Please let me give you some background on what happened to the SCAP (I originally posted this at ENworld, but I realize Id probably get more responses here)....
Our Shackled City campaign was halted unexpectedly when the last "core" party member had died last session at the hands (literally) of the Huge Fire Elementals just after the Tax Riot in The Demonskar Legacy.
While the Shackled City's main connecting plot elements are few in the beginning adventures, having newer characters rolled up means missing some of these linking elements to the main story. For example the invisible birthmarks on Terem and Zenith, some of the Last Laugh and Ebon Triad involvements, etc.
Once the last core member died, the rest of the newer characters didnt feel all that attatched to the storyline anymore. My players agreed that newer characters wont experience the changes in Cauldron since the start like the increased Half-Orc activities, the tax hikes, etc.
It seems like new characters that come in at/during/after The Demonskar Legacy will miss alot of good backstory. Being told what went on before will help fill them in but doesnt do the campaign justice.
In my game, my players decided to stop the campaign. They loved the Shackled City but they had too much invested with their older characters, specifically contacts/relationships. They felt new characters rebuilding these relationships in the same manner would have been cheesy. Incidentally, the last core player had the most contacts and has survived since the beginning.
Only one other player has had a near "core" character remaining. A Paladin that came in during Flood Season. She was planning on running for Mayor (with Tygot as a wealthy backer, and possibly Maavu after the Demonskar and Test of the Smoking Eye) to fight some of the corruption. That player wanted to keep going with the SC ap. The other players had characters die here and there and were basically getting "filled in" to what has gone before by surviving members every time.
Raising/Resurrecting characters was an option but that would probably have had to happen in Sasserine as Ive been playing up the temple of Wee Jas being particularly reclusive as of late with the cagewrights plans almost going into action. The other Temple priest are too low level and I didnt want to add any more temples. My players also dont like the idea of raising characters too many times either.
So I put it to a vote, and the SC campaign is over.
On the 8th we start the AoW ap (BTW it's also going to be based in Greyhawk 595 CY). I realize that the same thing could happen in any long campaign but at least the Party seems to move to a few different locales (Diamond Lake, The Free City, Magepoint, Redhand, etc), rather than stay in one town pretty much for the whole campaign. Also the Diamond Lake dynamic itself is very different than Cauldron's.
So my question to you all is......
Anyone experience any potentially large problems with the AoW AP?
Thanks for listening, sorry for the long windedness of the post.
Not really, no major issues for my campaign, but that's a pretty general question, people have reported all kinds of potential problems (and solutions) in this board over the last year+.
With respect to your primary problem with the past AP, I'd simply say that Age of Worms definitely provides a heap of ways for PC's to die, so if your players are not keen on being raised from the dead you need to work out how best to deal with this. Ideas that spring to mind include:
- letting them be a level or so above the recommended level in the adventures
- ensuring there's more than just 4 PC's (add cohorts / animal companions if required)
- including the possibility of family or other connections for the PC's (in Diamond Lake, the Free City, etc), so there's someone who feels motivated to pick up where the last guy left off
- roll with the Raise Dead thing, and tie it into a story (e.g. in my game, we've had two raise deads, one from the Church of St Cuthbert which came at the price of conversion, one from the Church of Heironeous because the follower was a Paladin of his, and one animal companion was reincarnated by the party druid which turned out to be a hoot)
- but my prime suggestion is to make sure the players know it has the potential to be a meat grinder unless they are good players who can build a reasonably strong character and use good team tactics.
If your Age of Worms campaign goes the same way as your previous one, i.e. the number of 'original' PC's eventually trends to zero, my guess is your campaign will suffer the same fate. Sure, new PC's can take up the quest, but if they are half way through they have only just begun to understand the true nature of the threat that has been uncovered. I suspect your players would not feel the same motivation with new PC's, as the way the Age of Worms is structured it's a huge setup in the first few adventures with them stumbling upon (seemingly) random cult activities, and only in the 2nd half do the PC's start to get on the front foot and see how it's related and that they can (and must) do something to stop it all.
In my game, my players are all on their original PC's, and we're just over half way through, with the three deaths I've mentioned. But I have strong players (especially the main magic user), and although here's only 3 PC's they are a level above recommended and have a strong follower and a strong animal companion. Their opinions vary as to what would happen should their PC die - one would happily roll up a new one, one would definitely not be able to keep going with a new character, the other one loves his current PC but would probably reluctantly build a new one if he really had to. The thing is, my current group is so well tuned, with plenty of magic as well as plenty of muscle, and just enough social skills and other pieces, that it's hard to imagine playing my Age of Worms game with a different group of PCs (occasionally we have to play with a player and his character(s) missing, which inevitably makes it hard going for the others as they have to be very careful).
Hope that helps somewhere - to summarise, expect something similar to happen this time too, and think about how you can (as a group) find a way to avoid that leading to the end of the new campaign - Age of Worms is a goodie, it would be a shame to end it only half way through!
Thanks for the response Hastur :) .
While I definately think deaths will happen again, I dont think itll be as big of a deal as it was in Cauldron being that so much time is spent there. In AoW the party spends a couple of adventures around Diamond Lake, then things move to the Free City, Magepoint, then Alhaster etc. So newer PCs wont really be spending that much time making such deep contacts in any one city as they did in Cauldron. Heck the Rogue alone (the last core character) in my group was practically in business with Artus Shemwick.
As far as having the PCs start one level higher, most would rather start at the beginning. If I had someone interested in running a PC with a +1 LA I would allow it. My group likes the challenging campaigns with non-superhero characters.
We do have a well-balanced starting party of 5 though (which includes one NPC of mine). At level six I will bring up the leadership feat and cohorts and maybe get another NPC or two into the group if needed.
The good thing is that all of my players are real life friends of mine that have been gaming 5-15 years with me. We all made the decision together, and are pretty stoked to start the AoW. We all know 3rd edition is on a higher power level than all previous editions and the APs are no lightweight campaigns, especially at the lower levels (which is further proved by the AoW obituary thread statistics).
I was just wondering if anyone else noticed any other large scale (possible) problems to look out for in the Age of Worms like the one I mentioned in my Shackled City campaign. This way I could make adjustments as needed when I get to that point.
The Shackled City HC still remains as my favorite 3rd edition product to date but I'm definately looking forward to a fresh start in the Age of Worms.
It saddens me to see your SCAP campaign end like that. If your players were enjoying it that much it is shocking they would be willing to let it go so easily. I have some ideas for restarting that would help avoid the issues you are talking about but it is likely to late anyway.
First I am thinking that you would want to start over from first level. Pick some other low level adventures that have appeared in dungeon that would be good to run and start working on altering them to be based in or around Cauldron. Things like Mad God's Key come to mind.
You will then want to read through the SCAP adventures and pull out the foreshadowing that went on in the lower adventures to look at. I think you will find there isn't all that much really. But you will want to throw in similar foreshadowing in these new adventures.
I would recommend not having the characters have the same relationships exactly. I would not have Jenya as their sponsor, for instance (would be fun for Vhalantru to fill that role actually, the priest at the temple of Pelor would be another good choice). You mentioned the close relationship with Artus Shemwick, so I would actually make him a villian in an adventure. This is not to say I would change the roles of the people they have met, keep them consistant, but people will have different relationships with the same people.
Finally as they start to catch on to what is going on I would definately have an adventure in which they meet the ghosts/spirits of their old characters and get their information before moving on (at about the same level).
I really do think this would still be a very fun campaign.
Not to completely ignore your topic though, I can't imagine not having a similar issue with AoW if your players get so tied to their original characters. I can't see avoiding this without having some gimick that keeps someone not in the adventure up to date on what is going on (maybe the whole thing is a story told by their sickly friend as he receives letters from them and should TPK happen that friend could realize the danger and assemble a new group to go out and get 'er done.)
Sean Mahoney
It wasnt so much the attatchment to the characters that was the issue. It was the contacts they had built up and the fact that entering the SC from the Demonskar Legacy on has them missing most of the changes in Cauldron (like the Half-Orcs, Tax hikes, etc). So they would kind of lose alot of the close-knit feeling towards the town itself.
In the AoW, it seems that there are several "bases" the PCs will work out of... Diamond Lake, Free City, Magepoint, Alhaster, etc. Im sure they will make contacts in these cities but they wont be all that deep like they did in Cauldron being the the entire SCAP is built around the town itself.
The SC is still a possibility at a much later date. My players never found the invisible Carcerian birthmarks and dont know much about the Cagewrights being that they only just started the Demonskar Legacy. They also dont know a thing about Vhalantru being behind alot of it, they get along well with him.
I love your idea about Artus being a villain next time around. Ill use him as a leader type of the last laugh next time around, maybe even take Jill's place.
Although this is not an answer to the question you posed, I do have some suggestions if your group wanted to restart Shackled City at some point. In creating new characters, in order for them to still be connected to the back story and be aware of (and motivated by) the changes in Cauldron (increase in taxes, more half-orc mercenaries, Vhalantru and the Last Laugh growing in influence) what I would do is help the players come up with characters that are natives of Cauldron or the surrounding area and who are connected to one or more of the main NPCs in the backstory.
For example, one player could have a character that was related to the Lord Mayor, and suspects that the Mayor has come under too much influence by Vhalantru. Another player could make a character that is an agent of the Striders of Farlaghn, and is brought back from other missions by Meerthan to Cauldron due to the increasing problems there. Another could be the adventurer son or daughter of a Cauldron merchant who wants to stop the worsening situation in the City. Another could be a member of the Chisel, sent from Redgorge after the Foreman receives a vision from their earth weird seeress about the Shackleborn and the doom they may bring to the world. Another character could be a member of the Alleybashers who escaped being killed in the Kopru Ruins, and now wants to join forces with the adventurers because he or she has learned the Last Laugh, with backing from unknown corrupt government officials, were responsible for nearly wiping out most of the Alleybashers in the first place, forcing them ally with the Ebon Triad to their loss. Etc., etc.
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I have DMed my group pretty much to the end of module 5 with module six starting at some stage next game session.
The biggest "problem" I saw was the transition from the relatively easy EaBK (Module 3) to the relatively hard HoHR (Module 4). I significantly beefed up EaBK and this made HoHR a real blast rather than a potential TPK. I would suggest this approach.
In Modules One and Two, I had "Lord" Smenk being the overlord and antagonist of the group - real godfather stuff. He escaped to Greyhawk with Filge, a secondary plot I added with one of the Merchant Houses looking to bring Smenk down adding to the political weight of the PCs. In module Two, I took the Grimlocks out of the mines and into natural caves on the outskirts of Diamond Lake. I left the Hextor temple there as the main and only obvious portal. The secret entrance to the Vecna labyrinth was placed behind the pool.
A lot depends upon what characters you have to work with. How close will Allustan be to the group, will the Heironeans be involved etc.
I have to say though, my group have had an absolute ball with the path so far.
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
Zoroaster
Some nice suggestions there. I like the Alleybasher one in particular as the Last Laugh tie-in was fairly weak to this point. I'll keep Vhalantru as we had him though. The party seemed to like him from the few times they met with him. If we do the SCAP again eventually, most chances are we will restart at the beginning, but I copied your suggestitons to a text file for later use when they need to bring in new characters from time to time. Thanks. :)
Herremann
Thanks for the suggestions also. When I read through them HoHR didnt seem that much harder than EaBK except for the deception factor. Are you saying that the party might be better off a level higher or closer to the next level when they begin HoHR?
Also, Did you beef up the encounters in EaBK or add to them?
I was already planning on adding a couple of "swampy" encounters on the way to the Lizardfolk lair.
Thanks as well. :)
As for contacts Herremann, Allustan will be fairly close to the group. One of my players (a Sorcerer) will be his apprentice at the start. The Heironeans will be accessible for Healing as Im making Melinde a good friend of another players character. Two characters are also affiliated loosely with the Bronzewood Lodge but I probably wont use that faction in detail.
Where most groups had trouble in HOHR was the following combo:
- One PC replaced by a doppleganger, leaving them one-man-short for dealing with many challenges, including the imposter
- The fight in the room with planks etc. (if no one in the group can fly or see invisible things, this room can be a real killer, especially if the PCs are simultaneously being betrayed by the imposter)
My group kept spending money on other stuff instead of investing in magic that would let them fly or otherwise have mobility when they need it, despite the fact that nearly every adventure had at least one major fight that was made easier by having good mobility in the party. This made AGoW irritating for them (they had no good way to navigate the vertical areas, and didn't work together to accomplish it in a way that kept everyone involved in the story), and continued to cause headaches through SoLS.
And by the way, SoLS is a real killer of an adventure, you'll want to be very careful when you get to that one. There are several threads about it, but the main problem area is the room with the three Swords (three negative energy blasts at once are nothing to a party that is prepared for that exact attack, TPK to almost any other party). Many of the other encounters in this one were fairly challenging. The culminating fight with the harbinger threatens to be disappointing by comparison, although some folks had some great tactics suggestions that made this one very challening indeed.