I want to know the LA for a Yuan-ti Abomination that takes class levels up to Epic level...I'm looking to create a General, a Cleric/Fighter perhaps, for a Yuan-ti Army, and while I don't necessarily think that the Yuan-ti's organizational system supports a single general for an army, I'd like to know more about level-adjustment since I'm totally new to DMing and in this case I want a baddie of at least almost Epic proportions, say 15th-20th level at least. (I know I want half-breeds at 15th level actually.) I might be tipping a hand to one potential player by this thread, but I doubt he'll mind too much since he's one of my DMs now. (I am also aware of the Sorceress/Cleric of Orcus leader of the Yuan-ti, so I'm curious as to her class level should my pcs be daring or stupid enough to enter her realm should they reach anything near 20th level and beyond.)
I also read something about a Vampire Yuan-ti (Ghostwalk or Libris Mortis, probably the former- or here), and also think that would be a nasty monster to add to my campaign, but even with the +8 LA from Vampire, I'm a little to a lot cloudy on how that works out.
In addition, I'm going to go over the Stirges for 14th level thread for ideas... <sinister smile
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I want to know the LA for a Yuan-ti Abomination that takes class levels up to Epic level...I'm looking to create a General, a Cleric/Fighter perhaps, for a Yuan-ti Army, and while I don't necessarily think that the Yuan-ti's organizational system supports a single general for an army, I'd like to know more about level-adjustment since I'm totally new to DMing and in this case I want a baddie of at least almost Epic proportions, say 15th-20th level at least. (I know I want half-breeds at 15th level actually.) I might be tipping a hand to one potential player by this thread, but I doubt he'll mind too much since he's one of my DMs now. (I am also aware of the Sorceress/Cleric of Orcus leader of the Yuan-ti, so I'm curious as to her class level should my pcs be daring or stupid enough to enter her realm should they reach anything near 20th level and beyond.)
I also read something about a Vampire Yuan-ti (Ghostwalk or Libris Mortis, probably the former- or here), and also think that would be a nasty monster to add to my campaign, but even with the +8 LA from Vampire, I'm a little to a lot cloudy on how that works out.
In addition, I'm going to go over the Stirges for 14th level thread for ideas... <sinister smile
Not quite sure what you are looking for or asking for. It looks like you have a whole lot of ideas in your head and are trying to sift through them...
As to Yuan-Ti, are you looking for templates to apply to the creatures or are you looking for how to advance them to an equivalent 15-20 level character? (or both?)
If you are interested in the Yuan-Ti, you should look at the Serpent Kingdoms book set in the Forgotten Realms setting.
I have to agree with looking up Serpent Kingdoms. Even if you aren't a Forgotten Realms fan (as I am, most definately), there a lots of things in Serpent Kingdoms that can be used in a non-Forgotten Realms campaign.
For example, the books has several "yuan-ti flavored" spells, and several prestige classes specifically for nagas and yuan-ti, including ones that are specifically for "leader" types.
Have to third the opinion on Serpent Kingdoms. Ignore the setting - there's plenty of crunchy bits to be had.
How about creating an item that the Yuan-ti Abomination General wears that temporarily adds the pseudonatural template? That would be messed-up in the extreme. A fleshwarper PrC would be interesting as well.
If you've got the Expanded Psionics Handbook, a Soulknife would be a fun class to add. Heck, the Psion Uncarnate or Thrallherd PrC would be fun as well.
but even with the +8 LA from Vampire, I'm a little to a lot cloudy on how that works out.
Quick overview, Level Adjustment is basically a game balance tool. Some races/monsters and naturally more powerful than others due to high stat bonuses, large numbers of special abilities or both. To compensate, these races are given a level adjustment. This basically adds onto the creatures total level. Thus a creature with a LA of 3 and no class levels should be a fair match for a character of third level. Characters with LA can go on to get class levels, no problem, but their first "level" is considered to be one higher than their LA. Therefore, said creature with an LA of 3 who takes a level of fighter, would be considered level 4 and would have to gain as much XP as a normal character trying to progress from level 3 to level 4.
Things like "vampire" are templates. These work slightly differently. Plent of books have templates in them, the monster manual being a prime example. Templates can be added to any creature that meets the templates requirements. Then you just add on the special abilities, stat adjustments, dissadvantages, whatever to the creature and there you go.
Anyhow, hope this helps.
but even with the +8 LA from Vampire, I'm a little to a lot cloudy on how that works out.Quick overview, Level Adjustment is basically a game balance tool. Some races/monsters and naturally more powerful than others due to high stat bonuses, large numbers of special abilities or both. To compensate, these races are given a level adjustment. This basically adds onto the creatures total level. Thus a creature with a LA of 3 and no class levels should be a fair match for a character of third level. Characters with LA can go on to get class levels, no problem, but their first "level" is considered to be one higher than their LA. Therefore, said creature with an LA of 3 who takes a level of fighter, would be considered level 4 and would have to gain as much XP as a normal character trying to progress from level 3 to level 4.
Things like "vampire" are templates. These work slightly differently. Plent of books have templates in them, the monster manual being a prime example. Templates can be added to any creature that meets the templates requirements. Then you just add on the special abilities, stat adjustments, dissadvantages, whatever to the creature and there you go.
Anyhow, hope this helps.
It does help. But I'm I was inquiring as to the LA for Yuan-ti, specifically Abominations, but Half-breeds and purebloods as well. but I just found it, apparently I had overlooked it in the Monster Manual.
I want to know the LA for a Yuan-ti Abomination that takes class levels up to Epic level...I'm looking to create a General, a Cleric/Fighter perhaps, for a Yuan-ti Army, and while I don't necessarily think that the Yuan-ti's organizational system supports a single general for an army, I'd like to know more about level-adjustment since I'm totally new to DMing and in this case I want a baddie of at least almost Epic proportions, say 15th-20th level at least. (I know I want half-breeds at 15th level actually.) I might be tipping a hand to one potential player by this thread, but I doubt he'll mind too much since he's one of my DMs now. (I am also aware of the Sorceress/Cleric of Orcus leader of the Yuan-ti, so I'm curious as to her class level should my pcs be daring or stupid enough to enter her realm should they reach anything near 20th level and beyond.)
I also read something about a Vampire Yuan-ti (Ghostwalk or Libris Mortis, probably the former- or here), and also think that would be a nasty monster to add to my campaign, but even with the +8 LA from Vampire, I'm a little to a lot cloudy on how that works out.
In addition, I'm going to go over the Stirges for 14th level thread for ideas... <sinister smile
Not quite sure what you are looking for or asking for. It looks like you have a whole lot of ideas in your head and are trying to sift through them...
As to Yuan-Ti, are you looking for templates to apply to the creatures or are you looking for how to advance them to an equivalent 15-20 level character? (or both?)
If you are interested in the Yuan-Ti, you should look at the Serpent Kingdoms book set in the Forgotten Realms setting.
Thanks for the book advice, I'll look it up and see if they have it at my local Gaming shop.
I found LA numbers, but I'm still looking for precedent (funny word to use here I guess) for Yuan-ti taking class levels, as in what class levels and for instance, a lot of class levels. This would be for NPCs, but things like XP might figure in since I've got this idea to have them do battles in the background of the setting that might up the Xp of the mid to high level Yuan-Ti.
so a 20th Level 10 Cleric/10 Fighter Yuan-ti would have a CR of 27? or am I missing something here?
Have to third the opinion on Serpent Kingdoms. Ignore the setting - there's plenty of crunchy bits to be had.
How about creating an item that the Yuan-ti Abomination General wears that temporarily adds the pseudonatural template? That would be messed-up in the extreme. A fleshwarper PrC would be interesting as well.
If you've got the Expanded Psionics Handbook, a Soulknife would be a fun class to add. Heck, the Psion Uncarnate or Thrallherd PrC would be fun as well.
Those are some crazy ideas, but I don't think an alienist is amongst the Yuan-ti, to alter their form in such a manner would seem...out of character? They do have the whole Snake Motif and going up in arms with it pretty well under control. Tell me more about the Fleshwarper and where to find it though. My Yuan-ti clerics will worship Orcus. (they'll be at varying levels, but a couple will be 15th level Abominations)
I don't have the complete psionics handbook, but that does seem like an idea to use with the Yuan-ti, they would use Psionics, no?
when I'm done with my 15th and 20th level Abominations and other Yuan-ti, I'll add them to the NPC stat bank.
Those are some crazy ideas, but I don't think an alienist is amongst the Yuan-ti, to alter their form in such a manner would seem...out of character? They do have the whole Snake Motif and going up in arms with it pretty well under control. Tell me more about the Fleshwarper and where to find it though. My Yuan-ti clerics will worship Orcus. (they'll be at varying levels, but a couple will be 15th level Abominations)
I don't have the complete psionics handbook, but that does seem like an idea to use with the Yuan-ti, they would use Psionics, no?
when I'm done with my 15th and 20th level Abominations and other Yuan-ti, I'll add them to the NPC stat bank.
Since they're called "abominations" by their own kind, an egotistical one might want to remake others in his own image, whether by arcane means (alienist) or fleshy graftings (fleshwarper from Lords of Madness).
If you're yuan-ti are Orcus-worshippers, some of the PrCs from Book of Vile Darkness or the Fiendish Codex might be appropriate as well.
The Thrallherd, Psion Uncarnate and Soulknife classes are in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Haven't had much time to dig through the Complete Psionics, but undoubtedly there's some good stuff in there.
Those are some crazy ideas, but I don't think an alienist is amongst the Yuan-ti, to alter their form in such a manner would seem...out of character? They do have the whole Snake Motif and going up in arms with it pretty well under control. Tell me more about the Fleshwarper and where to find it though. My Yuan-ti clerics will worship Orcus. (they'll be at varying levels, but a couple will be 15th level Abominations)
I don't have the complete psionics handbook, but that does seem like an idea to use with the Yuan-ti, they would use Psionics, no?
when I'm done with my 15th and 20th level Abominations and other Yuan-ti, I'll add them to the NPC stat bank.
Since they're called "abominations" by their own kind, an egotistical one might want to remake others in his own image, whether by arcane means (alienist) or fleshy graftings (fleshwarper from Lords of Madness).
If you're yuan-ti are Orcus-worshippers, some of the PrCs from Book of Vile Darkness or the Fiendish Codex might be appropriate as well.
The Thrallherd, Psion Uncarnate and Soulknife classes are in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Haven't had much time to dig through the Complete Psionics, but undoubtedly there's some good stuff in there.
Erm, I meant the Expanded Psionics Handbook, there are so many useful COMPLETE books. (though I don't count the Divine as one of them, I decided against buying it on a tax free holiday)
I'll check out Lords of Madness, and I'll probably buy the Book of Vile Darkness...since I'm already on a particularly vile kick with the Libris Mortis and Ghostwalk books. (though Ghostwalk is hardly that vile, it still has undead and such in it)
I'll even consider a necromancer Yuan-ti, though I'm a bit confused as to what type would most likely be an arcane spellcaster. Though if I gave them enough levels, I could go for the True Necromancer and they're totally divine spellcasters.
I do think the Abomination General, though a mid to high level cleric himself, would also have a prestige class, the Thrallherd or the Psion Uncarnate sound fitting.
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I found LA numbers, but I'm still looking for precedent (funny word to use here I guess) for Yuan-ti taking class levels, as in what class levels and for instance, a lot of class levels. This would be for NPCs, but things like XP might figure in since I've got this idea to have them do battles in the background of the setting that might up the Xp of the mid to high level Yuan-Ti.
so a 20th Level 10 Cleric/10 Fighter Yuan-ti would have a CR of 27? or am I missing something here?
How new to DMing are you? It sounds like you are fairly new. If you are fairly new to DMing, I would STRONGLY suggest that you try and keep things as simple as you possibly can. There is a LOT of information out there and keeping track of it all can be a huge undertaking. Simply utilizing a 20th level Yuan-Ti Abomination to its fullest is not necessarily an easy task.
As I understand differences between LA and CR -- LA is to find some equivelancy between with character levels and powerful creatures. With LA you would add Base Hit Die (if greater than one) + LA + Character Levels. This should be about as powerful as another creature of that level. For instance: A 20th level Cleric Yuan-Ti Abomination should be close to the equivalent to a 36th level character (in theory). (9 (HD) + 7 (LA) + 20 (Levels).) At higher levels, the LA may break down a bit, but it seems fairly close for the most part. To find a CR for a creature that the DM controls, you should just add the CR + Character Levels. So, a 20th level Cleric Yuan-Ti Abomination should force a 27th level party of four to use up around 1/4 of their resources defeating this creature (give or take).
Adding prestige classes and/or templates can quickly change things and force you to keep track of a lot more information.
From experience -- It is very easy for newer DMs to get very frustrated with themselves (for forgetting a key part of their creature) or with the group (for killing a creature in 4 minutes that took you 5 days to come up with). Just because you may have played at high levels doesn't mean that DMing high levels is the same. I have been DMing for the better part of 16 years and I am even more careful now with high level campaigns than ever before.
My suggestion as far as your Yuan-Ti would be to keep it a straight forward Cleric. Take a good look at the Complete Arcane and Complete Divine. Give it some really good Divine and Metamagic feats -- especially quicken spell. With the extra HD of Monstrous Humanoid, it will help make up for its BAB. High level cleric spells rock and if played right would mess up any party of approximately similar level without any prestige class or template -- and it would be a little (you would still have to keep track of your spells) easier to run.
Take your time and figure out the "ins and outs" of DMing. You will have lots of time to add templates and prestige classes in the future.
Hope that this helps...
Bill
Punkassjoe, check out the “Yuan-Ti Cultist” PrC in Savage Species (page 97).
The (first) ten cleric levels to an abomination adds +5 to CR, because they’re non-associated. Adding ten levels of Yuan-Ti Cultist (or another ten levels of cleric) adds +10 to CR, for an overall CR of 22.
On the other hand, if you want stacking bonuses to allies, give it high levels of Divine Mind (Complete Psionic) instead and maybe a few levels of Marshal (Miniatures Handbook). If you don’t have the latter book, check out the Abomination Cult Leader on page 186 of the Monster Manual IV for an abomination 4th-level marshal. Note that these class levels are all non-associated (even if you are using a psionic yuan-ti variant). For example, an abomination divine mind16/marshal4 is CR 22.
And for a real kick, give the yuan-ti troops levels of dragon shaman (Player’s Handbook II), which are again non-associated. ALL the bonuses stack.Hope this helps.
PS. Check the back of the MM if you don’t know what non-associated classes are.
PPS. You could always rename dragon shaman to “Mershaulk Shaman”, using green dragons as the totem type if you want to remove the (flavor text) dragon elements.
I think CR 22 is more of what I'm going for, depending on the levels that the player characters reach
Thanks for the advice on classes! (I'll certainly check out savage species, though I don't know when I might be able to buy it and/or MM4 though I know my local gaming shop has them both, I think they have the MM4 anyway.)
I found LA numbers, but I'm still looking for precedent (funny word to use here I guess) for Yuan-ti taking class levels, as in what class levels and for instance, a lot of class levels. This would be for NPCs, but things like XP might figure in since I've got this idea to have them do battles in the background of the setting that might up the Xp of the mid to high level Yuan-Ti.
so a 20th Level 10 Cleric/10 Fighter Yuan-ti would have a CR of 27? or am I missing something here?
How new to DMing are you? It sounds like you are fairly new. If you are fairly new to DMing, I would STRONGLY suggest that you try and keep things as simple as you possibly can. There is a LOT of information out there and keeping track of it all can be a huge undertaking. Simply utilizing a 20th level Yuan-Ti Abomination to its fullest is not necessarily an easy task.
As I understand differences between LA and CR -- LA is to find some equivelancy between with character levels and powerful creatures. With LA you would add Base Hit Die (if greater than one) + LA + Character Levels. This should be about as powerful as another creature of that level. For instance: A 20th level Cleric Yuan-Ti Abomination should be close to the equivalent to a 36th level character (in theory). (9 (HD) + 7 (LA) + 20 (Levels).) At higher levels, the LA may break down a bit, but it seems fairly close for the most part. To find a CR for a creature that the DM controls, you should just add the CR + Character Levels. So, a 20th level Cleric Yuan-Ti Abomination should force a 27th level party of four to use up around 1/4 of their resources defeating this creature (give or take).
Adding prestige classes and/or templates can quickly change things and force you to keep track of a lot more information.
From experience -- It is very easy for newer DMs to get very frustrated with themselves (for forgetting a key part of their creature) or with the group (for killing a creature in 4 minutes that took you 5 days to come up...
Thanks for the cautionary advice, between that and the obvious LA of +7 I think I'll tone down the Yuan-ti abomination unless the campaign goes REALLY slow. I think a straight up cleric may be the best move too, but I really think the Cultist that ericthecleric mentions is more what the General would be like.
(theoretically the introduction of these npcs would be either for the last or 2nd to last major battle based on LA and CR, if I'm adding up any numbers correctly.)
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Thanks for the cautionary advice, between that and the obvious LA of +7 I think I'll tone down the Yuan-ti abomination unless the campaign goes REALLY slow. I think a straight up cleric may be the best move too, but I really think the Cultist that ericthecleric mentions is more what the General would be like.
(theoretically the introduction of these npcs would be either for the last or 2nd to last major battle based on LA and CR, if I'm adding up any numbers correctly.)
You will find a LOT of really great advice on a lot of these posts. One thing to keep in mind is that a lot of prestige classes and templates and such are as much "feel" as anything. A lot of the desired effect can still be accomplished without giving the creature(s) in question any additional abilities. A couple of examples -- the Grafter is a great idea, but the cleric doesn't "need" the prestige class for the players to break into his workspace and see all of his "creations" and be disgusted. A cleric can be a cultist without the prestige class as well. A Yuan-Ti could have red scales instead of being a Half-Fiend. Take the ideas that you get from here and from other places as well and incorporate them into your character concept, but don't feel that you HAVE to use the prestige class as written to get your point across as to what kind of character this is.
Good luck with this character...
Thanks for the cautionary advice, between that and the obvious LA of +7 I think I'll tone down the Yuan-ti abomination unless the campaign goes REALLY slow. I think a straight up cleric may be the best move too, but I really think the Cultist that ericthecleric mentions is more what the General would be like.
(theoretically the introduction of these npcs would be either for the last or 2nd to last major battle based on LA and CR, if I'm adding up any numbers correctly.)
You will find a LOT of really great advice on a lot of these posts. One thing to keep in mind is that a lot of prestige classes and templates and such are as much "feel" as anything. A lot of the desired effect can still be accomplished without giving the creature(s) in question any additional abilities. A couple of examples -- the Grafter is a great idea, but the cleric doesn't "need" the prestige class for the players to break into his workspace and see all of his "creations" and be disgusted. A cleric can be a cultist without the prestige class as well. A Yuan-Ti could have red scales instead of being a Half-Fiend. Take the ideas that you get from here and from other places as well and incorporate them into your character concept, but don't feel that you HAVE to use the prestige class as written to get your point across as to what kind of character this is.
Good luck with this character...
Thanks, I'll keep this in mind, one of the campaigns I'm in doesn't focus on prestige classes, instead focusing on what characters can be if they take certain feats instead of what is normally ascribed.
Those are some crazy ideas, but I don't think an alienist is amongst the Yuan-ti, to alter their form in such a manner would seem...out of character? They do have the whole Snake Motif and going up in arms with it pretty well under control. Tell me more about the Fleshwarper and where to find it though. My Yuan-ti clerics will worship Orcus. (they'll be at varying levels, but a couple will be 15th level Abominations)
I don't have the complete psionics handbook, but that does seem like an idea to use with the Yuan-ti, they would use Psionics, no?
when I'm done with my 15th and 20th level Abominations and other Yuan-ti, I'll add them to the NPC stat bank.
Since they're called "abominations" by their own kind, an egotistical one might want to remake others in his own image, whether by arcane means (alienist) or fleshy graftings (fleshwarper from Lords of Madness).
If you're yuan-ti are Orcus-worshippers, some of the PrCs from Book of Vile Darkness or the Fiendish Codex might be appropriate as well.
The Thrallherd, Psion Uncarnate and Soulknife classes are in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Haven't had much time to dig through the Complete Psionics, but undoubtedly there's some good stuff in there.
Since I just picked up Savage Species, I think I'm going to stick with the Yuan-ti Cultist (with Orcus as the prereq worshipped deity instead of Mershaulk), but while I have access to the Expanded Psionics handbook through a fellow gamer I might just have to check out the Thrallherd, but I doubt I'll use it when the Cultist fits the character so well. I'll have to look up Serpent Kingdoms, but so far I haven't found it. I'll look in the Book of Vile Darkness next time I'm at the shop where I bought Savage Species.