Contributor
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So I'm going to start up a game in late October or early November, and while I have all the plot and setting and all that worked out, I'm still stymied by the character creation rules I want to use.
Question
Have you ever run or played a d20 Modern game that incorporated D&D character classes and monsters as well? If so, how did it work out for you?
Reasonings
• Having never done a mix like this, it seems to me that the standard classes in d20 Modern (the strong hero, the fast hero, and so on) are very weak compared to the standard classes in D&D (fighter, wizard, and so on), but that the advanced classes (soldier, investigator, and so on) are almost on par with the standard classes in D&D.
• My current thought is to start characters at 1st level with advanced classes from d20 Modern but as the campaign progresses allow them to multiclass (freely! none of this 20% XP penalty crap!) into D&D standard classes. In theory, that should work, but I just want to make sure those characters who stick with d20 Modern standard classes aren't going to get completely overwhelmed by not making the switch.
Other Considerations
The game is going to be high-powered, as it will borrow a lot of the feel of anime (which is generally over-the-top), and in theory quite flexible. I've already decided on 32-point point buy, and I'm contemplating one or more of the following options:
• One feat per Hit Die for everyone (PCs, NPCs, and monsters). This will require some retrofitting of printed characters and monsters, but ce la vie. On the other hand, lots of options!
• Gestalt characters for PCs (from Unearthed Arcana). This will require slightly tougher opponents, but that's not a challenge ("Oh, you killed my single guard, eh? Well, here are two more. Yeah, take that!"). (No, I don't really DM like that.) (Usually.) This would allow a nice chance to mix d20 Modern and D&D classes.
• Maximum hit points at each level. D&D is more fun when your character doesn't die. D&D is a lot more fun when you don't roll a 1 on hit point rolls.
Other Systems
And yes, I have considered using a point-based system for character creation, especially Mutants & Masterminds, but ultimately I had to reject that notion as such systems do not translate well into class-based leveling systems like D&D. I'm not 100% against the idea of using M&M creation rules, but right now it's an uphill battle.
Thanks for your input! :)
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I have to say Im kinda interested in what you have planned for your game. Ive ran a d20 modern game before and I have to say the one thing that I really didnt like was the classes. Especially if you want to have spell casters at 1st level. The other thing our group encountered as a problem was that fights with mostly guns and very little melee can get boring pretty fast (as oppossed to d&d with lots of melee fighters with plenty of melee options and few ranged fighters with not so many options). I think that the advanced classes would probably mix well with standard d&d classes, but Im not so sure about the base classes. The feats trees can be replicated pretty easily with standard d&d classes and are probably always the better choice over the d20 modern base classes.The only reason I see in using the base classes and advanced classes from d20 modern would be to get some abilities that d&d dosent already have. I would defintly say that you should choose one spellcasting system either d&d or d20 modern, otherwise things might conflict a little bit (thats my own opinion,without an actual comparison of the two). The big thing about d&d and d20 modern is that they share so much in common yet I find enough little diffrences that it can make things a hectic at the table if you and your players just assume that both work the same(yet another problem area out group had). Id love to here more about the details of you game though it sounds like it would be cool.
I don't think that the d20 modern classes are as weak as they may first appear. They work well in modern action gaming. I have seen some cool class combinations with the standard d20 modern classes. Seen a gun-fu martial artist with a strong1/ fast2 character. The player was going to gain both gunslinger and martial artist advance class, but we never played that far
Reasonings
• Having never done a mix like this, it seems to me that the standard classes in d20 Modern (the strong hero, the fast hero, and so on) are very weak compared to the standard classes in D&D (fighter, wizard, and so on), but that the advanced classes (soldier, investigator, and so on) are almost on par with the standard classes in D&D.• My current thought is to start characters at 1st level with advanced classes from d20 Modern but as the campaign progresses allow them to multiclass (freely! none of this 20% XP penalty crap!) into D&D standard classes. In theory, that should work, but I just want to make sure those characters who stick with d20 Modern standard classes aren't going to get completely overwhelmed by not making the switch.
Other Considerations• One feat per Hit Die for everyone (PCs, NPCs, and monsters). This will require some retrofitting of printed characters and monsters, but ce la vie. On the other hand, lots of options!
I like this keep us informed on how it goes.
• Gestalt characters for PCs (from Unearthed Arcana). This will require slightly tougher opponents, but that's not a challenge ("Oh, you killed my single guard, eh? Well, here are two more. Yeah, take that!"). (No, I don't really DM like that.) (Usually.) This would allow a nice chance to mix d20 Modern and D&D classes.
I am unfamiliar with Gestalt characters, what makes them so powerful?
• Maximum hit points at each level. D&D is more fun when your character doesn't die.
I agree and disagree.
Yes it hurts to lose your character. Character death can just suck. But if it happens and happens rarely, and oh so dramatically a PC death can be a very dramatic and fun gaming event. PC death has inspired many a memorable game moment and campaigns as a whole.
A campaign where every action is do or die is just frustrating. When your characters die constantly and never accomplish a thing, the game sucks.
My first attempt at d20 Modern had actually been in an attempt to make a shadowrun like game, using races and classes from D&D with d20 modern rules. However to make my life easier I had just used some of the NPCs from d20 Modern (d20 modern classes) and I found that there was alot more damage dealt to the D&D classes then the d20 modern classes. So if your going to use D&D classes in D20 modern, you have to use a Defense Bonus and Reputation options (probably can get both from Unearthed Arcana) but I didn't get these options in before the game folded.
EDIT: I actually did three attempts in the above type, the first and third didn't work out at all as I said above, but the second which dealt with a party of 8, did work out great.
My second attempt was to use d20 modern classes in a 'D&D' setting, first off the magic using classes are bad, I just ended up allowing spellcasting classes, half the players changed to D&D classes and the other half said with d20 Modern classes. Once again, the defense added to d20 modern classes are a nice boon, and make up for them not getting armor, but if they start dropping feats into Armor Proficiencies, they quickly become better then normal classes. Combining the two (armor plus defense bonus) is not recommended.
Which brings me to my third and final attempt, I allow d20 modern classes to be used, but I do not allow them to be crossed with D&D Classes, most people seem to stick to the D&D classes, but in my recent Red Hand of Doom adventure we had a Tough Hero who became a Dreadnought, and he was putting out as much damage at the spirited lance charging cavalier. And when he brought his armor feats plus two weapon fighting feats, he was not just a damage soaking tank, but a heavy damage dealing tank.
All in all, I would say d20 modern classes in a D&D setting along side D&D classes are much better choice, but if you use the Defense Bonus and Reputation options then it should work out the other way as well (Oh, and I didn't mention that I use action points in D&D as well so the d20 modern classes also have a boon at getting more action points in advanced classes and prestige classes then d&d classes and prestige classes do).
Now that I have answered that question, I would like to commit on a few things in the reasoning department as I have seen some good house rules.
As said above, the d20 modern classes do not lag behind the D&D classes, and become are nice once you start taking advanced classes as well. So I would just start them at 1st level and let them choose what they want using basic d20 modern classes and D&D classes.
Other things to consider, to make this nicely high powered and put more power in the hands of the player I would do the following (a house rule I got from a friend). A feat every other level and an ability point every other level (Basically 10 feats and 10 ability points thoughout the levels to 20), its suggested though that you make the cost of ability score increasing items higher, but then again if you are looking for high powered over the top, this isn't needed.
I am just now using Gestalt rules for the first time in my AoW campaign so I can't really commit on them, but it would probably work, and if you want high powered then let them combine d20 modern and D&D classes in the Gestalting.
Maximum hit points are cool and all, but there is nothing like rolling a high hit point die, however another house rule from a friend, you could just let them roll and if they get under the average for their hit dice (i believe there is an option for taking average hit dice instead of rolling it) then you can increase it to the average mark and let them keep over the average rolls, or you can just do the max hit points, but I like the other rule better which still cuts out the pesty 1 rolls (or 2 and 3s unless your a mage!)
EDIT: Also another rule I used awhile back was max HP for the first three levels, this gives any class a nice cushion, incase of them dreaded 1s! However the reason I suggest this is... well just max hp seems wrong to me, though maybe the excitement or dread of the HP die gets me right here! *places fist to heart alittle teary eyed*. And in closing... I can't believe I wrote this big of a post for this.
Dude! I just woke up from this awesome (but somewhat horrifying) dream where I (or whoever I was in the dream, can't remember) ended up stuck in this town (a modern day podunk) where the residents had recently been overwhelmed by an undead plague.
I managed to find my wife and escape alive with a black bastard sword sword carried by this undead werewolf (not a vampiric werewolf, but some other sort of undead - possibly revenant) who had only one eye (like Vecna). We had not made it far out of the town when we came upon a woman on a japanese-style motorcycle with a thin glowing white sword (either bastard sword or longsword) hanging out at a crossroads.
After carefully approaching her and talking from a short distance, we learned that she was a redeemed vampire trying to fight the plague - the source of her own "birth," mind you - at its source, somewhere in the desert a night's ride from Podunk. Problem is, she hadn't gotten far due to her vampiric curse of always becoming lost at crossroads. She'd been going back and forth over them for hours (the owner of the gas station at that corner sure was happy!). We assisted her with getting to the correct side of the crossroads, and off we went!
And then I woke up with a burning need to stat up those swords and their wielders at Lilith's database... Off to do that!
TK
The only d20 modern game I've run was a Star Trek : FASA conversion. I would certainly consider using the D&D core classes in a d20 modern game in the future.
An option I would consider would be gestalting a d20 modern core class with a D&D core class. I had actually rolled up a few characters for a future campaign and it was an interesting twist that wasn't quite as powerful as a double D&D core class gestalt character, but made the d20 modern classes a heck of a lot more interesting.
Haven't had a chance to play or run a game with those features incorporated yet, though.
Mike,
I know what you said about not wanting to use another system, such as Mutants and Masterminds, but I really think Green Ronin’s True 20 system may be just the thing you are looking for.
In brief, True 20 uses three base classes (The Adept, The Expert, and The Warrior) that have feat choices and skill advancements at each level. These choices at each level help to flesh out and define the character’s role, allowing a great degree of customization. Multiclassing is straightforward and encouraged.
You mentioned wanting a high powered game and with True 20 you can dial in the power level you want by setting the point buy for stats right up front. Furthermore, the system has a mechanic called Conviction that replicates to a certain degree what Action Points do. Heck you could add on Action points in addition to Conviction with minimum fuss. :-)
The system is easily adaptable for almost any type gaming whether it is fantasy, modern, future, or some amalgam of all three. Depending on what type of game you have in mind, I would also recommend True Sorcery and True Cybernetics in addition to the main system. All three can be found in PDF for a minimum investment if you do not want to commit to buying the hardbacks (though True Cybernetics is PDF only).
I highly recommend giving the system a look to see if it could fit your needs. If you would like more information, I would be happy to try and answer any questions you may have.
Good gaming,
Mark
Mike,
I've been thinking about this since you first posted this on your blog. Since the objective is to create a game filled with anime archetypes, please consider these suggestions:
1. Oriental Adventures has d20 class builds appropriate to the setting, even if you set your game in a modernized world. Most of the OA classes have modern analogs. Since OA includes most D&D classes, as well, you'll be working with class builds that you are familiar with. Port over modern equipment as you see fit. Tweak existing classes whenever you think you need to. Make sure to adjust samurai loyalties to corporations.
Or, you could ...
2. Use Unearthed Arcana. But instead of gestalt -- which WILL require A LOT of tweaking on your part to provide high-powered encounters -- go instead with the Generic Classes, pg. 77. The best part about these: They are already balanced and highly customizable. Rather than go through all the multiclass mess (such as your concern about 20 percent penalty on multiclassing), using the generic classes only requires you to plug in the Ex and Su special abilities as you see fit, really eliminating most multi-class headaches. You probably have to add some monk special abilities to the list of available options to meet your expectations of an anime feel.
I would only make one change to the generic class set up. Instead of forcing the PC to determine which ability(s) they want for good saves and poor saves, go with Mearls' "Iron Heroes" route and make the Save progressions identical to the character level. It saves on paperwork and it also makes the characters more durable without resorting to other unwieldy adjustments.
Another advantage: the spellcasting class is more in line with standard D&D than the comparative modern advanced class. If you want magic in your game, then you should get magic off the bat. Who wants to wait four levels in the modern game to get that stuff?
Or, you could ...
3. Go the d20 modern route, with some adjustments.
First off, I always start my Modern game at fourth level. That gives each player an advanced class to play with, if they desire. The character classes are pretty generic before that, and in truth, there really is less customizing options available on most builds than a reading of the rules would lead you to belief.
Second, buy "Unorthodox Cheerleaders" supplement from The LeGames. If you like female heroes that kick ***, this is for you. I highly recommend it. But them, I'm pretty close to the author ;-)
Third, make liberal use of the mecha section from d20 Future or from the Polyhedron minigame writeup in Dungeon. Even if you don't include mechas in your game, the advanced classes are spot on.
A word of warning. Allowing PCs to add a feat per level sounds great, but it is going to really complicate your job as DM -- unless you are running a game for accomplished players. My experience is that these buffed up feat arrays really slow down combat. If that's OK with you, go with it.
My inclination would be to go with another Mearls innovation from "Iron Heroes," which is the feat mastery system, which plugs in with two feats at first level, and then adds a new one at every odd numbered level. The feat mastery system also provides another kick: Since your anime game will primarily be populated by humans, I assume, these feat masteries allows you to incorporate what in D&D are racial abilities, into the character.
If none of these suggestions pan out, there's always BESM or the newest entry on the block, Panty Explosion from atarashigames. (Of course, your taste in anime games may not quite run in that direction ...)
Keep rolling 20s.
Troy.
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Contributor
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An option I would consider would be gestalting a d20 modern core class with a D&D core class. I had actually rolled up a few characters for a future campaign and it was an interesting twist that wasn't quite as powerful as a double D&D core class gestalt character, but made the d20 modern classes a heck of a lot more interesting.
Yeah, that's kinda where I was beginning to gravitate toward.
Second, buy "Unorthodox Cheerleaders" supplement from The LeGames. If you like female heroes that kick ***, this is for you. I highly recommend it. But then, I'm pretty close to the author ;-)
Ha! Awesome! And drivethrurpg.com has it! Hmm... now when do I get paid again...? :)
Thanks f2k, Troy, Marcos, and everyone else! I'm still reading this thread and still absorbing the collective wisdom of our readers. :)
Mike, any update on your campaign?