We played on Feb 13, and there were (0) PC fatalities, but don't fear, there will be likley at least 2 as SOON as we start this coming Saturday. I've got my ducks pretty well lined up, and when we start on Saturday the 27th, I (the GM) will be first up on the initiative order, and the heads are going to start rolling, when one of my star villains starts swinging the falchion around. I'll post the results ASAP after Saturday.
The group did meet on February 27, and there were Two (2) PC fatalities. When we left off, the 5 PCs present were spread out over the course of a long corridor in the king's castle. All PCs present were 11th level. At the beginning of the session of the 27th, there were 3 additional PCs bring the total to 8 PCs. The villain was a 13th level Ranger (total CR of 14), and he had a 11th level cleric and 5 1st level wizards in tow.
In the previous session, the five 1st level wizards fired their 1-charge wands of Enervate, and bled the 5 characters present for 3 levels each.
When we resumed on the 27th, the 3 new PCs attempted to rejoin the 5 PCs already in the corridor. The 11th level evil cleric used his dimensional hop to take himself and the 13th level villain next to the PC wizard & cleric. The 13th level villain then sunk his full attack + hasted action and killed the PC wizard & cleric with two shots each with his falchion. The 11th level evil cleric then used his standard action to put up a Wall of Stone, cutting half the party off from themselves and the other half. The remaining PC + the 3 new PCs then did what they could before I had my next actions for the bad guys. My mistake ended up being not blocking off the 3 new PCs with a Wall of Force, as Turin the Mad joined the Resident Artist's archer in plastering the main villain with a total of 8 or 9 arrows and doing about 200 HP damage to him. The main villain then opted for a tactical retreat to fight another day.
This next game session on March 13, the group tries to defend their keep from Baron Pondsludge and his hordes. Place your bets now!!!
In today's session of the current homebrew campaign, there were EIGHT (8) PC Fatalities. The group first laid the smackdown on the forces of Baron Pondsludge, who then teleported himself and his pet gorgon (advanced 12 HD gorgon) into where the PCs were perched up on top of the castle where they could shoot at Pondsludge's floundering mooks. Pondsludge's gorgon Petrified 3 out of 4 spellcasting characters, and it looked bad for the PCs, but knowing what was in store for the group later, I opted to take it easy on them, lest the day turn into a total debacle. Pondsludge had his hand on a boulder that was set in a catapult ready to be fired. An NPC conveniently poured Soverign Glue onto the Baron's hand, and then kicked the release lever, and sent Pondsludge flying with the boulder that his hand was super-glued to. The PCs then mopped up the rest of the invaders.
The group then went to the haunted isle to grab the unguarded treasure. The treasure wasn't so unguarded however, and though the PCs looted it, the guardian caught up with them when they were hauling the loot back across the lake. Our old friend Scorch the Dragon sent a fiery blast at the PCs (who were Water Walking across the lake), and killed the PC Sorcerer. Had I been able to dispatch the PC cleric, it would have been an unmitigated disaster, as the Water Walk would have then folded, and all PCs present would have ended up in the drink. The survivors of the initial blast however all banded up together in the burning boat, and teleported out, leaving the loot to sink to the bottom, to be recovered later.
Lastly, the group attempted to investigate a reported dastardly activity by their chief villain, and at the same time help an elderly man who was about to be bumped off by his next of kin for his extensive fortune. I really can't do justice to describing the encounter without going to extensive detail, but long story short, after a lot of Role Playing, Flavor Text, and diabolically lulling the players into a false sense of security on my part, the PCs arranged to escort the constable to meet with the old man in his house. They did so. The entire group was actually stupid enough to be convinced to cram themselves into his small (20'x20') study. To the PCs dismay, (and not a single player present even raised an eyebrow or asked a question/made a check) to detect disguise or anything else (though most were spelled up at the time), the main villain threw Dust of Sneezing and Choking into the air, screwing everybody in the room. Though every PC affected made their saves, all (save 1) were still Stunned for 14 rounds.
The villain, his helper, and Haru's Sorcerer all had Necklaces of Adaptation, so they were not harmed by the dust. The villain's helper then cast Maze on Haru's sorcerer, leaving the other 7 Player Characters unable to take actions or move, and they were subsequently sliced and diced, one by one, for the next seven rounds. The villains then set the entire place on fire and walked off to celebrate.
The group was glued back together by the remaining PC and a helpful NPC, and then went off to obtain the sacred flame. They began a battle with a number of Druids and 2 Efreeti, and we concluded the session while combat was still ongoing.
Both of my player characters were 86'd today...
The first due to a bad run in with a Deck of Many Things.
The second due to having both a 7 INT and a lack of a Necklace of Adaptation for dealing with the aforementioned Deadly Dust.
Both of my player characters were 86'd today...
The first due to a bad run in with a Deck of Many Things.
The second due to having both a 7 INT and a lack of a Necklace of Adaptation for dealing with the aforementioned Deadly Dust.
At the risk of sounding optomistic, the first of two was Don'Jon'd, and may be recoverable...
At the risk of sounding optomistic, the first of two was Don'Jon'd, and may be recoverable...Both of my player characters were 86'd today...
The first due to a bad run in with a Deck of Many Things.
The second due to having both a 7 INT and a lack of a Necklace of Adaptation for dealing with the aforementioned Deadly Dust.
Yep - got to play with a Deck o' Many Things.
Order of draws: Knight, Fool, Talons, Donjon...
And I do have a certain "ring of wierdness" ...
A deck of Far too many things...
First, Mr Killer GM's (both Allen and Turin) gotta to give you props and respects for your gamming style and inspiring me to get back into DM or GM'ing depending on the game system. I really enjoyed this thread from beginning to present (only thing keeping me enterained for 'bout six-eight hours of a boring job with not much else to do the past couple of weeks).
I normally game on saturdays with a GM I've known for a few years who guys really remind me of. kills us off at the right times without really crushing our gaming spirit in the stead wanting us to comeback for more, and it helps when the players are particularly blood thirsty and care less for the particulars and just want to enjoy the GAME. like my brothers and I.
after reading this it kind of renews my longing to gm again start rackin up a body count which I know I can get away with on a few players i game with regularly.
but either way please keep the carnage commin and now your fan base is still growin out there.
First, Mr Killer GM's (both Allen and Turin) gotta to give you props and respects for your gamming style and inspiring me to get back into DM or GM'ing depending on the game system. I really enjoyed this thread from beginning to present (only thing keeping me enterained for 'bout six-eight hours of a boring job with not much else to do the past couple of weeks).
I normally game on saturdays with a GM I've known for a few years who guys really remind me of. kills us off at the right times without really crushing our gaming spirit in the stead wanting us to comeback for more, and it helps when the players are particularly blood thirsty and care less for the particulars and just want to enjoy the GAME. like my brothers and I.
after reading this it kind of renews my longing to gm again start rackin up a body count which I know I can get away with on a few players i game with regularly.
but either way please keep the carnage commin and now your fan base is still growin out there.
Glad you've enjoyed the thread Silent Man. It's always nice to know that others have gotten a few laughs from what Turin and I have put together over the years. There certainly is an inherrant humor to the game, and that's what I attempted to play to when I put the thread together since back in 2006. And with any luck, we'll keep right on rolling with the head count for the months and years to come...
This current homebrew is not a part of the 2006-7 AoW campaign, but since this thread is where people have read my stuff in the past, I figured I'd keep posting right on here. This current campaign (began in February 2009) was originally set up to be a 'RP-heavy' campaign--hence the low PC body count in the early part of the campaign. Naturally, the players eventually went the direction of 'Power-gaming,' and that was all it took for me to take the Kid Gloves off and start wiping out the PCs again, on a routine basis. I've taken ALL KINDS OF WHINING from my players about being unfair, but I've consistently laid it to them using encounters that are only 3 CR's/EL's above the average party level, OR LESS. Once or twice, I went with 4 CR's above the APL, but other than that, I've stuck to the 3-CR or less rule, that the Paizo people came up with in a moment of insanity. My players frequently complain about DM heavy-handedness, unless I go easy on them, but then want to exploit every loophole in the Pathfinder book, use high-powered PCs, and they argue calls incessantly when the Pathfinder rules are vague. They seem to want it both ways.
If I've seen anything since 2006 (and even in the 1983-1986 time frame back during 1st edition), being a 'killer GM' is a headache, as you've got to deal with whiny players, especially the rules lawyers, and old fogies who've been playing the game since 2nd edition or early 3rd. If you fancy a killer-GM style campaign, you'll make it easy on yourself if you pick your players well, and present yourself in a totally impartial role. Course sometimes your players will revolt and then you've got to do damage control, but it all comes with the turf...
Regards, ~AS
Say, by any chance have you been a player with Cap'n Jose in the past?
First, Mr Killer GM's (both Allen and Turin) gotta to give you props and respects for your gamming style and inspiring me to get back into DM or GM'ing depending on the game system. I really enjoyed this thread from beginning to present (only thing keeping me enterained for 'bout six-eight hours of a boring job with not much else to do the past couple of weeks).
I normally game on saturdays with a GM I've known for a few years who guys really remind me of. kills us off at the right times without really crushing our gaming spirit in the stead wanting us to comeback for more, and it helps when the players are particularly blood thirsty and care less for the particulars and just want to enjoy the GAME. like my brothers and I.
after reading this it kind of renews my longing to gm again start rackin up a body count which I know I can get away with on a few players i game with regularly.
but either way please keep the carnage commin and now your fan base is still growin out there.
We're glad to hear that another Killer GM is dusting off the books, dice and props to belly up to a table and butcher as many characters as you can all in the name of fun.
A growing fan base is always a welcome sight. Look forward to seeing your commentary (hopefully) on the CoT journal. ^_^
Yes actually I still do game with the Cap'n, he has just gotten his A Whole World Awaits homebrew game back up and running again with a few new additions since a couple of our old players have gone their seperate ways due to the callings of life, two of which have recently gotten married and moved away.
... and to select Sleep spells rather than magic missiles at 1st level...
Speaking as a wizard afficinado while sleep is a very good first level spell for range the more bang for your first lvl buck is color spray. Then sleep then hail of stone. I dont usually worry about the silly magic missle until at least 5 to 7th lvl. MM may be a player stabl;e and a module designers top priority when designing NPC wizard but players should know better.
I dont usually worry about the silly magic missle until at least 5 to 7th lvl. MM may be a player stabl;e and a module designers top priority when designing NPC wizard but players should know better.
The players certainly found out the hard way. And you would have thought that after their first disasterous trip up the entry tunnel, (courtesy of the Gnome Wizard & Jack Mangler), that they would have changed their tactics during their 2nd trip up the entry tunnel. They didn't. And as a result, I didn't either:)
Yes actually I still do game with the Cap'n, he has just gotten his A Whole World Awaits homebrew game back up and running again with a few new additions since a couple of our old players have gone their seperate ways due to the callings of life, two of which have recently gotten married and moved away.
When does the Cap'n hold his games? Are you guys still at the Dale City Parlor? I'll have to drop by some time to pay you and Jose a visit...
When does the Cap'n hold his games? Are you guys still at the Dale City Parlor? I'll have to drop by some time to pay you and Jose a visit...Yes actually I still do game with the Cap'n, he has just gotten his A Whole World Awaits homebrew game back up and running again with a few new additions since a couple of our old players have gone their seperate ways due to the callings of life, two of which have recently gotten married and moved away.
yeah he still hosts on saturdays around 2-6pm at the Dale City Parlor
Looking back at all of this, I realize where things went wrong on my end. I played a character that was almost completely sub-par. She died multiple times, and frequently. I gave up on on the character and started playing one that was effective, but with the shock of the multiple deaths I got into an arms race.
In the end I really don't like playing for power, I just want my characters that have a lot of flavor to stay alive and be useful.
Looking back at all of this, I realize where things went wrong on my end. I played a character that was almost completely sub-par. She died multiple times, and frequently. I gave up on on the character and started playing one that was effective, but with the shock of the multiple deaths I got into an arms race.
In the end I really don't like playing for power, I just want my characters that have a lot of flavor to stay alive and be useful.
Ineptus, I thought your character(s) in the 06-07 AoW campaign were both decent, and well played. Furthermore, your participation in the 'arms race' was understandable, given the campaign in question, as well as the actions of the other players in the group at that time. Players in the 06-07 campaign group such as Scott, who did Not power-game, ended up getting creamed far too often because their "normal/non-munchkin" characters got out-gunned by their "over-powered" fellow player characters and the monsters every week.
I think your desire to Avoid power-gaming is a sound approach. It is unfortunate that many, if not most, games end up going in the power-gaming direction. Some things are certainly lost in a campaign when the game goes in that direction. Such is certainly not the preference of many players.
Killer_DM and Turin I got a question for yas. I don't like the idea of handing over the sphere of annihilation. Do you think it's to much to have them actually go through the Tomb of Horrors to get it.
All teleportation spells would be blocked, so none of that scrying and stealing would be going on, and the dungeon would adjust itself depending on the level they were when they decided to go for it so no smart ideas such as waiting until 15th level or so would work.
but what do you do in your opinion,
if the DM is generally encouraging power gaming to some degree, maybe not to the level some of your players did in AoW(Feral minotaur and AM armor) but to a point where the players forget about the objective of the game and focus on making a character/class that has completely left the uniqueness of the class behind simply for sheer amounts of munchkin power or something entirely unintentionally something the opposite of what they had in mind.
but what do you do in your opinion,
if the DM is generally encouraging power gaming to some degree, maybe not to the level some of your players did in AoW(Feral minotaur and AM armor) but to a point where the players forget about the objective of the game and focus on making a character/class that has completely left the uniqueness of the class behind simply for sheer amounts of munchkin power or something entirely unintentionally something the opposite of what they had in mind.
That is one thing I have been meaning to bring up. The feral template was not all the specific as it should have been. It defiantly was meant for racial hit dice, not character. I did a decent character progression after finding this out later on.
Killer_DM and Turin I got a question for yas. I don't like the idea of handing over the sphere of annihilation. Do you think it's to much to have them actually go through the Tomb of Horrors to get it.
All teleportation spells would be blocked, so none of that scrying and stealing would be going on, and the dungeon would adjust itself depending on the level they were when they decided to go for it so no smart ideas such as waiting until 15th level or so would work.
Part of the lore (and any divinations regarding the aforementioned Tomb) should at least hint at the situation you are positing.
A cryptic, poetically-structured (done in advance by you, for each of the divinations available to your players' characters) is fitting given the destination in question.
After all, being unable to scry in will raise plenty of red flags among the veteran players. I would consider changing the name, or using the alternative nomenclature presented throughout the RTTOH.
If they do go for "scry and snatch", you don't need the place to block arriving ... just leaving. The original location was heavily warded against trespassing by astral, ethereal and shadowy means - complete with a small host of fiends tasked to do just that by Acererak. Nothing says "welcome" like (a) not being able to *bamf* out, and (b) a 'clapping hands' trap pressure plated at the arrival location. ^_^
but what do you do in your opinion,
if the DM is generally encouraging power gaming to some degree, maybe not to the level some of your players did in AoW(Feral minotaur and AM armor) but to a point where the players forget about the objective of the game and focus on making a character/class that has completely left the uniqueness of the class behind simply for sheer amounts of munchkin power or something entirely unintentionally something the opposite of what they had in mind.
One thing I used at the end of the STAP were pygmie critters that were nigh-unstoppable against traditional methods of high-powered adventuring. However, against mundane weapons and very low-level spells (3rd or less), they had no SR and really crappy save bonuses. Against mundane armor/defenses they wouldn't hit nearly as often.
Killer_DM and Turin I got a question for yas. I don't like the idea of handing over the sphere of annihilation. Do you think it's to much to have them actually go through the Tomb of Horrors to get it.
All teleportation spells would be blocked, so none of that scrying and stealing would be going on, and the dungeon would adjust itself depending on the level they were when they decided to go for it so no smart ideas such as waiting until 15th level or so would work.
Part of the lore (and any divinations regarding the aforementioned Tomb) should at least hint at the situation you are positing.
A cryptic, poetically-structured (done in advance by you, for each of the divinations available to your players' characters) is fitting given the destination in question.
After all, being unable to scry in will raise plenty of red flags among the veteran players. I would consider changing the name, or using the alternative nomenclature presented throughout the RTTOH.
If they do go for "scry and snatch", you don't need the place to block arriving ... just leaving. The original location was heavily warded against trespassing by astral, ethereal and shadowy means - complete with a small host of fiends tasked to do just that by Acererak. Nothing says "welcome" like (a) not being able to *bamf* out, and (b) a 'clapping hands' trap pressure plated at the arrival location. ^_^
I guess I can allow them to teleport in, but no teleporting out.
DM:Yes, you have sphere of annihilation.
Player: I cast greater teleport
DM: Nothing happens. (evil grin)
Killer_DM and Turin I got a question for yas. I don't like the idea of handing over the sphere of annihilation. Do you think it's to much to have them actually go through the Tomb of Horrors to get it.
All teleportation spells would be blocked, so none of that scrying and stealing would be going on, and the dungeon would adjust itself depending on the level they were when they decided to go for it so no smart ideas such as waiting until 15th level or so would work.
First, why do they even know about the potential uses of a Sphere of Annhiliation? How did they find that info out? If they somehow researched it, that's one thing, but I wouldn't give out that info, otherwise your job becomes that much tougher. I certainly wouldn't give them the location (nor even the existence) of the Tomb of Horrors, unless they burn yet more valuable time to research it. If all this information is coming from Manzorian (who is actually Tenser from the Greyhawk campaign world incidentally..., though the authors changed the name to make the game less 'Greyhawk-ish'), then I guess they would acquire the info, but I STRONGLY encourage you to have one of the Winged Kyuss Dragons (exact name escapes me at the moment) do a Fly-by and drop a Gate spell or similar magic in order to destroy the Sphere. At the PCs current level (19 or 20 I imagine) then they will have NO trouble with the Tomb of Horrors, so if they know about it, there really is nothing stopping them from getting the Sphere, so you have to make plans to torpedo the Sphere directly. Kyuss might be able to take out the Sphere via Time Stop and putting certain precautionary measures in place during the Time Stop. Or give Kyuss a Rod of Cancellation, and he can take care of the sphere with that.
but what do you do in your opinion,
if the DM is generally encouraging power gaming to some degree, maybe not to the level some of your players did in AoW(Feral minotaur and AM armor) but to a point where the players forget about the objective of the game and focus on making a character/class that has completely left the uniqueness of the class behind simply for sheer amounts of munchkin power or something entirely unintentionally something the opposite of what they had in mind.
Silent Man, I think you have to gage your group in question, and then discuss the issue with them, and get the group to 'agree in principle' to all either power-game, or to avoid it. If even a few players do it routinely, they will eventually either drag the other players into it (and you as well-like it or not), or the group will have problems when some characters outshine, out-perform, and ultimately survive longer than the others.
I neither encourage power-gaming, nor do I discourage it. What I have done in the past and present is to tell the players exactly what I will do in response to it, and how the practice of power-gaming will change the overall flavor of the campaign. If the group is heavily in favor of power-gaming, so be it. Makes my job easier and more humerous. But if the MAJORITY of players are NOT IN FAVOR of power-gaming, that is when the problem arises, because in a "Mixed group" of both power-gaming and non-powergaming players, the GM almost inevitably starts to power-game himself to keep pace with the powergaming players, and the non-power-gaming players' characters often get oblitterated because their characters usually aren't up to par with their power-gaming counterparts. Hence, powergaming should be an "All or None proposition." Everyone should do it, or no one should do it.
And by far the MOST IMPORTANT rule in Preventing Power Gaming, is to NOT allow Dead player character's magical gear & treasure to become general Party treasure. That insane amount of additional gold will send your campaign into overdrive almost immediately and potentially irretrievably. That was probably the largest factor in the Age of Worms out-of-control characters. And with 86 dead characters during the campaign, there was a lot of extra gold, especially at higher levels. If you can make a house rule, that a dead PC's valuables become the property of his/her next character (or allow the player to 'cash out' and take the total g.p.value of the past character and then equip the new character), you take a huge step in curtailing powergaming, so that even committed power-gamers can't go too far with it.
And the MOST IMPORTANT rule in Preventing Power Gaming, is to NOT allow Dead player character's magical gear & loot to become general Party treasure. That insane amount of additional gold will send your campaign into high gear almost immediately.
This is absolutely correct.
Hi Turin. I'm looking forward to Charming the hell out of your +7 Will save character tomorrow, first thing out of the gate:)
I know you guys aren't 4E fans, but after running STAP all the way through in 3E, I decided to give 4E a shot for my next campaign. I had one player who I'd consider a "power gamer" in my STAP game. He didn't exactly infect the other party members, but he did show them a few things about how to build effective characters, and with the amount of non core material being used (spell compendium, complete books etc...), they ended up with a pretty potent party that was heavy on high level casters towards the end. It made for a very interesting campaign, but it did require me to bolster many of the encounters in the AP to provide sufficient challenge. Including using a few dirty tricks hear and there- like a disjunction trap just before heading into the final temple of Demogorgon to confront the demon prince. Running he high level portions of STAP was fun and exciting, but it also felt very tiring. The final fight against demogorgon felt like he highlight of my dming "career" to date, and I will always look back on it with great fondness (there were multiple deaths in that fight alone, some characters multiple times in the fight). However, when I was done I felt spent. I couldn't imagine continuing on into epic play under the 3E rules, and the tactical part of the campaign felt like a continuous arms race with the party (how do I counter Argent's 50 AC? Well i'll use rays that target his touch AC, oh wait he picked up ray deflection. How do I counter that? Dispel magic. Oh wait he picked up etc... etc..).
One of the biggest differences I've noticed about 4E is that I haven't felt like this is happening near as much. It's still the same group of players, and they are still using the system to build effective characters and characters that complement each other well (which is more important in 4E, if you want a tough party), but I find it much easier to challenge them without having to resort to too many dirty tricks. I spend a lot less time fretting over encounters and trying to figure out whether they will be effective against the party or if the party will just plow right through them (which was a big issue in STAP).
Having been running a 4E game for close to 2 years now, I've come to the conclusion that the magic system of 3E spoiled many players. It gave away too much power too quickly. 4E has reigned that power back in, but of course that has left a bad taste in the mouths of many who were used to 3E, as their candy was taken away. As a dm, I've noticed that the missing candy has resulted in PCs that are no longer all hopped up on sugar, and it makes for a much nicer gaming environment (We actually have to walk through the dungeon and carry torches- we can't fly around with darkvision spells??? gasp). Sure it's far from a perfect system and there are things I don't like about it, but all in all I've found it well worth the switch, and I think the main reason is that the synergies provided by powers of different classes encourages more team work among party members, and that a power gamer can have fun tinker with and building his character, but the net result is a character that while potent, doesn't particularly unbalance the game or force other players to play "catch up" with their own PCs. That last part alone has made it worth the switch for me. It should also be mentioned that in 4E. I've noticed it is much harder to build a gimpy character, so everyone's PCs are more or less in line with eachother in terms of what they can contribute. In 3E it was easy to make choices that could result in a really poorly built character (relative to other characters) if you didn't know the system well, especially if you were a newbie player gaming with experienced power gamers.
I'm not really trying to convert 3E lovers to 4E, but I am putting it out there that I've found the new system to be a solution to power gaming issues I had in 3E.
I'm not really trying to convert 3E lovers to 4E, but I am putting it out there that I've found the new system to be a solution to power gaming issues I had in 3E.
PH, you're catching me in a weak moment after taking a earfull of crap from several players today (one in particular, as his was the character dispatched today), but you are correct that GM'ing 3.5/Pathfinder is tiring, and for the reasons that you listed. I'm already neck deep in the ...how do I counter..., etc. I am secretly (will not so secretly now) counting down the days until I conclude this campiagn, and take a leave of absence for the birth of my 2nd child. I'm tired of the game, and looking forward to some time away from it. If 4Ed can keep things sane the way you describe, and avoid the "arms race" that is inherrant in the 3rd ed & Pathfinder games, then I'd say that's a good thing. Not saying I'd trade for it, but to avoid the huge headaches that upper level play (and I'm not even talking about epic level) creates would be delightful. The move to 4ed is clearly a move away from much that was & is dnd, and I'd miss that, but I wouldn't miss the headaches and the incessant whining from certain players.
PH, you're catching me in a weak moment after taking a earfull of crap from several players today (one in particular, as his was the character dispatched today), but you are correct that GM'ing 3.5/Pathfinder is tiring, and for the reasons that you listed. I'm already neck deep in the ...how do I counter..., etc. I am secretly (will not so secretly now) counting down the days until I conclude this campiagn, and take a leave of absence for the birth of my 2nd child. I'm tired of the game, and looking forward to some time away from it. If 4Ed can keep things sane the way you describe, and avoid the "arms race" that is inherrant in the 3rd ed & Pathfinder games, then I'd say that's a good thing. Not saying I'd trade for it, but to avoid the huge headaches that upper level play (and I'm not even talking about epic level) creates would be delightful. The move to 4ed is clearly a move away from much that was & is dnd, and I'd miss that, but I wouldn't miss the headaches and the incessant whining from certain players.
I'm not really trying to convert 3E lovers to 4E, but I am putting it out there that I've found the new system to be a solution to power gaming issues I had in 3E.
Oh, our early 4e experimental campaign did not cause the BWMCing to cease and desist by any means. I've met quite a few people that GM 4e - and they've universally had to rather heavily house rule changes to that system to make it palatable to their tastes.
Sir Dungeon: As a counterpoint, Pathfinder did a great deal to reign in the power-stupidity. I find it much easier to run than "full supplements on line" 3e.
That all having been said, your campaign journal is very enjoyable. :)
In today's session of the current homebrew campaign, there was One (1) PC fatality. The gang (7 12th level PCs) first finished the encounter in the lava caverns of the sacred flame. The PCs were buffetted by a total of 14 Ice Storm spells from 7 NPC 7th level druids (CR 6 each), and eventually they got to the end cavern to tangle with the 7 dark druids, an elder dark Druid 13 called "Dark Disciple" (who I've used once in a blue moon since 2001), and 2 Efreeti 4th level clerics. The bad guys were significantly underpowered, but were helped by the fact that the elder Dark Druid could use wishes to restore all the villains Hit Points, and did so on one occasion. In the end, the bad guys did run out of steam, and after all the 7th level PCs were wasted by Turin the Mad and Haru's PCs, the 2 efreeti and the 13th level druid called it quits and binged out to the elemental plane.
Then the PCs soon went after the 1st of 4 lost towers. There was only 1 encounter in the whole place, and the players had any amount of time they wanted to spell up. The group was now 13th level (7 characters were present). They enter the main tower chamber. The place is laden with Deeper Darkness spells (placed there by a Nightwing, whom I elected not to use because by the end of round 1, it was apparent that the PCs were already in trouble and were making a number of bad tactical decisions.) The 4 opponents the group had to defeat were a Ghost CR 10, a CR 10 Sword of Kyuss (stats in the Spire of Long Shadows Paizo adventure), an Iron Golem CR 13, and a Skeleton Champion/Cleric 14 (CR 15) for a total of an EL 16 encounter. In the first round, the guys started work on the Deeper Darkness spells (there were 4 of them altogether in the place). They detected the presence of the iron golem in the middle of the chamber, and started to move to engage him. The Sword of Kyuss dropped his 14 d6 Negative Energy attack (Invocation of the Worm), and started weakening most PCs present (who were in range). The CR 10 ghost used Malovelence on Turin the Mad's Half-Orc Barbarian, and had Turin 'Axe' a fellow PC fighter a question or two, to the tune of around 70 HP damage or so. Another PC would subsequently drive the ghost out of Turin's PC with a Protection from evil spell, but in the 2nd round of combat, the ghost successfully used Malevolence again, this time on the PC Rogue/Assassin, who will soon be stabbing some other PC in the group. In round 1, the Skeleton Champion Cleric 14, 'Karn the Terrible' (who saw action in the Age of Worms campaign also) attempted to use Destruction on the PC Cleric, but I missed the cleric's SR check. On the 2nd round, I tried again, and this time succeeded, and the Cleric took 140 HP damage, and died on the spot:D We left it at the end of the round, where Turin the Mad oblitterated the Iron Golem. Though I am worse off without the iron golem, the encouner appears to be going fairly well for me. We halted the action at that point, to resume in 2 weeks from today. Hopefully Turin can fill in any other relevant details I missed...
In the long run, it's much more the dm and the group of players you have that makes the difference (as opposed to the system you run). I've got a great group of players, and I work hard as a dm, which results in plenty of fun for all involved.
PH, you're catching me in a weak moment after taking a earfull of crap from several players today (one in particular, as his was the character dispatched today), but you are correct that GM'ing 3.5/Pathfinder is tiring, and for the reasons that you listed. I'm already neck deep in the ...how do I counter..., etc. I am secretly (will not so secretly now) counting down the days until I conclude this campiagn, and take a leave of absence for the birth of my 2nd child. I'm tired of the game, and looking forward to some time away from it. If 4Ed can keep things sane the way you describe, and avoid the "arms race" that is inherrant in the 3rd ed & Pathfinder games, then I'd say that's a good thing. Not saying I'd trade for it, but to avoid the huge headaches that upper level play (and I'm not even talking about epic level) creates would be delightful. The move to 4ed is clearly a move away from much that was & is dnd, and I'd miss that, but I wouldn't miss the headaches and the incessant whining from certain players.
I'm not really trying to convert 3E lovers to 4E, but I am putting it out there that I've found the new system to be a solution to power gaming issues I had in 3E.
Oh, our early 4e experimental campaign did not cause the BWMCing to cease and desist by any means. I've met quite a few people that GM 4e - and they've universally had to rather heavily house rule changes to that system to make it palatable to their tastes.
Sir Dungeon: As a counterpoint, Pathfinder did a great deal to reign in the power-stupidity. I find it much easier to run than "full supplements on line" 3e.
That all having been said, your campaign journal is very enjoyable. :)
... but I wouldn't miss the headaches and the incessant whining from certain players.
I feel sorry for you. There will always be whiners. I think the players today expect to be allowed to live, but I have been axed enough times not to have to much sympathy for them.
In the long run, it's much more the dm and the group of players you have that makes the difference (as opposed to the system you run). I've got a great group of players, and I work hard as a dm, which results in plenty of fun for all involved.
I agree with that sentiment, as Turin the Mad also indicated as well. The players, the DM, their personality quirks, and group dynamics are the main factors; rather than the system.
I feel sorry for you. There will always be whiners. I think the players today expect to be allowed to live, but I have been axed enough times not to have to much sympathy for them.
Some mistakes were made by the player characters, and the group had UNLIMITED preperation time (both before departing to the encounter site, and upon arrival, before the group entered the encounter area: to prepare, pre-cast spells, etc. The encounter is far from over. There is one PC down, and one monster down. The encounter is not remotely a lost cause for the players, and I ultimately suspect that the players will win in the end. The problem is that some players have no ability or preference to deal with adversity in the game. They want it basically handed to them, though they will deny this when asked. And this particular player is either oblivious to/or unwilling to accept the premise that an intelligent undead cleric would target the sole PC cleric in the group, who is capable of turing undead, channeling positive energy, and casting Heal spells to the tune of 130 HP of damage each to the undead present. To fail to grasp why your PC cleric is the center of attention of such an opponent is simply ignorant. Furthermore, the player in question has TWO characters in use, unlike the rest of the players, who only have one, and the player in question uses the cleric PC as a glorified band aid who's main purpose is to protect his other primary Fighter character. As a result, he has his cleric fail to take intelligent precautions to keep his own skin alive, because he is too busy buffing the fighter character; and he gets 86'd more often than he should. That's his decision, and I'm not about to shield him from the consequences, nor have the opponents in a fair encounter 'tip-toe through the tulips' so as to take it easy on him, when he plays the way he does.
As for the whining, it is certainly more prevalent to a select number of individuals I've encountered over the years. How I continue to end up with one or two at a time is a mystery... In the end, if my efforts to reel the player in don't work, then eventually it comes down to an unpleasant parting of ways. We're talking adults in their 30's, who are primarily 'self-oriented' and are used to getting their ways, and not very diplomatic about it. Most of these types of folks dont' readily "change their ways." My efforts to 'bring them up to speed' on ways to alter their view of the game, and change their preparation and tactics have done little to change things in the past... Hell, maybe it's me... or maybe these folks have had GM's in the past who have done the "Guide GM" approach as Monte Cook calls it, and have made gaming a 'feel good experience' where character development and success, and storyline all trump any consideration of rules or risk to life and limb. I suspect it is more of the latter.
Kill off everyone you can - the survivors will re-group and go back in. ^_^
Kill off everyone you can - the survivors will re-group and go back in. ^_^
I will certainly try to do just that, though I'm somewhat doubtful that I can pull it off. If so, your help with marshalling the other players will be needed, no doubt. If Daniel shows next time with Wizard & Druid in tow, I might go ahead and re-insert the Nightwing as previously planned, as the group would at that point have NINE player characters...
My players will also seek a Sphere as well in my game Wraithstrike. I plan on making Kyuss more powerful than presented in the AoW campaign (they weakened him too much in the module) so they will need it.
I love this thread so I will miss it during your hiatus. I have gotten softer in my old age I used to kill at least 1 PC per game now I kill maybe one every few months. Congrats on the new child BTW.
Dragotha seems a bigger threat, just by looking at the stats. I will hand select my own spells and feats for both of them though. I always seem to find spells and feats that won't do any good at all.
My players will also seek a Sphere as well in my game Wraithstrike. I plan on making Kyuss more powerful than presented in the AoW campaign (they weakened him too much in the module) so they will need it.
I love this thread so I will miss it during your hiatus. I have gotten softer in my old age I used to kill at least 1 PC per game now I kill maybe one every few months. Congrats on the new child BTW.
This of course must be redressed at once, Sir Harry. I recommend staging a "you wake up dead" scene for them ... ^_^
My players will also seek a Sphere as well in my game Wraithstrike. I plan on making Kyuss more powerful than presented in the AoW campaign (they weakened him too much in the module) so they will need it.
I love this thread so I will miss it during your hiatus. I have gotten softer in my old age I used to kill at least 1 PC per game now I kill maybe one every few months. Congrats on the new child BTW.
Thanks Dennis. I'll miss the game as well, though it's easier given the cause for the hiatus. Hope to be back on the warpath again before long.
In today's session of the current homebrew there were 2 and possibly 3 player character fatalities. We picked up where we left off last time, and I decided to play hard ball with the players today. During round 3 in the previous session, the Skeleton Champion Cleric 14, Karn the terrible had used his standard action to use Destruction and 86'd the PC cleric. I didn't bother to take his move equivalent action, so I did so first thing out of the gate today, and used my Dimensional Hop ability to place myself next to the Paladin who had only 20 HP remaining, and used a Medium Rod of Quickening to allow me to cast Harm, and dropped the Paladin to Negative 50 HP even on a successful save. On the following round, two new characters had entered the combat who were not present last week. One of those two new characters, a 13th level Wizard cast Command Undead, and my ghost who was in possession of the Drow Rogue, blew his Will Save and became friendly with the Wizard. Quite a delima. Not only was I deprived of the Drow PC Rogue/Assassin's help in fighting the other players (in round 3, the drow had stuck Turin the Mad's Half-Orc Ftr/Bbn for over 130 HP of damage, but now my ghost too was pals with the late arriving PC wizard. I did what any Killer-GM with any sense about them would do. I cast Destruction on the Drow Rogue/Assassin, and blew his ass to kingdom come, and in the process freed the ghost to resume his hostilities against all other PCs, save the PC Wizard. The potential 3rd casualty came on the same action as did the Drow PC Rogue, as on my action, I used my delightful Medium Rod of Quickening and dropped a Harm spell on the PC wizard, who failed, took 140 HP damage, and then proceeded to tell me that his wizard had Magic Jar'red a 5 HP peasant, and that his actual body was safely tucked in a nearby Bag of Holding, in the possession of the PC druid. I unhappily assumed that this let him off the hook, but Turin the Mad pointed out that inside the bag of holding is not considered to be on the same plane of existence, and as such the PC wizard couldn't get back to it. Thus possibly a 3rd PCK.
The potential 3rd casualty came on the same action as did the Drow PC Rogue, as on my action, I used my delightful Medium Rod of Quickening and dropped a Harm spell on the PC wizard, who failed, took 140 HP damage, and then proceeded to tell me that his wizard had Magic Jar'red a 5 HP peasant, and that his actual body was safely tucked in a nearby Bag of Holding, in the possession of the PC druid. I unhappily assumed that this let him off the hook, but Turin the Mad pointed out that inside the bag of holding is not considered to be on the same plane of existence, and as such the PC wizard couldn't get back to it.
An interesting dilemma on the magic jar.
The operative phrases of the spell regarding this circumstance are scattered. It also has a finite duration (hours x caster level), although the inexpensive focus is a minor detail - one that Eschew Materials does not ignore. A character sheet audit could be in order. ^_^ Also, the specifics of operating via "remote body" is deliniated in the spell - possessing a peon commoner is guaranteed to result in a massive reduction of saving throw bonuses. Does the commoner possess the mage's gear (save spell book)? If so, all that stuff hit the ground along with the commoner's carcass.
From the end of the spell description: "If the host body is slain, you return to the magic jar, if within range, and the life force of the host departs ... . If the host body is slain beyond the range of the spell , both you and the host die. Any life force with nowhere to go is slain."
From the beginning of the spell description: "To cast the spell, the magic jar must be within spell range and you must know where it is, though you do not need line of sight or effect to it." While the spell description does not explicitly state that transferral back to one's body is different, it is a reasonable assumption that the primary requirement is being within the operative range.
The interior of such objects as a bag of holding are nondimensional spaces . The interesting part of the bag is that said wizard only has 10 minutes of breathable air within the bag before he asphyxiates. Does he have a necklace of adaptation? Probably ... but another check point for the audit.
A dilemma to be sure - but even if the wizard passes the audit (focus and necklace at a minimum) - the crux is whether or not a magic jar can cross planar barriers or into a nondimensional space. My gut instinct says "no"... Definitely something to ponder.
I thought the harm spell left the character with 1d4 hp if it would otherwise taken him below 0. I didn't think it could take anyone below 0.
In today's session of the current homebrew there were 2 and possibly 3 player character fatalities. We picked up where we left off last time, and I decided to play hard ball with the players today. During round 3 in the previous session, the Skeleton Champion Cleric 14, Karn the terrible had used his standard action to use Destruction and 86'd the PC cleric. I didn't bother to take his move equivalent action, so I did so first thing out of the gate today, and used my Dimensional Hop ability to place myself next to the Paladin who had only 20 HP remaining, and used a Medium Rod of Quickening to allow me to cast Harm, and dropped the Paladin to Negative 50 HP even on a successful save. On the following round, two new characters had entered the combat who were not present last week. One of those two new characters, a 13th level Wizard cast Command Undead, and my ghost who was in possession of the Drow Rogue, blew his Will Save and became friendly with the Wizard. Quite a delima. Not only was I deprived of the Drow PC Rogue/Assassin's help in fighting the other players (in round 3, the drow had stuck Turin the Mad's Half-Orc Ftr/Bbn for over 130 HP of damage, but now my ghost too was pals with the late arriving PC wizard. I did what any Killer-GM with any sense about them would do. I cast Destruction on the Drow Rogue/Assassin, and blew his ass to kingdom come, and in the process freed the ghost to resume his hostilities against all other PCs, save the PC Wizard. The potential 3rd casualty came on the same action as did the Drow PC Rogue, as on my action, I used my delightful Medium Rod of Quickening and dropped a Harm spell on the PC wizard, who failed, took 140 HP damage, and then proceeded to tell me that his wizard had Magic Jar'red a 5 HP peasant, and that his actual body was safely tucked in a nearby Bag of Holding, in the possession of the PC druid. I unhappily assumed that this let him off the hook, but Turin the Mad pointed out that inside the bag of holding is not considered to be on the same...
I thought the harm spell left the character with 1d4 hp if it would otherwise taken him below 0. I didn't think it could take anyone below 0.
It does 10 points per caster level, with a max of 150, but you never go below one hp with it. At in 3.5 anyway. I am assuming Pathfinder works the same way.
It does 10 points per caster level, with a max of 150, but you never go below one hp with it. At in 3.5 anyway. I am assuming Pathfinder works the same way.I thought the harm spell left the character with 1d4 hp if it would otherwise taken him below 0. I didn't think it could take anyone below 0.
That would be correct - harm cannot reduce one's hit points below 1 in Pathfinder.
A definite mental lapse on my part. And with only 20 HP remaining, I could have put him under with a 14 d6 Flame Strike easily.
Sadly the KGM has yet to post his recollections of this past game session, although the Real Life Monster's many heads have kept him busy these past weeks.
The campaign as a result is down to one remaining session in mid to late May.
This last session there were two character deaths - many more were thwarted by the twin brothers Strauf, clerics of Pharasma - and a well-timed anti-life shell in the first encounter of that session put a stop to the legendary Sir Sean.
Sir Sean is modeled visually upon Sean Connery's role in the Green Knight movie of who-knows-when-it-was-done. A feytouched human with a fondness for decapitation and the storing of heads in baskets, he added another 2 characters to his tally for a total of 22 character deaths in this villain's storied history over the course of the KGM running 3e D&D.
It was a close call to being able to dispatch this august villain, but alas, another time perhaps.
Sir Sean is modeled visually upon Sean Connery's role in the Green Knight movie of who-knows-when-it-was-done. A feytouched human with a fondness for decapitation and the storing of heads in baskets, he added another 2 characters to his tally for a total of 22 character deaths in this villain's storied history over the course of the KGM running 3e D&D.
It was a close call to being able to dispatch this august villain, but alas, another time perhaps.
I'll post my recap of the session shortly. The movie Turin referenced is "Sword of the Valiant", the story of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. The movie was made in 1984, and starred Miles O'Keefe and Sean Connery as the Green Knight.
The character of 'Sir Sean' was based loosely on the movie, as the NPC (and PC as I once used him) did not have the "head-replacing" ability as did the movie version, but the movie/story (by JRR Tolkien) versions seemed to have something akin to 'Fey Magic', and the choice of the Fey-Touched templace seemed appropriate. The fact that said template gave him the immunity to Mind Affecting effects, was however a motivation as well:)Lastly, as Turin mentioned, Sir Sean does lead my brigade of "Star/Picture Villains" (illustrated by our co-group member the 'Resident Artist', whose artwork can be found on his website: cloudeagle.com. Sir Sean has 22 Player Character Fatalities to his credit (defined as dealing the Killing blow/spell that ends the miserable life of a character during combat). I've used Sir Sean in a total of 9 encounters since 2001.