Ok this is my first time posting on any non myspace site about D&D at all no idea what has been covered in here allready but i plan on reading up as i can.. anyway on to my post...
Ok i play a 3.5 / 3.0 D&D game every sunday, and the players there told me to post this because apperntly someone allowed this to happen and there are people who think it is ok...
Anyway... There is an Enchant in the DMG called "vicious" ( please i know i am bad at spelling please dont beat me up for it :P ) anyway it adds 2D6 to weapon damage and does 1D6 damge to the user... anyway we had a player use his Damage reduction on that effect and it GM allowed it ( for some ungodly reason ) anyway i wanted to post because people thought i should.it states clearly in the DMG under damage reduction that "energy" is not reduced and the "vicious" enchant classifys the damage as Energy... anyway it is kinda small fish compaired to some of the other "Broken"/"overpowered" crap 3.5 has released but i had to post it for the un-aware GM's out there... btw Down with Warmages
For starters welcome to the boards. Its nice to have you here.
I am not sure if you are asking a question. If you are looking for conformation of the vicious weapon then yes you are correct damage reduction should not reduce the damage. The energy itself is non-describe so it is also unaffected by energy resistance.
If you concerned about your DM allowing this, the best thing to do is talk to him. I can think of a multitude of reasons he might have done so. Maybe he does not understand DR, maybe he was trying to give the character a chance to shine, I don't know and you will not know either unless you check with the DM. It is important to not come off attacking him. Obviously if things are being allowed that are in conflict with the rules, it becomes extremely difficult to understand the world. If this is the case I can understand your frustration but please all DMs deserve the benefit of the doubt each and everytime. Being a DM is not easy, it is hard work.
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Welcome to Paizo!
Hope you find this board useful and friendly. The regulars are always posting links to rpg resources like encounter generators, treasure generators, etc, which should save you absolutely hours of prep time.
As to your problem, the damage feedback from a vicious weapon does not state a specific type (eg, fire, cold, sonic, force, etc), so it would be hard to justify a spell/ability like resist elements giving protection against it.
I'm assuming the player in question is either playing a non-standard race (hey! I'm a devil! The damage isn't good, so I'm immune!), or has managed to pick up an un-typed Damage Reduction from somewhere (barbarian levels?), and is applying that.
If so, he's incorrect. DR (of any type) applies only to physical blows, cuts, stabs from weapons, bites, claws etc.
Damage Reduction may protect you against a summoned creature's teeth, or a rockslide set off by transmute rock to mud, but vs direct magical damage, it's as much use as expecting Spell Resistance to prevent someone lopping off your head with an axe.
I imagine the 'vicious' ability as drawing off the life-force of the wielder, or feeding on his rage; thus the damage is being done internally. Veins are popping, tendons snapping, as the wielder flies into a foaming rage.
It doesn't matter how tough or thick your skin is, or if you are accustomed to pain, if your internal organs are haemohraging with every blow...
Such a weapon would be great as an evil intelligent item, provoking and daring its 'master' to slay all in its path, and taking control as it sees fit. If its owner dies, who cares? His opponent won't know the truth, just that the blade did a LOT of damage...Hmmm, that will be useful....
Sorry i am kinda distracted right now and i think i did not get what i was trying to say across correctly let me restart with an introduction
My name is Chris i live in CA and i have been roleplaying for about 8 years now the first Rol;eplaying i did was as a gamemaster for "Rifts" then second Ed D&D i have been playing allmost any game i could get my hands on for years i love to memorise facts and use them to better games... i hate when rules get in the way of fun but i also hate someone bending the rules due to a typo or misprint to become "twinked" i am allabout fun over rules and dont mean to come off as a rules lawyer ( witch i kinda am >< ) but yeah...
Anyway i was mostly upset because i have meet about 14 or 15 new players to the game who think this is all ok ( the whole DR to the damge on that enchat thing ) and many other twinks and i hate telling them over and over why it wont work.. i have a player who came to me with a charactor that was level 11 and on a crit could do 300 damge with one attack.... on a 15-20 Threat weapon it was insane... i mean i dont know what happened with the 3rd ed players in my home town but they all seem to be twinking themselfs for max damage... i remember my Theif in 2nd ed with a limp cuz of my 7 Dex... he was SOOOO much fun to play... but i posted that cuz i was not sure if i was looking to deep into the rules to stop twinking or if that was a common occurance... anyway guys i plan on being as helpful as possable on this message board :)
If at all possible, find some players that do not munchkin every PC. They do exist,I have been lucky enough to roleplay with many of them for the last 13 years or so. Life is too short to put up with people who do not "get" Tabletop roleplaying, it is not a wargame, it is not a CCG, it is not Evercrack or WOW, it is not The Sims, it is something a little like all of them but different.
1) Welcome aboard. *Yells over shoulder* Hey, guys, we've caught amother one! Get the altar ready!
2) No formal introductions are need on these boards.
3) Whoever thinks DR applies to a vicious weapon is full of crap or braindead. How in the world does that make any sense? Do these people also apply DR to fireballs and such? If so... wow, read the rules. A vicious weapon creates a pulse of energy between the target and the wielder, which deals the damage. I don't have my books around at the moment; is it negative energy or unclassed? If negative energy, it would actually heal an undead wielder, and living wielders could protect themselves with a death ward effect. If it's unclassed, you're SoL if you try using the thing. No two ways around it.
4) If anyone disagrees with you on this, you just tell them Saern, Mesopotamian demigod of Bathroom Decor and Paizonian Lord of the Board, disagrees with them. Then watch in triumph as they try yo find the non-existant sense in what you just said!
5) For a newbie, I highly recommend reading Place Your Rant Here and the Untitled thread if you plan on sticking around and becoming a board regular (or even if you don't!).
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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What everyone else said. Vicious weapons deal energy damage, DR does not reduce energy damage, ergo, DR does not reduce vicious weapon damage.
I don't have my books around at the moment; is it negative energy or unclassed? If negative energy, it would actually heal an undead wielder, and living wielders could protect themselves with a death ward effect. If it's unclassed, you're SoL if you try using the thing. No two ways around it.
It's unclassed energy, but your idea of having it be negative energy makes sense and is cool. Reminds me of the various drain type spells you find in the Final Fantasy series. When you use them on undead, they work in reverse and suck hit points from you and bestow them on the undead. Not quite the same thing, but flavorful and cool nonetheless.
Remember one thing that always applies to a game: the DM's word is final. If he wants to distort the play balance of the game, that's his perogative, just as it's the player's perogative to tell him why he shouldn't. House rules always have been a by-product of gaming in general, and D&D specifically, since it was first created. However, if he's just ignorant of how a rule works, it should be easy enough to correct.
"Munchkin" player characters can happen to the best of DMs. They can cause distraction and frustration. It's important for a DM to have a good dialogue with his players to maintain the balance of his campaign, or it may spiral into a long pit of abuse and counterabuse.
i hate when rules get in the way of fun but i also hate someone bending the rules due to a typo or misprint to become "twinked" i am allabout fun over rules and dont mean to come off as a rules lawyer ( witch i kinda am >< ) but yeah...
Anyway i was mostly upset because i have meet about 14 or 15 new players to the game who think this is all ok ( the whole DR to the damge on that enchat thing ) and many other twinks and i hate telling them over and over why it wont work.. i have a player who came to me with a charactor that was level 11 and on a crit could do 300 damge with one attack.... on a 15-20 Threat weapon it was insane... i mean i dont know what happened with the 3rd ed players in my home town but they all seem to be twinking themselfs for max damage... i remember my Theif in 2nd ed with a limp cuz of my 7 Dex... he was SOOOO much fun to play... but i posted that cuz i was not sure if i was looking to deep into the rules to stop twinking or if that was a common occurance... anyway guys i plan on being as helpful as possable on this message board :)
I can empathize with you Chris. I have been in situations where I might bring up to another player that a spell is personal and cannot be cast on someone else and then that person has to look over his spells and choose another. We end up having a fight take 2 hours and I get called a rules lawyer/game delayer. When you are knowledgable as a DM it is very helpful to the game, who wants a DM without knowledge the books. As a player it is a difficult situation as well as frustrating.
Quite a few of the changes from 3rd to 3.5 were done to inhibit the ability to min/max such as limiting critical range and reducing the time of buff spells.
Welcome to the Boards, Nathen. I think you'll have a good time here.
The vicious aspect of your post has already been covered in depth, so I thought I'd ask you what your beef is with warmages. So, what's your dead cow with warmages? Feel free to start a new thread for this topic.
TK
Anyway i was mostly upset because i have meet about 14 or 15 new players to the game who think this is all ok ( the whole DR to the damge on that enchat thing ) and many other twinks and i hate telling them over and over why it wont work.. i have a player who came to me with a charactor that was level 11 and on a crit could do 300 damge with one attack.... on a 15-20 Threat weapon it was insane... i mean i dont know what happened with the 3rd ed players in my home town but they all seem to be twinking themselfs for max damage... i remember my Theif in 2nd ed with a limp cuz of my 7 Dex... he was SOOOO much fun to play...
I sympathize with you here, Nathen. 2nd Edition definitely had a lower-powered, in-depth character development feel to it (at least until the Player's/DM's Options sets came out)... though that may just be nostalgia talking (and the fact that my friends and I had only just started playing the game around that time). But there has always been (and always will be) powergaming and munchkinery. It's the nature of the game, really.
But even in third edition and 3.5, low-powered characters and settings exist (take a look at the Eberron CS if you haven't already). Heck, I once played a commoner in 3.0... he was a 'sorcerer' (I had taken some feats that gave him a couple cantrips and burning hands), though obviously one whose powers paled in comparison to the real thing. But, he made it to level 8... I can't remember if he even died; I got tired of that game eventually (but not because of my character's lack of power).
But a bit of powergaming every now and then isn't a bad thing, believe it or not. It's good to explore the boundaries of the game, both role-wise and roll-wise. I've made characters who could likely beat the snot out of the 11th level damage-maxer you mentioned. The trick is balance. Unless the game I'm playing in is rediculous in premise to begin with, I always include a lot of story with my characters, no matter how 'min-maxed' they are. And I always play by the rules. I think that's the biggest thing there. If you don't play by the rules, why bother using them at all?
TK
Hey Nathen. *waves to another Rifts gamer* Welcome!
Here's a different way of thinking about it. There are many ways you can play D&D-- you have a style you'd prefer, and so do many of the people you play with. If you can convince yourself that it's not "I'm right, they're wrong", but "these are two very different ways to play contained in one book", then you have a chance to fit in.
Play the rest of this campaign like your fellow players-- mixing it up, picking the overpowered stuff, and having fun rolling tons of dice. (If it helps, think of it as a wargame instead of an RPG.) Then in a campaign on the side, see if anyone wants to try something different. Pull out a subgroup (4 or 5 players really is better, even 3 is OK), and play your way for contrast.
You'll wind up with two different "dialects" of D&D, and will hopefully be able to have fun with anyone-- some in wargame mode and some in RPG mode.
-- Scott
If "vicious" is considered energy drain, would Death Ward then protect from the damage?
I would not allow DR to protect, as many others have said. I agree that the "vicious" enhancement should damage the PC who uses a weapon enchanted with it. That's the spirit of the RAW.
Wow thanks for the in depth posts guys, really awesome i got this kind of attention on my first day here, alot of my other bordes ignored you for like 3 months... anyway.. i saw that someone here is a rifts player... ::Insert evil laughter:: anyway man i am glad to have logged on here.
so as to the reason of my post. the enchant and what have you... i also noticed enchants like "Brutal Surge" would you add those as a +1 enchat to a weapon for Ego purposes? it is not a +1 enchat in any way but for intellegant magic items what do you think?
You'll wind up with two different "dialects" of D&D, and will hopefully be able to have fun with anyone-- some in wargame mode and some in RPG mode.
-- Scott
Scott is spot on here. But, some have difficulty recognizing: 1) that there is a difference and 2) what the differences between the two are. Insert your gaming philosphy here.
As ever,
ACE
What everyone else said. Vicious weapons deal energy damage, DR does not reduce energy damage, ergo, DR does not reduce vicious weapon damage.
I don't have my books around at the moment; is it negative energy or unclassed? If negative energy, it would actually heal an undead wielder, and living wielders could protect themselves with a death ward effect. If it's unclassed, you're SoL if you try using the thing. No two ways around it.It's unclassed energy, but your idea of having it be negative energy makes sense and is cool. Reminds me of the various drain type spells you find in the Final Fantasy series. When you use them on undead, they work in reverse and suck hit points from you and bestow them on the undead. Not quite the same thing, but flavorful and cool nonetheless.
Actually in the description, the energy type is not specified. If you look at the spell used to create the item, it uses negative energy to achieve the effect. In other words, the vicious enchantment would heal undead. It also works as healing with the feat tomb-tainted soul or one of the same feat tree(can't remember which since I don't have my books).
Hey Nathen. *waves to another Rifts gamer* Welcome!
*Seconds the salute to a Rifts gamer.*
Death To Prosek!!!
Melt My Mind!!!
...nothing to see here... move along, citizen...
After seeing Lucky Number Slevin, I am more convinced than ever that Morgan Freeman should play Dr. Desmond Bradford. :)
I take it I need to see that movie.
Yes. Yes you do.
Kansas City Shuffle. One of my favorite movie bits of all time.
And, to pretend I had a point: No DR does not help against vicious.
Yes, Lucky Number Slevin is wonderful. "My nose is already broken!"
...whoops, looks like there's threadjackers off the port bow...*disappears*