chance for roleplaying that doesn't rely on your Big Shiny Stick o' Beatdown is always fantastic. A god doesn't need to show up in person to be effective. The only person a god needs to demonstrate his power to is their cleric - the cleric/paladin/holy man/whatever is their divine agent on this realm of existence, and they should act according to their god's will. To wit, why gods send dreams to clerics and paladins (not my quote, but a damn good one and damn funny):
Anyway, I've rambled a bit on gods, deities and their mortal agents. All my opinion, of...
"Jozan, this is Pelor. Come in, Jozan."
"Yes, my Lord."
"J-dog, there's another wraith trying the 'atomic bomb' thing again over in Minington. Roll on over there and put the smack down, will ya?"
"I understand, my Lord."
"Good. Peace out."
Thats actually exactly the sort of thing i was suggesting but you explained it better.
I allow players to buy any items they want... but the PCs pay the XP cost, too. I mean, honestly, what halfwit mage would trade his hard-won life experience for half the market price of an item? So, realistically speaking, this would be the only way that NPC wizards would be willing to sell magic items (I think Sean K Reynolds had a rant about a similar topic at some point).
However, to balance things, I ruled that items "purchased" for their XP value are bonded to the character, work best for him/her, have a way of finding their way back to him or her if stolen, etc. (think Arthur's Excalibur). So when the PCs find an item, they can "bind" it with xp, or use it until it's stolen, sundered, disjoined, or whatever. This house rule has saved me any number of headaches.
Of course, the PCs end up under-equipped or under-XPed, so I treat them as 1 party level lower to make up the difference, if I'm using published adventures from Dungeon magazine.
well, the consensus kind of matches my overall feelings. no big guns, but dont' baby them. make them use what they've got. limit the treasure until they're more 'caught up'
i definitely didn't see this as warranting a divine intervention, but more a case of making them work off their 'karmic bonus'....
of course, one of the fun things, and one i'm actually looking forward to....is when they try to find the people who sold these items to them before.....*grins* oooh...new subplot for mid levels...
On the treasure bonded through XP idea has possibilities and I think there was something similar in UA. Item familiars maybe. I remember the accompanying illustration showed a halfling holding up a glowing sword, blinding a couple orcs. Hello, LotR
Sundering I'd be careful with since not all characters would invest in the same type of gear. A mage using a wand/staff will eventually run out of charges. Most rods never run out of charges (some exceptions exist) so the mage investing in spell storing items would eventually lose their power anyway. A fighters weapon can be sundered, but an archer would be significantly more difficult to deal with. Also items worn (such as bracers, rings, amulets/periapts, headbands, cloaks, gloves, belts, vests, etc) can be attacked but its tricky at times to do. The thief route may work, but a parties stealthy character can prepare defences against that sort of thing, probably being familiar with such tactics him-/her- self. Probably the best is to apply a combination of approaches both have some theft and tighten up on the purse strings a little. Also it sounds like the characters won't be able to replenish their magic supplies anytime soon. It might be best to have a trial game just to pit different challenges at the party to see how much difference the equipment makes or doesn't depending on the challenges. Not necessarily doable because of time constraints, but potentially valuable in spotting possible routes to take. Also bring this concern to the players get their thoughts it might point you to a solution.
Initially posted the previous one on the wrong thread. Oh well, all fixed now.
I must say once again, I hear that grinding sound ... Fake Healer, molars crunching and scraping ;-)