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If I have a +1 longsword and use one of the listed class abilities to increase it to a +6 longsword for 1 minute, would that sword be able to bypass Cold-Iron/Silver, Adamantine and Alignment per the "Overcoming DR" rules?
Overcoming DR: Damage reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment.
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have).
Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.
The rules don't care where the bonus comes from, only what the (highest) bonus is. Since those abilities stack with an existing bonus, they do indeed help overcome DR.
However, a +6 isn't possible: "A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including from character abilities and spells) higher than +10." CRB pg. 468
The rules don't care where the bonus comes from, only what the (highest) bonus is. Since those abilities stack with an existing bonus, they do indeed help overcome DR.
However, a +6 isn't possible: "A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including from character abilities and spells) higher than +10." CRB pg. 468
A +6 could be obtained via Bane triggering. Are you aware of any official rulings on this though? I've seen discussions of permanent bonuses vs temporary bonuses, yet there's been no FAQ for this specific instance that I could find.
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Weapon Bonuses: Can weapon special abilities (such as bane) or class abilities (such as a paladin's divine bond) allow you to exceed the +5 enhancement bonus limit and the +10 bonus-equivalent limitation?
For the enhancement bonus limitation, it depends on the specific effect or ability that's altering the weapon.
Bane: This allows the weapon to exceed the +5 limit, but only against the designated creature type. For example, a +5 dragon-bane longsword is normally a +5 weapon, but has a +7 enhancement bonus against dragons and deals +2d6 points of damage against dragons.
Paladin: The divine bond ability says "These [enhancement] bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5." That means if a paladin has a +5 longsword, she can't use her divine bond to increate the enhancement bonus to +6 or higher (but she could use her bonuses to add abilities such as flaming to the weapon).
The +10 bonus-equivalent limitation is a hard cap for all weapons; you can't exceed that even with class abilities or other unusual abilities.
DR/Epic: How do the new rules for overcoming DR/epic (page 7) interact with weapon special abilities that have variable enhancement bonuses, such as bane and furious?
Essentially, there are now two ways to overcome DR/epic with magic weapons.
The first way is presented in the Universal Monster Rules in the Bestiary: You can use a weapon that has an actual enhancement bonus of +6 or higher. Currently the Pathfinder RPG has no weapons with a permanent +6 or higher enhancement bonus (though you can temporarily achieve a +6 or higher enhancement bonus with certain magical or class abilities).
The second way is presented in Mythic Adventures: You can use a weapon that has a total "plus-equivalent" of +6 or higher. For example, a +1 vorpal longsword and a +2 flaming frost shock keen longsword both are +6-equivalent magic weapons.
A weapon with a conditional or variable enhancement bonus, such as bane or furious, gets the best of both options. As a baseline, it include the plus-equivalences for its enhancement bonuses and special abilities; when the conditional or variable enhancement bonuses activate, it adds those to its total as well.
For example, a +3 undead-bane longsword is a +4-equivalent weapon, which on its own is not enough to overcome DR/epic. When used against an undead creature, its enhancement bonus increases by an additional +2, making it effectively a +6-equivalent weapon (+3 baseline enhancement bonus, +1-equivalent from bane, +2 conditional enhancement bonus against undead from bane) and therefore able to overcome that undead creature's DR/epic. (Another way of looking at it is when bane is active, you add its conditional +2 enhancement bonus to the weapon's normal +4-equivalent bonus, temporarily giving you a +6-equivalent weapon).
posted September 2013 | back to top
Bane and Furious AFAIK are the two abilities that allow you to go above +5.
The bypassing DR rules make no mention of permanent or temporary bonuses, therefore they don't differentiate. Also, the only thing where temporary bonuses have any differences from permanent ones are ability score bonuses (and that was pretty much nixed by this FAQ).
A "you need a permanent <whatever" argument is made from time to time (usually for prereqs), but there's never a rule quote that actually supports that.
A +6 could be obtained via Bane triggering.
Well, yeah (and it does help for DR!). How you wrote it sounded like you wanted to add straight enhancement bonus, so I wanted to make sure.
Thanks for the replies, but I'm less concerned about the +5 limit and more concerned if there's any faq or ruling that specifically allows the class abilities mentioned to overcome DR with a weapon.
The enhancement bonus from Bane has been specifically called out to allow a weapon to count for overcoming DR.
I just realized that in my OP I listed +6 when it should have read +5. I apologize for any confusion this may have caused.
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It is all in the two FAQs I posted and the ability descriptions:
- the abilities increase the weapon enhancement. Weapon enhancements are weapon enhancement and, barring specific text to the contrary in the single ability description, have all the effects of weapon enhancements. None of the abilities has specific text to the contrary;
- you can increase the enhancement of the weapon up to +5:
- some effect can get it as high as +7 against some target or under some condition;
- the Mithyc FAQ clarifies that the modified value is used to bypass DR.
Thanks for the replies, but I'm less concerned about the +5 limit and more concerned if there's any faq or ruling that specifically allows the class abilities mentioned to overcome DR with a weapon.
You're asking to prove a negative. There is no rules text that states a temporary enhancement bonus doesn't allow you to bypass DR.
The greater magic weapon spell is the only temporary enhancement bonus which says it does not work for overcoming DR, as far as I know. None of the others mentioned above say the same.
Maybe once the authors had thought of making GMW a precedent but with no backup elsewhere it works as a precedent the other way.
You're asking to prove a negative. There is no rules text that states a temporary enhancement bonus doesn't allow you to bypass DR.Thanks for the replies, but I'm less concerned about the +5 limit and more concerned if there's any faq or ruling that specifically allows the class abilities mentioned to overcome DR with a weapon.
This.
The general rule is "Enhancement bonuses overcome DR". In order for temporary bonuses to work differently they'd need specific text stating that they work differently.
The spell Greater Magic Weapon is a temporary bonues that doesn't overcome DR , so you can look here for a precedent.
School transmutation; Level antipaladin 3, arcanist 3, bloodrager 3, cleric 4, inquisitor 3, magus 3, occultist 3, oracle 4, paladin 3, redmantisassassin 3, shaman 4, sorcerer 3, warpriest 4, wizard 3
Casting
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (powdered lime and carbon)Effect
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one weapon or 50 projectiles (all of which must be together at the time of casting)
Duration 1 hour/level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless, object); Spell Resistance yes (harmless, object)Description
This spell functions like magic weapon, except that it gives a weapon an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5). This bonus does not allow a weapon to bypass damage reduction aside from magic.Alternatively, you can affect as many as 50 arrows, bolts, or bullets. The projectiles must be of the same kind, and they have to be together (in the same quiver or other container). Projectiles, but not thrown weapons, lose their transmutation after they are used. Treat shuriken as projectiles, rather than as thrown weapons, for the purpose of this spell.
If a spell or ability doesn't have text like that then the default is that higher enhancement bonuses overcome DR.
I believe RAW they do. I have house ruled Warrior Spirit to not, it's already too good.
I believe RAW they do. I have house ruled Warrior Spirit to not, it's already too good.
We house-ruled that temporary bonuses don't overcome DR for our Carrion Crown game. This was more to make the game challenging than anything else though, we have an Occultist and an Inquisitor in the party, so we have 2 characters who can add the Bane property spontaneously, which makes short work of DR and renders it fairly irrelevant.
Thank you all for the replies. I believe my question was answered.