It appears Olaf that Turin beat me to the punch. However if Turin will forward me a copy of your e-mail, I'll gladly offer comment on how I attempted to lay the law down on the players, and in how I learned from what mistakes I did make.Congratulations on finishing the campaign!
It was sad to see some of the bad feeling at the end, but it seems like everyone has kissed and made up.I (possibly rashly) said I'd run Age of Worms myself, and this may be a bit sooner than I thought, since our current DM has decided to fit some extra long sessions in to clear up Shackled City quicker than I expected.
I don't intend to run it as 'Killer DM vs Powergamers'; however, I can't guarantee all the players share my definitions of 'reasonable PCs', 'spirit of the game' or 'the designer's obvious intent', or that one or two of them won't try to slip some uber-cheese past me.
Since you've spent the last two years having to vet a succession of deliberately-broken character builds, I'd love to be able to discuss things with you. Presumably, you've seen every trick in the book, and found the footnotes, side-bars, examples and errata to blow any illegal combos out of the water before they infect my game?
Any other advice and warning on practical issues of the AP would also be greatly appreciated; I'm thinking of;
stat-block errors,
maps that don't line up,
background details that contradict or don't make sense,
villains' suggested tactics or actions that defy logic, and suchlike.If you're OK with this, please e-mail me at
(robert dot feather at blueyonder dot co dot uk).One of our regular players is from Birmingham; I'm sure he'll say Hi.
Bob
The hard part is going to be adapting the Age of Worms to take into account the huge mound of splat-book materials that have issued forth since the conclusion of the AP you are about to undertake. Your first task frankly is going to be to decide how you are going to accomodate that important detail...
Charles & Yasha, if 4.0 and the DDI ever takes off, I think I'll attempt to do an on-line mini-campaign with you both, Turin, and one or two others (hopefully, the "Dying One" amongst them) to give you a personal taste of the lethal 'old school' games you gents can't personally participate in due to the locale... We'll see what the future holds...
I'm giving some thought to the "Awards" of the completed campaign, to be given to various PC's and monsters.
For starters, only fitting...
The Highest Body Count to a Single Villain Award goes to (Gong Show music in the background)...Dragotha, for 10 Player Character Kills (PCK's); Runner Up would go to Kyuss for 7 PCK's; and Honorable Mention goes to "Scorch" the Dragon with 6 PCK's.
More awards yet to come.
Amid the star and celebrity packed galla event, Killer GM stands in his shiny tuxedo, prepared to begin the presentations of the awards to the distinguished winners.
"Yes, Ladies and Gentlemen, thank you, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Tonight, we are sadly without the esteemed presence of the most Catrostrophic of Calamities, Dear Dragotha, who was unsportingly and unjustly vanquished by the Duly Departed Dragonfolk Duskblade, and his highly abused Arcane Strike."
"Alas, we are also without the presence of Kyuss. His having been flung into the far reaches of the Outer Planes of Existence by numerous "Gawds" unnamed, who were mainly sacking Tharizdun who was freed shortly after Kyuss himself escaped his prison. But we do have with us tonight, the Noteworthy third place finisher in the "Most Player Character Kills Count", may I present to you, 'Scorch the Dragon', slayer of a paultry Six player characters."
But did those PCs (busy avoiding drowning or fleeing for their lives) even scratch Scorch the second time around?
Why, no they didn't:)
"I'd like to thank the members of the academy, as well as the brave player characters who died screaming. I'd particularly like to thank Ebil Mark's most unproductive Drow Cleric/Sorcerer, who ever so kindly plotted himself and all other characters in a delightful sequential row, which made it particularly easy for me to char broil each one of those turds. Sadly I neglected to bring any garlic when I proceeded to subsequently snack on said Drow cleric. T‘won‘t happen again I can assure you.”
May I take it, Killer DM, that Scorch may have earned himself a place as a 'recurring villain' in your and Turin's games; popping up to torment PCs in conga-line formation or engaged in the act of crossing lakes on small boats in many future games?
Absolutely, Good Sir Charles. This was only the beginning for young Scorch. I'll particularly shoot for the 'Conga-line Roast' again some day:)
And while I'm on the subject of dragons, I have always viewed dragons in the mold of the "English" wily wyrms that eat maidens, destroy crops, hoard gold, ruin kingdoms, etc. like Tolkien's Smaug & Glarung; and Vermithrax (from the movie: Dragonslayer); as opposed to many of the other lame variants that have cropped up in the d&d game following 1st edition... Scorch was a deliberate nod in that direction. Most of my players didn't pick up on that sadly...
May I take it, Killer DM, that Scorch may have earned himself a place as a 'recurring villain' in your and Turin's games; popping up to torment PCs in conga-line formation or engaged in the act of crossing lakes on small boats in many future games?
While Scorch would no doubt make a fine addition to the roster of recurrant bad guys, said red dragon does not reside on the Isle of Dread. The Savage Tide to my knowledge has but TWO dragons in the entire campaign, one of whom is 'optional' (The Lady of Dragonhaunt Hollow, IIRC)...
Although perhaps he can take up residence in the now-abandoned Spire so close to Sasserine ...
Knowing full well that there are several different versions of this folk song in circulation, here's one modified a smidge to suit the Age of Worms:
Never laugh when a buddy dies,
Or you may be the next in line.
They take you out to the pauper's plot,
And there you wither, decay, and rot.
They wrap you up in a bloody sheet,
And then they bury you six feet deep.
And all goes well for a moment or two,
And then things start to happen to you.
The worms crawl in, the worms crawl out,
The worms play pinochle in your snout!
One of the worms that's not so shy,
Crawls in one ear and out one eye.
They call their friends and their friends' friends, too,
They'll make a horrid mess of you!
And then your brain turns yellow-green,
And oozes out like whipping cream.
Your eyes fall in, your teeth fall out,
Green saliva drools out your mouth.
So never laugh when a buddy dies,
For you may be the next in line
To serve Kyuss for all time.
What a beautiful ballad Sir Turin:)
Turin, Allen:
This thread on the Paizo boards recently caught my attention, and I thought that it might amuse you: Great "What the heck's is this?" monsters
Quite kewl. A reaction I am hoping to achieve in the near future on a regular basis...
Delightful Charles:)
And another thread which I thought you might appreciate being brought to your attentions, Allen & Turin.
This time, there's a DM looking for thoughts on how to handle a post apocalyptic setting where Kyuss 'won'.
Link here
Thanks again Sir Charles, I'll take a look at it. Regards.
And another thread which I thought you might appreciate being brought to your attentions, Allen & Turin.
This time, there's a DM looking for thoughts on how to handle a post apocalyptic setting where Kyuss 'won'.
Link here
Interesting brain fodder indeed ...
Speaking of “new threads”’ I’ve come across the detailed notes for the Return to the Tomb of Horrors campaign I GM’d in 2002. The slated players were Don “The Dying One” and several of his witless friends. This campaign was the second of two Return to the Tomb of Horrors campaigns that I GM’d for the 3.0 d&d system. I did not have the use of the ENWorld conversions, and I had to do the conversion work myself. It was understood that the four players would each play 2 characters (or more if some were not present on a given week). Even I have limits to my level of cruelty towards my players, and I knew that to send these four guys into the Tomb of Horrors with only 1 character each meant Absolute death. I’ll soon begin the thread: “Killer GM Runs Return to the Tomb of Horrors” for those of you who are humored by my usual dribble. What ended up happening during the brief campaign (of about a half dozen or so sessions) was that the guy(s) lost so many characters, so rapidly, that I had to start providing them with additional characters to play, because they just couldn’t roll new ones up fast enough… It’ll probably take me a week or two to get all 6 or 7 of the posts up, so bear with me. Read ‘em and enjoy:D
Friends and mean spirited GM's, the Killer GM is to begin a new campaign chronicled here in the next week or so. Look for "Killer GM runs the Styes and the Weavers."
Friends and mean spirited GM's, the Killer GM is to begin a new campaign chronicled here in the next week or so. Look for "Killer GM runs the Styes and the Weavers."
I look forward to hearing of the disembowellings, dismemberments, maimings, mutilations and permanent psychological disorders of the ... erm, characters.
Yeah ... yeah ... that's the ticket ...
I go to read the mayhem and death that awaits our heroes...is it?
Ahh...the Styes...
Turin, having a Freedom of Movement ability will not be affected by Mother worm's most potent special ability, so I've got to either quickly subdue the rest and drive him off, or pummel him to death with her many attacks (which I can do Turin, so don't try to be a friggin hero, alright:)
I ran the Mother Worm encounter last night, & the party used FoM to avoid paralysis. However, re-reading the description of FoM today, I see the following:
This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web.
Note that the Mother Worm's paralysis is an extraordinary ability, & thus could not be circumvented with FoM (unless there's errata I'm missing). In retrospect, I'm glad this escaped my attention, as 8 attacks with DC 41 paralysis, combined with SR 29 & DR 15/Epic (how can a CR 20 creature have epic DR, btw?), I would've ended up with a TPK.
Turin, having a Freedom of Movement ability will not be affected by Mother worm's most potent special ability, so I've got to either quickly subdue the rest and drive him off, or pummel him to death with her many attacks (which I can do Turin, so don't try to be a friggin hero, alright:)I ran the Mother Worm encounter last night, & the party used FoM to avoid paralysis. However, re-reading the description of FoM today, I see the following:
This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web.
Note that the Mother Worm's paralysis is an extraordinary ability, & thus could not be circumvented with FoM (unless there's errata I'm missing). In retrospect, I'm glad this escaped my attention, as 8 attacks with DC 41 paralysis, combined with SR 29 & DR 15/Epic (how can a CR 20 creature have epic DR, btw?), I would've ended up with a TPK.
I think Freedom of Movement needs clarification - as it stands, once you have a 7th or 8th level party, grappling ceases to be a routine concern, while ever-increasing numbers of high CR critters rely on grappling to actually DO anything as foes.
The critter's SR for its CR is low - it's DR probably should have been 5/- (unless an Epic weapon was inserted in Age of Worms at an earlier point) or perhaps 10/-. The SR normally is gauged at CR+10, typically capping at 25-30 until you hit really "high end" critters.
I think Freedom of Movement needs clarification - as it stands, once you have a 7th or 8th level party, grappling ceases to be a routine concern, while ever-increasing numbers of high CR critters rely on grappling to actually DO anything as foes.
Good point Sir Fighter - but how often is a typical party taxed to the point of depleting their Freedom of Movement capabilities ? As a general rule of thumb from what I've seen, once FoM is up and in operation, healing capabilities permitting, parties tend to press as far along as they possibly can to maximize their benefit from this spell.
My case in point is our very own STAP group - for all practical purposes, grappling / improved grab has long since completely ceased to be a factor in combat for a variety of reasons. (Like, since the group hit the shores of the Isle of Dread some 10 or 11 levels ago...)
Turin, having a Freedom of Movement ability will not be affected by Mother worm's most potent special ability, so I've got to either quickly subdue the rest and drive him off, or pummel him to death with her many attacks (which I can do Turin, so don't try to be a friggin hero, alright:)I ran the Mother Worm encounter last night, & the party used FoM to avoid paralysis. However, re-reading the description of FoM today, I see the following:
This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web.
Note that the Mother Worm's paralysis is an extraordinary ability, & thus could not be circumvented with FoM (unless there's errata I'm missing). In retrospect, I'm glad this escaped my attention, as 8 attacks with DC 41 paralysis, combined with SR 29 & DR 15/Epic (how can a CR 20 creature have epic DR, btw?), I would've ended up with a TPK.
My interpretation at the time was that Freedom of Movement would safeguard the PC's against the Paralysis attack. I'll agree with Turin that the spell/item could use some clarification. If FoM should not have protected the group, then you have a TPK, almost every time. Almost no PC can honestly make a DC 42 Fortitude Save, and thus, I think that the author was going under the assumption that it did as well. Otherwise, he may have gone with a slightly lower DC on the Fort Save. Naturally, I have no objection whatsoever if you (Mr. Rob) choose to hose your group utterly.
Hose on with my fondest regards...
I think Freedom of Movement needs clarification - as it stands, once you have a 7th or 8th level party, grappling ceases to be a routine concern, while ever-increasing numbers of high CR critters rely on grappling to actually DO anything as foes.The critter's SR for its CR is low - it's DR probably should have been 5/- (unless an Epic weapon was inserted in Age of Worms at an earlier point) or perhaps 10/-. The SR normally is gauged at CR+10, typically capping at 25-30 until you hit really "high end" critters.
Again I agree with Turin, many monsters at higher CR's make use of grapple attacks. The idea that a 4th level spell totally negates any of that is a problem. More clarification is needed.
Again I agree with Turin, many monsters at higher CR's make use of grapple attacks. The idea that a 4th level spell totally negates any of that is a problem. More clarification is needed.
I think Freedom of Movement needs clarification - as it stands, once you have a 7th or 8th level party, grappling ceases to be a routine concern, while ever-increasing numbers of high CR critters rely on grappling to actually DO anything as foes.The critter's SR for its CR is low - it's DR probably should have been 5/- (unless an Epic weapon was inserted in Age of Worms at an earlier point) or perhaps 10/-. The SR normally is gauged at CR+10, typically capping at 25-30 until you hit really "high end" critters.
Again I agree with Turin, many monsters at higher CR's make use of grapple attacks. The idea that a 4th level spell totally negates any of that is a problem. More clarification is needed.
I think Freedom of Movement needs clarification - as it stands, once you have a 7th or 8th level party, grappling ceases to be a routine concern, while ever-increasing numbers of high CR critters rely on grappling to actually DO anything as foes.The critter's SR for its CR is low - it's DR probably should have been 5/- (unless an Epic weapon was inserted in Age of Worms at an earlier point) or perhaps 10/-. The SR normally is gauged at CR+10, typically capping at 25-30 until you hit really "high end" critters.
Da Fighter has a most excellent suggestion.
Perhaps this should be playtested ?
Again I agree with Turin, many monsters at higher CR's make use of grapple attacks. The idea that a 4th level spell totally negates any of that is a problem. More clarification is needed.
I think Freedom of Movement needs clarification - as it stands, once you have a 7th or 8th level party, grappling ceases to be a routine concern, while ever-increasing numbers of high CR critters rely on grappling to actually DO anything as foes.The critter's SR for its CR is low - it's DR probably should have been 5/- (unless an Epic weapon was inserted in Age of Worms at an earlier point) or perhaps 10/-. The SR normally is gauged at CR+10, typically capping at 25-30 until you hit really "high end" critters.
Da Fighter has a most excellent suggestion.
Perhaps this should be playtested ?
I have played that attempting to grapple someone with FoM halves the attackers grapple bonus. So a monster with a grapple bonus of +28 when attempting to grapple someone with FoM only gets a grapple bonus of +14
I have played that attempting to grapple someone with FoM halves the attackers grapple bonus. So a monster with a grapple bonus of +28 when attempting to grapple someone with FoM only gets a grapple bonus of +14Again I agree with Turin, many monsters at higher CR's make use of grapple attacks. The idea that a 4th level spell totally negates any of that is a problem. More clarification is needed.
I think Freedom of Movement needs clarification - as it stands, once you have a 7th or 8th level party, grappling ceases to be a routine concern, while ever-increasing numbers of high CR critters rely on grappling to actually DO anything as foes.The critter's SR for its CR is low - it's DR probably should have been 5/- (unless an Epic weapon was inserted in Age of Worms at an earlier point) or perhaps 10/-. The SR normally is gauged at CR+10, typically capping at 25-30 until you hit really "high end" critters.
Da Fighter has a most excellent suggestion.
Perhaps this should be playtested ?
How well has that worked out for you Sir Werecorpse ?
Hoh-hum... I'm reading these old posts and fondly reminiscing about the glory days-gone by of wasting PC's wholesale. Those were the days...
With ten player character fatalities a week or two ago, Turin seems poised to make a run at the title (86) held by my cruel, but ever-so-fair self. Will Turin beat the record? Place your bets. Who's giving me odds...
With ten player character fatalities a week or two ago, Turin seems poised to make a run at the title (86) held by my cruel, but ever-so-fair self. Will Turin beat the record? Place your bets. Who's giving me odds...I personally wouldn't count deliberate self immolations by PCs who trigger necklaces of fireballs in non-combat situations. As far as I can see, Turin has two legitimate kills so far. The mass demise of Lennies and Lennettes at the end of Edge of Anarchy should be struck from his tally, unless he can demonstrate that he pressured them into taking the action in some manner.
They happily did that to themselves, overeager in their zealousness to thwart Her Radiant Majesty's 'unjust' execution of Trinia Sabor. I of course am perfectly able and willing to accept self-detonation as a character death. After all, Allen has several of those on HIS kill tally...
Oh, and Vreeg himself accounts for three 'legitimate' character deaths by your reckoning Sir Charles. :P Just because the GM didn't roll the dice does not mean that the character deaths didn't occur.
With ten player character fatalities a week or two ago, Turin seems poised to make a run at the title (86) held by my cruel, but ever-so-fair self. Will Turin beat the record? Place your bets. Who's giving me odds...
I rather doubt in a mere dozen sessions the character death tally from CotCT will remotely approach either your AoW or my STAP in body bag piles.
Ah, but the Pett and Logue contributions are proportionally higher for Curse of the Crimson Throne, and PF #11 has some gorgeous ways for PCs who do stupid things (or simply encounter monsters that the players have never seen before) to expire.With ten player character fatalities a week or two ago, Turin seems poised to make a run at the title (86) held by my cruel, but ever-so-fair self. Will Turin beat the record? Place your bets. Who's giving me odds...I rather doubt in a mere dozen sessions the character death tally from CotCT will remotely approach either your AoW or my STAP in body bag piles.
Hopefully Sir Charles I will have time to run all the delicious carnage. However, the primary constraint is simply that to really run these 6 chapter AP's requires more than twice the amount of viable play time I have available in order to meet our group/my self - imposed deadline of mid-to-late February. Each Chapter should rightly require at least 3 sessions, preferably 4, to run where I do not believe I can take more than 2 per Chapter and still get this done on time.
:ohnoes: Cram some extra sessions in over Christmas and the New Year, or something, Turin. You have to introduce them to Scarwall, at the very least, even if the introduction is brief and coincides with the squelch of PCs hitting the floor dead for the very last time.
We fans of killer DM techniques need to see Scarwall done in an appropriate manner.
Well, ideally:
Next Sunday 26th October concludes 7D2tG.
November 8th & 15th: EfOK
Hrm ... scheduling problems starting around Thanksgiving are an immediate concern... I will need to hammer this out with the rest of the group. Croiky!
Turin, I can't recall any PC death in Age of Worms that was deliberately self-inflicted. Any recollections? I think it was a legit 86:D
Charles, I think the subject of "legitimate" PC deaths is one worthy of discussion. What would you classify as a legit PC kill?
Turin, I can't recall any PC death in Age of Worms that was deliberately self-inflicted. Any recollections? I think it was a legit 86:D
I cannot recall off the top of my head per se - I do recall one or two that involved exploding characters however. ^_^
Charles, I think the subject of "legitimate" PC deaths is one worthy of discussion. What would you classify as a legit PC kill?That's a tricky one, but I suspect that the nature of the game as a playtest and the setting (currently an urban one where characters just turn up, fully equipped, as replacements) affects the style of play and results in 'lets try things out just for the sake of it' moments of horseplay/hijinks where the players apparently don't care if their characters live or die. I would count such demises as 'halfs' at the best (especially if a character has been named 'lenny or lennette') and have any Big Bads on the scene furiously scribbling observations regarding spell-immunities to apply on future occasions if required.
However, part of my comments, I realise now, have been coming from my DM side of the screen perspective of the path and what is/isn't necessary. From the player side, throwing around thousands of gold pieces worth of equipment like that for a big spectacle might have seemed necessary, I concede, at least if the players thought that they had bungled the scenario spectacularly and needed something big to try to pull it out of the fire.
Lenny or Lennette is my designation Sir Charles. If you note, the player characters are named in the journal. :P
The scene was fun regarding the 'Queen's Debacle', and the kamikazi'ing of Vreeg was done/permitted primarily to see how effective it is and to actually conclude the chapter on time.