So, what's the cumulative opinion on Ghostwalk?
I've been running a campaign in the setting for oh...5 weeks now. off an on with smaller sessions prior to meeting on sundays.
And well, it's going good.
I'm able to do things I haven't seen in other campaigns. Sure this is my first time DMing, so I have to thank everyone on this Messageboard for putting up with my stupid questions (in addition to being a first time DM, it was a while before I jumped back into 3rd Edition D&D from a hybrid 1e/2e kinda deal, so the adjustment hasn't been 100% complete.)
At anyrate. I'm just here to gauge opinions on the campaign option/setting- which I might add is now UPDATED; on the WoTC website there is a 3.5 conversion that includes (thank the D&D pantheon, or the ghostwalk pantheon I might say) a MAP of The Ghostwalk countries and Hikirian Peninsula.
In addition to Ghostwalk, as a book and Campaign Option...
What of Libris Mortis, as that is a sourcebook I'm turning to heavily?
Do you recommend Heroes of Horror for this setting? or would that be too much, or too little- especially considering I do not intend on adding variant rules from it that would impede gameplay or balance...?
Though I will be including some options from the Book of Vile Darkness, (and thus allowing feats from the Book of Exalted Deeds as well.) I won't be using the variant rules from that either...at least as far as Corruption scores go, though I might imply some level of addiction is possible.
If anyone IS interested in details of how I've managed things and how things are going in campaign, just ask. I've just about got my rather MASSIVE party of 8 together at last...though I may still keep them separated until things really bring them together. (I've kept some of the information separated from party member to party member, I'm afraid some info might have leaked, but nothing I wouldn't want them to know- like an opportunity to make some quick GP, besides I had them do a gather info check on that, and yes they found out about it.)
One thing I should mention, as I've mentioned in another thread,
I've allowed bonus feats that pertain to the region of origin for each of the players...that said I feel obligated to allow certain bonus feats out of Ghostwalk (and possibly Libris Mortis for the rather Libris Mortis prestige classes) for my NPCs as well as Players that AREN'T really Regional, as party members like the Deathwarden Dwarf and Ranger/Rogue, just don't have a regional bonus feat, I can slide in the bard with Dancing Blade, and maybe the Elven Ranger/Rogue with Two-Weapon Defense (which he could damn well use- but that assumes he has some history with the Sura-Khiri elves, which in his background he avoids...), but the Dwarf, I have no idea what to do with the dwarf, Divine Energy Focus? that makes sense. It is from Ghostwalk. and that'll keep the player's balanced, just about.
Questions, Comments, Criticisms and General Opinions about Ghostwalk and the other aforementioned sourcebooks?
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I own both the Ghostwalk book and Libris Mortis. Ghostwalk was interesting. The thing I like about it most is the set up of the various realms, and the interesting takes they did on elves, dwarves, and the yuan-ti. I especially liked the island of Orcus worshipping undead.
What I didn't like were three things: First, I wish they could have found away to mesh the ghost from MM with the way they did ghosts in that campaign. There were slight differences that made it annoying, but it doesn't really matter much if you only use one or the other. Second, I wish they would have done a better job linking the afterlife of Ghostwalk with something resembling standard D&D cosmology. Not that it would be difficult to do, but I just wish they had made room for it. Third, I wish they had done an overall map of the whole setting.
Overall, Ghostwalk is OK if you are looking for something different from the norm.
As for Libris Mortis, I loved that book. I didn't care for all of the monsters, and I wish they had provided an update for the Emancipated Spawn prestige class (from Savage Species). Other than that, the book was pretty cool. It had some great ways to enchance typical undead. I especially loved the Evolved Undead template.
I own both the Ghostwalk book and Libris Mortis. Ghostwalk was interesting. The thing I like about it most is the set up of the various realms, and the interesting takes they did on elves, dwarves, and the yuan-ti. I especially liked the island of Orcus worshipping undead.
What I didn't like were three things: First, I wish they could have found away to mesh the ghost from MM with the way they did ghosts in that campaign. There were slight differences that made it annoying, but it doesn't really matter much if you only use one or the other. Second, I wish they would have done a better job linking the afterlife of Ghostwalk with something resembling standard D&D cosmology. Not that it would be difficult to do, but I just wish they had made room for it. Third, I wish they had done an overall map of the whole setting.
Overall, Ghostwalk is OK if you are looking for something different from the norm.
As for Libris Mortis, I loved that book. I didn't care for all of the monsters, and I wish they had provided an update for the Emancipated Spawn prestige class (from Savage Species). Other than that, the book was pretty cool. It had some great ways to enchance typical undead. I especially loved the Evolved Undead template.
No Map?! No Map?! Infuriating fact Sir Zombie, however this was remedied by the 3.5 Conversion Update: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20031225a
You'll especially be interested in pg 18, where they provide a rather complete map of the setting, as long as you make thorough note of the details in the book, everything but something like the Monastery of Kreel is covered, which I kind of like- that way I can have it just in the manifest ward (or partly in), but outside of the spirit wood if I want.
and further maps were provided here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030627a
which I need to take part of today of to print out so I'll have them for future reference...no need to copy the ones in the book and I needed further mapping of the Warehouses.
While, I'm not thrilled with what I've read so far about Beyond the Veil, I'm fine with the setting's other takes on the cosmology, for one I'm doing the setting separate from regular settings like Faerun or Greyhawk, but not totally- including feats from Forgotten realms (well, as Ghostwalk uses them mostly, the exception being the Oil of Animate Dead, ho boy I can't wait to get that stuff into full swing) and so on.
The way they handled ghosts, well, I like to think that they improved the template- it is better improved in the Conversion update I believe. Though the massive amounts of feats and ghostly paths and so on actually seem superfluous- especially if you advance characters by Class Level instead, as I am doing...I doubt I could even convince my Ghostly monk player to take a ghostly feat even as a bonus one.
One of my favorite parts was Xaphan. I also thought Sura-Khiri was a nice touch...the yuan-ti are all the more threatening in Ghostwalk. I also liked the way they handle dwarves, though- and I believe this was intentional- they left a lot to the imagination concerning Deathwarden Dwarves as well as other dwarves, though there are certainly crafter dwarves in Tereppek and Thurkasia has Dwarves and Gnomes...some dwarves in the mining town in Salkiria...but that's really about it.
Only read BoVD and LM here; LM is great (although I found myself skipping over everything about undead metabolism). BoVD was hit and miss. I dislike their apparent presentation of "true evil" as being some insecure goth teen running around screaming, "Look at me! Look at me! I'm EVIIIL! Hey, look... please, look at me? Come on...."
Yeah, right. I don't know about anyone else's thoughts, but typically speaking, I don't think true evil runs around announcing its presence. All that fuels is Chaotic Stupid characters. Think of Emperor Palpatine, Darth Vader, Hannibal Lecter, Kevin Spacey in Seven... nothing at all like most of the villains they portrayed there.
Once I get Fiendish Codex 2, almost all use I have for the BoVD will dissappear.
Only read BoVD and LM here; LM is great (although I found myself skipping over everything about undead metabolism). BoVD was hit and miss. I dislike their apparent presentation of "true evil" as being some insecure goth teen running around screaming, "Look at me! Look at me! I'm EVIIIL! Hey, look... please, look at me? Come on...."
Yeah, right. I don't know about anyone else's thoughts, but typically speaking, I don't think true evil runs around announcing its presence. All that fuels is Chaotic Stupid characters. Think of Emperor Palpatine, Darth Vader, Hannibal Lecter, Kevin Spacey in Seven... nothing at all like most of the villains they portrayed there.
Once I get Fiendish Codex 2, almost all use I have for the BoVD will dissappear.
You want villains in the vein of Movie style, check out the 2e Book The Complete Book of Villains. That has villains galor. I don't think the Book of Vile Darkness really captures what it is to be evil so much as vile, perhaps.
That's actually an extremely good, succinct categorization of the book. :) I've got quite a few recommendations for various books here and there from the previous editions, but somehow, I never get around to actually finding them. =[
Honestly I'm a much bigger fan of Ghostwalk than Libris Mortis. It always bothers me when the D&D folks try to write definative products on what things are--because I know going in that they really aren't going to hammer anything down and so basically I'll come away with a 40 dollar book telling me I can do things however I want cause I'm the DM. Thanks but no. I read it through and pulled a few fistfulls of hair. I'd stick with the Ecology articles myself, at least they're bold enough to make authorative declarations of canon. I really liked some of the new monsters, though the undead creatures as character classes were just ridiculous and useless. I would have liked some good classes FOR undead characters, or for those affiliated or opposed to them. That would have been nice. On the whole it ended up being a really short Monster Manual with a bunch of other stuff I'll never use.
Ghostwalk on the other hand is a favorite of mine, and really a direction I wouldn't mind seeing more of: the mini setting. I love the fact that aside from the odd article in Dragon that I have everything that will be published on the setting in one book. It's a fun setting too. I like a lot of the ideas and am really glad they took the cosmology in a really clever, fresh new direction. I just bought Incarnum and am amazed that a few of the ideas there are elaborations of ideas I first saw in Ghostwalk. I've only gotten to play it once in earnest, though someday I will do the Ghostwalk game of legend.
One problem I did have with it was that it seemed the most fundamental premise of the game was barely touched upon--namely playing ghosts. I love what's there, but they really needed a fresh bunch of character classes for ghost characters to make people want to play ghosts. Magic-user and fighter as the only options really don't do it for me much. I think I just need to play it more to get a feel for the world too. I had trouble making Manifest feel like the cosmopolitan necropolis it should have been. I love the setting though and would love to buy ten more books like it.
I dislike their apparent presentation of "true evil" as being some insecure goth teen running around screaming, "Look at me! Look at me! I'm EVIIIL! Hey, look... please, look at me? Come on...."
I've heard this from a couple of different people but looking at the book their treatment of evil didn't seem all that off the mark. I guess "insecure goth EVIIIL" doesn't hit a clear note with me...what do you mean? I guess I don't know exactly what you're addressing here.
For me I really enjoyed the more hardcore spells, the ideas of Taint, Corruption, Vileness and whatnot. I think adding in setting drugs is fairly helpful in the same way I like the in setting diseases and poisons from the DMG. As for addressing "what is evil" it felt like they did an okay job though I mostly just thumbed through it. So yeah, not a bad book all in all as far as I could see...
Honestly I'm a much bigger fan of Ghostwalk than Libris Mortis. It always bothers me when the D&D folks try to write definative products on what things are--because I know going in that they really aren't going to hammer anything down and so basically I'll come away with a 40 dollar book telling me I can do things however I want cause I'm the DM. Thanks but no. I read it through and pulled a few fistfulls of hair. I'd stick with the Ecology articles myself, at least they're bold enough to make authorative declarations of canon. I really liked some of the new monsters, though the undead creatures as character classes were just ridiculous and useless. I would have liked some good classes FOR undead characters, or for those affiliated or opposed to them. That would have been nice. On the whole it ended up being a really short Monster Manual with a bunch of other stuff I'll never use.
Ghostwalk on the other hand is a favorite of mine, and really a direction I wouldn't mind seeing more of: the mini setting. I love the fact that aside from the odd article in Dragon that I have everything that will be published on the setting in one book. It's a fun setting too. I like a lot of the ideas and am really glad they took the cosmology in a really clever, fresh new direction. I just bought Incarnum and am amazed that a few of the ideas there are elaborations of ideas I first saw in Ghostwalk. I've only gotten to play it once in earnest, though someday I will do the Ghostwalk game of legend.
One problem I did have with it was that it seemed the most fundamental premise of the game was barely touched upon--namely playing ghosts. I love what's there, but they really needed a fresh bunch of character classes for ghost characters to make people want to play ghosts. Magic-user and fighter as the only options really don't do it for me much. I think I just need to play it more to get a feel for the world too. I had trouble making Manifest feel like the cosmopolitan necropolis it should have been. I love the setting though and...
Alright, you HAVE to point me in the direction of the Dragon Article on Ghostwalk...
I'm using the variant rule, allowing regular pc classes instead of ghost classes, so far I can't seem to even give the ghostly monk a ghostly feat, but I'm working on it. He hasn't chosen a ghostly path, but has chosen a ghostly habit- cutting himself. It isn't quite what one would expect from even the Revised Conversion 3.5 Ghostwalk Ghostly proclivities such as Hunger and so on, but it works.
I think the only problem with the book and my group is that I have the book, everyone else doesn't, but I can't just GIVE them or even overly encourage that they buy a copy of the book, because of all the rather hush hush plot device information in the book. Especially the behind the veil and sample encounter type stuff. Though I'm mostly ignoring that for my own grand schemes. Though they are mostly transparant and simple to look at on the surface, they'll grow more complex later on. (such as the player characters determing what deities are involved in what fashion, and I AM using Afflux from Libris Mortis)
I'm also using Prestige Classes from Libris Mortis, but not a whole hell of a lot else aside from the occasional Slaughter Wight or undead graft.
I do like the corpsecrafter feats, though they don't honestly power up undead THAT much...1 hd undead are stil just that, 1 hd.
That said, I appreciate the templates, though I haven't used them too much yet, like Gravetouched Ghoul (Wait, elves have immunity to ghoul paralysis? whoops!) and Evolved undead.
However, I just don't "get" Half-Vampires...though it kinda works for the example Gnoll barbarian- which I'm tempted to use.
I mean, SURE I watched Vampire Hunter D and enjoyed it, but that doesn't mean I want one of them running around my D&D campaign.
The ONLY reason I'd use them in Ghostwalk would be to give my Vampire hunting Marshall something to do that is of questionable morality (he is true neutral, but his cohort is chaotic good), or to increase the danger of another gnoll group attacking or to otherwise challenge tbe players and to foreshadow battles with true vampires.
Oh well. (I still think a gravetouched ghoul monk's flurry of blows should get paralysis, but that'd be way overpowered- so it makes a good example.)
Futhermore, some of the SPELLS are okay in my opinion, I also like the feats from Libris Mortis. And since I'm running an undead heavy campaign, I don't think this is a bad book to option.
I dislike their apparent presentation of "true evil" as being some insecure goth teen running around screaming, "Look at me! Look at me! I'm EVIIIL! Hey, look... please, look at me? Come on...."I've heard this from a couple of different people but looking at the book their treatment of evil didn't seem all that off the mark. I guess "insecure goth EVIIIL" doesn't hit a clear note with me...what do you mean? I guess I don't know exactly what you're addressing here.
Just a sec', Grim.
What the HELL was that?! I was typing the post and my finger landed on one wrong key, and before I could realize what was happening, the whole thing was gone! God, I hate computers!
All right, done. What I meant was jsut that- people who think they are vampires running around trying to be evil to shock people and get attention. For an alternate phrasology, try, "Why are nipple rings evil? I ask, because EVERYTHING IN THE DAMNED BOOK HAS ONE!" Note, I do not have a nipple ring and would, as of this moment in time, rather shoot myself in the foot than have one. However, I fail to see that type of "grotesqueness" and "shock" as a true definition of evil. Again, I look to classic figures of evil in film and literature, and I don't see them running around with nearly self-mutilating jewelry all the time.
To me, the artwork is trying far too hard to impress upon us that it's really depicting evil. Yes, yes, we get it, move on....
Ah. If I were my friend Matthew I could tell you the White Wolf artist who pretty well invented the "cool nipple rings on everything" trend in RPGs lately. Basically a lot of the goth evil seeping into D&D seems to be coming from White Wolf influence. It's strange to me how self-conscious the gaming industry is. As an aside, can I tell you how frustrating it is that White Wolf wrecked its whole setting and replaced one of the best systems ever with some crappy new game mechanics all in the effort to compete with D&D? It's just sad.
Back to point I think BoVD was an opportunity for the poor repressed designers to get some of their ideas out that had been crushed for a while, though on the whole I didn't get a gross out vibe from the book--though certainly there were gross things to be found there. I dunno. I think there's a lot of kinds of evil characters, and a lot of kinds of scary stuff, and while yes an evil guy is not always some guy with hooks and chains and leather straps over his face likewise I think you get enough of the more staid, dignified evil guy in a suit, or savage culture type evil in the standard books that by definition there was some pressure for the Vile Darkness book to try to be a little vile. If for no reason other than people not going "wow...evil characters, I didn't know THOSE existed." As such I think it was a fair stab at extreme fantasy evil without getting into the kind of real evil that D&D is loathe to get into.
You have to buy your Black Dog Game Factory stuff for that...
I am a huge Ghostwalk fan, but there were bits and pieces of rules stuff I disliked. The nations and deities are all awesome, and the concept of the extra life seemed really nifty to me.
It got me so fired up I started writing up a campaign setting that combined by love of ghostwalk with my love of pirates, thus the Ghost Sails setting was born. I changed some stuff about Ghost Feats and now they work in a similar manner to how Shifter (ECS) feats work, wherein the more you have the better they are. I added another Ghost Class, the Eidolite which is essentially your skill using class with 8 Skill points, Medium BAB and d6 for hit dice and choose 10 skills as class skills like an Expert. Gave the Eidolon d10 for hit dice.
Libris Mortis is an alright book, gave plenty of spare undead monstrosities to throw at my players but for the most part doesn't really do much for me.
Heroes of Horror is a great book, filled with excellent advice on a Horror oriented campaign. I find that its difficult to make a horror vibe in a Ghostwalk game partially because the characters have little to fear from death. Instead its more fun to make a creepy Tim Burtonesque atmosphere with ghosts and terribly thin individuals in tall tophats as antagonists. While not exactly scary it is possible to enact creepy.
Anyways hope you have fun in Manifest, I know I will.
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I am a huge Ghostwalk fan, but there were bits and pieces of rules stuff I disliked. The nations and deities are all awesome, and the concept of the extra life seemed really nifty to me.
It got me so fired up I started writing up a campaign setting that combined by love of ghostwalk with my love of pirates, thus the Ghost Sails setting was born. I changed some stuff about Ghost Feats and now they work in a similar manner to how Shifter (ECS) feats work, wherein the more you have the better they are. I added another Ghost Class, the Eidolite which is essentially your skill using class with 8 Skill points, Medium BAB and d6 for hit dice and choose 10 skills as class skills like an Expert. Gave the Eidolon d10 for hit dice.
Libris Mortis is an alright book, gave plenty of spare undead monstrosities to throw at my players but for the most part doesn't really do much for me.
Heroes of Horror is a great book, filled with excellent advice on a Horror oriented campaign. I find that its difficult to make a horror vibe in a Ghostwalk game partially because the characters have little to fear from death. Instead its more fun to make a creepy Tim Burtonesque atmosphere with ghosts and terribly thin individuals in tall tophats as antagonists. While not exactly scary it is possible to enact creepy.
Anyways hope you have fun in Manifest, I know I will.
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thanks, and interesing call there with the Eidolite, if I was using ghosts more heavily, I'd probably use it. But alas, I'm advancing my ghostly monk by the Variant rule- non-ghost character class...but I think I already mentioned that.
Interesting deal with the Pirates idea, there is a sizable coast that affects four countries +the hikirian peninsula in Ghostwalk, but Thurkasia doesn't really have a port city or anything like that. However, there is the implication that there are countries that trade with those in the Ghostwalk book, so if you are using it, often as the book suggests, as a subsetting in a larger world, then more power to you, and I'm sure it'll be interesting.
I'm doing less Horror and more Classic Horror Movie/Van Helsing style monster stuff, in that the heroes, already at 4th level, are beating the crap out of the small numbers of skeletons and zombies I'm sending at them, though the Awaken Undead intelligent Gnoll Skeletons (with corpsecrafter added, but I think that was it) made for an interesting battle. I almost wish all of my undead were awakened, and many of them will be when the players start hunting down the necromancers responsible for attacks like the gnoll skeleton one. And yes, they can comeback pretty easily. Funny enough I'm about to use Clone on one or more of the NPCs, as if ressurecting him wasn't an option...I'm not exactly sure how that works with the whole ghost thing, but I presume it A. Trumps the ghost proclivity but not without willingness, obviously. B. The character may become a ghost first, presuming they make that will save, and then choose to fail their will save, thus entering the clone body. Arguably there would be levels of Clones in the evil spellcaster's base(s)of operations, ones for his midlevel minions of value as well as his high level cohort/minions. Clone, trumping the ghost option, providing they choose to be "Ressurected" in such a manner, would make for an interesting challenge vs the spellcaster's cohort, as the clone could either be in the next room or even miles away where the next base of operations lies. But, since Raise Dead and similiar spells suffer no penalty within the Manifest Ward (and I would assume within the active area of the skystones as well, hint hint) then I'm not making Clone suffer the penalties it would otherwise incur, or at least not as much. perhaps only 1 point of constitution.
Also, would the effect of the skystones, so as to prevent the encroachment of Wraiths and Shadows also apply to the Manifest Ward, or what? (I'm guessing it does, so lucky for the PCs...)
(cue evil laughter)
Oh and would it be evil to put a lich's phylactery somewhere on the island of Xaphan? (perhaps even to the point of not being known by the lich himself?)
(more evil laughter)
> Furthermore, some of the SPELLS are ok in my opinion...
I agree, punkassjoe. In the homebrew I'm slowly developing, I thought it'd be great to have a desert country ruled by necromancy-users (death masters, dread necromancers, necromancers/wizard specialist, true necromancers, evil clerics, and so on). The primary way they maintain their power- aside from armies of undead- is that everyone gets a necrotic cyst once they're born. Fairly horrible, but it DOES mean an easy to control society. Naturally, this is an EVIL nation...
...Naturally...
Though it'd be funny if relatively "good" Necromancers cropped up, perhaps to heal the human necromancers.
This reminds me that I need to go back and look at Dread Necromancer again, for future plot developments. (would be an interesting class to include in the Ghostwalk campaign from what I remember and have heard.)