I have a situation to explain, one that boggles my mind.
I DM for a group of friends, right? We've been having at this campaign for months now, and the PCs just crossed the plane into high-level territory, where their power dramatically increases. The group consists of a Level 13 Paladin, a 15 Wizard, a 13 Sorcerer and an 11 Ninja (all humans). They are all equipped with stuff that is about in line with what is expected of characters of their level.
As a storytelling-oriented DM, I will from time to time pit them against a powerful being as a great way to cap off a long adventure or story arc. At my DM's planning table, I designed a straightforward encounter, one that the PCs were not expected to win. I pitted them against a 20th-level Rogue and a 19th-level Fighter, and I had expected them to make successful Sense Motive checks to determine that these opponents were stronger than they were (the Paladin has max cc ranks in Sense Motive and almost always comes through for the PCs on this front). I expected them to run, as these two characters were stronger than usual. I fully equipped these characters with gear equivalent to what a 20th-level NPC should have according to the DMG table. I even hand-picked their magic items so that they would stand a better chance against the two casters and their patented "Twin Disintegrate of Death" move, in case they didn't flee.
Not only did my PCs pummel the daylights out of these higher-level NPCs, they did so without taking more than maybe 20 damage each. I was stunned, and awarded everyone but the Ninja full XP (because the Ninja's win against a 20 Rogue is considered a "stroke of luck" according to the XP table; I did give him full XP for slaying the 19 Fighter). Needless to say, they all gained a level and are well on their way to their next one.
Tell me: is this sort of thing supposed to happen? I can only chalk it up to numbers and a poor Fort save by the rogue against a Disintegrate. It seems almost crazy that the NPCs fell so quickly without even putting up much of a fight, but the worst part is that now my whole planned and plotted story arc is thrown into disarray. What I'm asking is, Did I do something wrong or is this just another example of the "CR = class level" system gone awry?
I doubt it. At higher levels NPCs have to be very carefully planned out and prepared to deal a real threat I tend to find. Without that sort of preparations they don't tend to meet out the threat that they are supposed to be. If you really think they are so over powered toss a high CR 'monster' at them, these in my opinion are much tougher than a high CR NPC in most cases.
I don't think your PC's are overpowered. As they get to higher levels they gain access to more save-or-die abilities. Disintegrate is just the beginning. The best way of dealing with this is make sure your PC's are never at full strength when they get to that type of encounter. NPC's make great villians, but they don't get some of the resistances and immunities that higher CR monsters get. This means they have to be played smarter to be as effective. Always remember Spell Resistance and Spell Immunity are your best friends. If these PC's have a pantented Disintegrate manuever, the NPC's should have known and prepared a way of dealing with it.
And your campaign isn't in shambles. 20th level NPC'a have 20th level friends with access to True Res and Wish. Just piece it together.
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I've come across similar situations (early-teen PCs taking out CR20 demon lords/NPCs). It actually makes sense, too, though, simply because beings with that kind of experience are more the "Big Boss", not random encounters - PCs are intended to slog through minions upon minions before facing off against tough peoples. If the PCs are brave, have a well-thought out plan, and good teamwork, they can definitely take on more challenging opponents.
I would agree with the post that suggested using resurrection/wish as a probable way to bring your NPCs back for vengeance ... they don't even have to have high-levelled allies, a preemptive wish or clone could come into play quite easily.
Kudos to the PCs as well; it's much better to hear tales about PCs taking on tough opponents as opposed to getting thrashed by peons because they weren't planning well.
Director of Narrative
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This past Sunday I had a similar experience. I had a location, where the party was supposed to run into some old enemies, run by high-level NPCs that were not intended to be combatants, then one PC decided that "all bets were off" and began attacking them. To his credit, the NPCs were not the most savory folk, but his N alignment seemed in conflict with him attacking a brothel proprietor (three sisters actually) just because his party had the big fight taken care of. His attacking the NPCs lead to the others attacking them. I wouldn't have much of the story left, without some stretching, if it wasn't for the Dwarven cleric subduing one of the sisters and capturing her.
Regardless, I wasn't fully prepared for that outcome and quite honestly played it poorly. It happens. That's the lot of a DM. I do something I like to call Monday-morning-quarterbacking, which actually happens Sunday nights when I come home and either rant or rave to my wife, who once played D&D, but hasn't since 3e came out, about how the game went. After the rant/rave session I go over the whole night and sort out what I could have done better and how things could have gone worse. I feel a thorough review of a session immediately following it is a good way to improve situations.
If you have been playing with these players since they were 1st level then I'm sure you know HOW they play and can tailor an enounter to their actions, granted players always find a crack in that logic. Hence my failure this Sunday. Something else to keep in mind is that players will "pull out all the stops" when it comes to fighting against all odds. When they are out numbered they play better than when the challenge is easy. Sometimes they don't get into that mode until the battle is 4-5 rounds into it and they realize that the frail, pale, albino has already blasted three of their party members down to 1/4 their HP. Sometimes they clean up and you sit there the next day noticing that if you had only used [insert magic item/combat gear] earlier you'd have had it or realize that you lost two move actions in your on the fly decision making process.
One thing I've learned is to never resist taking your time to decide an action by your NPCs/critters. The pause really helps build suspense.
I agree with what has already been said by the others here, one bad roll (fort in your case) can have that impact. You might want to look carefully at what your PC's gained by way of magic items off the now dead NPC's, this could have an effect on they strengh/power.
Another option for your story could be that these were "supposedly able" leiutentants to something/someone bigger. Dragon maybe?
NPCs just can't compete with PCs because of the wealth gap. Looking at the wealth charts, your NPCs had only twice the cash that your PCs had. Granted, I'd expect these two to at least put up a decent fight too but I think that the unlucky Fort save is only part of the problem.
Point in case: how much cash did the NPC rogue spend on boosting his fort save? how much did the PC caster spend to boost the save DC? I'm willing to bet that there was a big difference, at least relatively speaking.
I see. Thanks for the input.
There's another question I meant to ask: I put the 13 Paladin (the same one that took out the 20th-level guys) alone against the Monster Manual's Half-Dragon 4th-level fighter (CR 6), thinking that he would easily slaughter the thing with his smite evil and move on.
Suffice it to say, by the end of the battle, Reis (the pally) was forced to flee on his mount and regroup. I totally do not understand this. He can knock down the level 20 rogue, but give him some solitude and the level 4 fighter with a few special powers and a two-bladed sword comes in and he's effectively down for the count!?
Our last experience was the same in reverse. We fought an approximately equivalent level party and thought we'd rip them up. (We often fight well above our apparent level.)
The Cleric failed his save on a Stone to Flesh spell in round 1. Despite krisping a foe or two in a couple of combat rounds, we were forced to retreat or face a TPK.
So, yeah-- mid and high level combats seem to be very swingy, depending greatly on who fails their save first.
First off, don't worry your players are not overpowered. This is just part of the game. Because it is a game based on probability and dice rolls, every once in a while something improbable is going to happen. Either the players are going to have trouble with a really easy foe, or they are going to completely own something that by all rights should have killed them. It's just going to happen from time to time pretty much no matter what (unless you fugde die rolls, something I only recomend doing in the players favor).
This is ok however because players LOVE it when stuff like this happens. Nothing makes a group of players feel better than sweeping the floor with guys who were way more powerful than themselves. After all, everybody likes to win right? If the players had a memorable time then you've won too.
If this messed up your story, I'm sorry, believe me I know how annoying this can be. (messing up plot lines is another thing players will do from time to time no matter what.) However, you have a whole week to come up with a patch for your story. Either rez them like others we posting or say that they were only henchmen or that their friends want revenge now, or whatever. Its like stage acting, when someone messes up their line and you adlib it, as long as you pretend like everything is going as planned the audience will never be the wiser.
I think the thing that is suppossed to make high level NPCs powerful is planning. This can be in two forms.
The first being the knowledgeable types that always knows what's going on around them, so they are very prepared. Did these know your PCs were coming? Did they know their usual tactics? A Spell Immunity scroll or two would change a lot verses the Disentigrate spells. Or even just spell resistance scrolls. Heck even a low level Touch of Idiocy spell on a scroll in a high level Rogue's hand's could be devistating to a spell caster.
The other type are the ones that may not always know what's going on around them but are prepared for anything. Attacked by PCs when you weren't expecting it, then teleport to safety and send in your cannon fodder first. Rings of spell storing with telleport or dimension door can do a lot for a NPC that knows he has enemies. It's one thing the deck out an NPC with the usual uber weapon and armor plur a ring of protection, a cloak of resistance and an amunlet of natural armor. But what really makes them powerful the unusual items that provide the much needed escape plan or to fill in their weaknesses. A high level rogue can pretty much use any magic item with Use magic Device. Staves, wands you name it they can be really deadly.
You were expecting them to run, so I'm guessing you didn't have the NPCs totally prepared for this event. We all do it, it's no big deal. I'm sure the PCs will have a rude awakening when they meet the next bunch of high level NPCs. ;)
OK, now I've got a pretty good idea of what to do. Tell me how this sounds...
Since the two high-leveled guys are pretty, you know, HIGH LEVEL and since they work for an organization in which each member is gifted with direct access and communication with a deity, they are obviously going to get a True Resurrection and such. Knowing their enemies' tactics, they are going to really suit up, meaning I'll give them everything a 20th-level PC would come with, including cloaks of resistance, amulets of natural armor, and items to increase spell resistance and saves.
If the PCs again manage to beat these guys (highly unlikely, since their usual marching order leaves a wide gap in which the rogue is going to put a well-placed Prismatic Wall that will seperate the casters from the paladin and ninja.), they will have scrolls of greater teleport so they can regroup and plan. Oh yeah, did I mention they're gonna leave behind some rather unhappy glabrezus in their wake? THAT should get the PCs a-running, and that can be how I progress the story.
Does it sound good?
The True Res. is a great idea to keep the story going. Since the last fight sounds like it was pretty "straight up" I would say to use the rogue the way they should be used. Sneaky and stealthy, maybe attacking the party right after a minor battle that burned up some spells/scrolls, etc. Or attacking at night is always fun, a high level rogue should be able to incapacitate which ever character is on watch.
OK, now I've got a pretty good idea of what to do. Tell me how this sounds...
Since the two high-leveled guys are pretty, you know, HIGH LEVEL and since they work for an organization in which each member is gifted with direct access and communication with a deity, they are obviously going to get a True Resurrection and such. Knowing their enemies' tactics, they are going to really suit up, meaning I'll give them everything a 20th-level PC would come with, including cloaks of resistance, amulets of natural armor, and items to increase spell resistance and saves.
If the PCs again manage to beat these guys (highly unlikely, since their usual marching order leaves a wide gap in which the rogue is going to put a well-placed Prismatic Wall that will seperate the casters from the paladin and ninja.), they will have scrolls of greater teleport so they can regroup and plan. Oh yeah, did I mention they're gonna leave behind some rather unhappy glabrezus in their wake? THAT should get the PCs a-running, and that can be how I progress the story.
Does it sound good?
That sounds much better. Just be careful not to go so far the other direction such that the NPCs have a way to negate evry trick your party has. What you want are NPCs that take a lot of teamwork and effort to take care of not just a few lucky/unlucky rolls. It sounds like your on the right track though.
I have to say that your situation sounds extremely atypical to me, for several reasons:
1. While this is a game of probability and dice, the number of the things rolled during normal combat, and especially during a high-level boss fight, should really balance things out, leaving he with the highest stats and level to win. However, that's not ironclad.
2. Just last week, I ran a session for a 10th level party in which they were assaulting a mage's tower. While they had an encounter outside the tower, they were able to rest up and enter the structure fully prepared the next day. The first indoor fight was with a pair of wyverns and a shadesteel golem. Total EL is somewhere around 12, maybe 13. They should have been able to get through this with ease. They had plenty of healing and special abilities. Know what happened?
They all died. I pulled a completely unexpected TPK there. Now, the levels I was dealing with were right on the edge of the high levels, but the difference in CR was minimal compared to what you were dealing with. Given, CRs can be a funny thing that don't really accurately depict a challenge against anything more specialized than the average Fighter/Rogue/Wizard/Cleric party, but nevertheless, my experiences make me wonder about what happened at your game.
3. Despite the above anecdote, I, too, have also had the party destroy things that were well above what they should be able to handle. Every time, do you know what the reason was? Poor or no planning on my part. In the above story, I had churned out two adventures in half a week. It was the last session before my group disbanded, and I knew I would just be throwing a series of straight up-fights at the party without much tactical planning, and thus I expected my villains to go down pretty easy. This makes me even more curious about what allowed your group to take down two end-game NPCs. Especially since it sounds like you did put some thought into their actions and equipment.
My guess would be that, counting on base abilities and the gear you had given them, you didn't run them to full-strength, as was mentioned above. Perhaps you wanted to give the party plenty of time to get away, since they weren't meant to die here. However, something went drastically wrong along the way.
But, what's done is done and can't be changed. So, some things to keep in mind for the future are:
1. Obviously, planning. Throw anything save for a few brawlers, designed for this very purpose, at a party in a stand-up fight, and the superior numbers of the party will allowing them to bring all their energy to bear on this foe and decimate him easily. However, with just a little tactical thought about how he should be used (the sneaking rogue, for example, rather than the one that stands there challenging all comers), and the challenge quickly appears. If you actually sit and think out some real tactics, the near-genius level things that high-level baddies should know (which can be difficult and time consuming since we aren't them, but you do have the benefit of time and being the DM), then their CR falls short of the real threat these foes pose to a party.
2. Minions. As I said above, creatures taking on the party alone get shredded. Throw in multiple creatures, and the threat goes up greatly, since they have to break their energies amongst the various targets. Two creatures of a lower CR in a fight are much scarrier than one of a higher CR. If you had thrown even a few ogre barbarians, of a lowly (to your party) CR 7, the challenge would have been so much more. Numbers are essential to high-level BBEGs, as it gives them the time to really bring all their badness to bear. Similarly, they are never the first fight, but the culmination of a long trek through their evil fortress, so the party is worn down significantly by the time they arrive.
3. That mention of using a greater teleport or some such is more profound than many realize. When a villain uses something like greater teleport, they can go almost anywhere. Anywhere. The party has little to no chance of finding him without some killer divinations. This gives him plenty of time to plan and plot tactics and situations to exactly counter almost every gimmick the party has, and it doesn't seem unfair, either, but rather, wickedly intelligent. Also, using look-alikes and clones is amazingly effective, too. Not only does the enemy not die, the party thinks he does and will be caught completely unprepared when he appears again.
In the end, something unusual and strange happened in your game, but that does occur from time to time, and it's in the past, so don't worry about it. Rather, be glad you had this opportunity to look over the topic of high level play and use the advice on this thread to make future encoutners not just challenging, but outright deadly.
The most likely explanation, at least at a cursory glance, is that non-casters of a Very High Level are often no match for a good caster of a High Level esepcially when supported by a couple meat shields. If that paladin and ninja can simply NOT DIE for a couple rounds, that should be enough for the wizard to kill the rogue with a fortitude save, and take out the fighter with a will save.
Think about it this way: you have two expert swordsmen in armor fighting two super-expert swordsmen in armor. Neither side is going to gain an immediate decisive edge, but the guys who are only experts also have a third friend with a .50 sniper rifle who just needs enough time to reload and aim.
The most likely explanation, at least at a cursory glance, is that non-casters of a Very High Level are often no match for a good caster of a High Level esepcially when supported by a couple meat shields. If that paladin and ninja can simply NOT DIE for a couple rounds, that should be enough for the wizard to kill the rogue with a fortitude save, and take out the fighter with a will save.
Think about it this way: you have two expert swordsmen in armor fighting two super-expert swordsmen in armor. Neither side is going to gain an immediate decisive edge, but the guys who are only experts also have a third friend with a .50 sniper rifle who just needs enough time to reload and aim.
GREAT ANALOGY. This helps me see it a bit more clearly now.
I went through my notes and tried to restructure the battle on my grid and minis at home. I found a couple of ways I could have made the battle harder for my PCs:
1. I counted way too much on my Rogue's initiative modifier, so much so that I forgot that the Ninja had one of comparable size. I expected the Rogue to decimate one of the casters with a sneak attack, but she instead got walloped by a sudden strike and lost the initiative battle to the Wizard, who was the one that fried her with a disintegrate.
2. The fighter had stuff to improve his saves, so much so that his armor and weapon were underwhelming +2's, which are simply unacceptable for 19th-level melee kings. This resulted in a couple of missed critical opportunities when his threat rolls against the paladin went awry.
3. I forgot about the rogue's Improved Evasion, which would have helped her immensely against the disintegrate.
So, now I've got a good idea of what to do next time the PCs inevitably encounter these guys. These forums rock! It's like a vast pool of DM knowledge that I can draw from for assistance!
Improved Evasion doesn't help against a Disintigrate ray, since it doesn't allow for a Reflex save. Defensive Roll doesn't work, either, since the special ability specifically says it doesn't work against spells. So, your rogue has little defense against the death rays from that aspect. Your best bet here is going to be giving them Spell Resistance, Spell Immunity, Protection from Spells, Rings of Counterspells, and give the rogue some items (scrolls, wands, staves, whatever) that let him cast Greater Dispel Magic. Then, if he gets an opening (remember to throw some minions in to soak up some of the party's attention and damage!), have him ready that and use it against those annoying, disintigrating wizards.