I am curious to other gamers connection to dragons. I keep seeing a lot of "Dragon" stuff being thrown around. Dragon Shamans, dragon spells, dragon prestige classes, new dragon oriented monsters and races, Ebberronn (I'm with you FH), Dragon feats, Items, Draconic heritage feats, and the new proclimation that this year all WOTCs stuff will be easily dragon accessable.
I'm extreamly tired of it. I know Dragons are one of the D's in D&D. I believe they should be important, special, and valuable to the game itself. However part of being important special and valuable entails being RARE.
Back when I first started playing D&D (Just the 3.5 core books in my case) We fought a dragon. It was scary, it hurt, and it was a hot topic of discussion for the next few weeks. Now any party can walk up to a dragon and A: completely negate all of it's awesomeness by using dragon specific spells and turning it into a fight with an arrogant lizard, B: befriend it because two thirds of the party worship it or are related to it, or channel it's spirit (Dragon Shamans why can they use lay on hands x2? WHY!?) or C: pretend to be its children because every peice of equipment they wear makes them look more like a dragon.
If I'm the minority I'm expecting I will be on this issue then fine. I accept that these are just my opinions and if the greater part of the gaming community wants lots of Dragon stuff then WOTC is doing a great service. Personally I would like to thank them for the advanced warning So I will know to spend my money on other things.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
It's probably cyclical. I'm chewing on this theory that 3e is following the same basic pattern as 2e in terms of products. 2e began with the class books (i.e., the Complete X books), moved into racial books (i.e., Races of Foo), and then petered out with the various option books (i.e., PHB II and DMG II). Along the way, they released a dragon heavy alternative fantasy campaign (Darksun, i.e. Eberron) and a lot of other crap. The 3e material tends to be of better quality, but it's basically the same cycle.
Anyway, the dragon saturation point hit in 2e when they finally went all out and released a campaign setting where you could play as dragons. I'm hoping we are reaching that point soon. I am sick to death with dragons, including dragon abilities, dragon themed monsters, and Eberron's over-dragonization.
The above is all opinion and rambling, and should not be mistaken for actual thought and analysis. I realize the 2e=3e cycle theory is full of holes and paper thin, but I like it, so I'm going to pretend like it works.
C'mon guys, you must not mean that you are psyched about Redspawn Charbroilers, Bluespawn Circutbreakers, Greenspawn Swimmingpoolcleaners, Blackspawn Swampsalivators, and Whitespawn Icecreamakers?
Sorry, this is my thearapy for soothing my frayed nerves from just reading the Spawn of Tiamat names . . .
Sebastian . . . I tried to make a comparison like that one myself. To a degree I'm hoping I'm right, because if they keep to the same cycle, we have till 2009 before 4th edition, may we be that lucky.
Not only were there a lot of themes, race books, etc., but just past the midway point you had the Player's Option type books with new magic systems and class options and the like, which is somewhat analogous to the DMG II, PH II, and the Tome of Magic/Tome of Battle.
If this holds to the pattern, next up, we will actually start seeing products about getting back to basics, like dungeon crawling, campaigning, and the like, with some more monster books thrown in, but with fewer and fewer really weird concept things coming about, until the only thing that should be coming out near the "changeover" will be campaign setting related material, which has enough "lore" in it to still be useful even after a rules change.
If I'm wrong and 4th edition is coming out next year or so, then it won't really matter because I'll be starting a bon fire in the back yard and burning each and every D&D product that I own and washing my hands of the whole obsession, so either way, you know, I'm cool . . .
No, I'm not kidding either.
|
If I'm wrong and 4th edition is coming out next year or so, then it won't really matter because I'll be starting a bon fire in the back yard and burning each and every D&D product that I own and washing my hands of the whole obsession, so either way, you know, I'm cool . . .No, I'm not kidding either.
At least give them away to a used bookstore! Otherwise, you're just playing into Jack Chick's hands! To hell wiss dem! I'm gonna be 86 years old, wavin' my cane at the whippersnappers (78 and under) in the old folks' home, with their 9ed. D&D, sayin, "that ain't D&D!!! 3.5 is D&D!!! Maaaaaaaugh!"
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Not only were there a lot of themes, race books, etc., but just past the midway point you had the Player's Option type books with new magic systems and class options and the like, which is somewhat analogous to the DMG II, PH II, and the Tome of Magic/Tome of Battle.If I'm wrong and 4th edition is coming out next year or so, then it won't really matter because I'll be starting a bon fire in the back yard and burning each and every D&D product that I own and washing my hands of the whole obsession, so either way, you know, I'm cool . . .
No, I'm not kidding either.
That's a good point about the alternative magic systems. I'd forgotten about those.
I've got to say though, I don't understand the hostility towards 4e. It's pretty prevalent among gamers, and it just seems weird compared to everything else that a person purchases for entertainment. It's not unreasonable for a person to purchase a new videgame once a month for $40-$50. The game provides somewhere in the neighborhood of 20-40 hours of entertainment and then you're (more or less) done with it. Yeah, you can play it again after that point, but most of the enjoyment is in the first playing.
Now compare to gaming books. Say you buy one a month. They're cheaper than videogames (albeit, not much these days), the basic system is much cheaper ($90 for the core rules vs. $250 - $400 for a console, or $1500+ for a computer that can run high end games), they provide equivalent amounts of entertainment (if not more), and you can continue using portions of many of them even when a new edition of the core mechanic comes out (the FR hardcover contains a lot of campaign information that is usable even if the mechanics change).
So, if you don't mind purchasing a video game (or two hardback novels, or a month's worth of digital cable, or 3 trips to the movie theatre, or a month's worth of high speed cable internet access, or any number of other disposable entertainment comodities), why do you get so upset about buying a new set of roleplaying books?
Come on, folks. It's the Year of Rogue Dragons! What do you expect? ;-)
There have been quite a few dragon books released recently. Draconomicon, Races of Dragons, Dragons of Faerun is on the way, and of course all those spawn of Tiamat creatures in MM4.
Dragons are always in my campaigns. I had two advanced 50+ HD dragons duke it out in the Astral skies above Tunarath when the PCs made their way to Vlaakith's Palace of Whispers. They were like two Star Destroyers wheeling amidst smaller dragons, Astral ships, and darting spellcasters. The bronze was the symbolic "leader" of the free peoples assaulting Tunarath, while the red was the seneshal of Tunarath itself. Their battle raged across the Astral space over Tunarath, until great magic snatched them to another plane where the red was bested and imprisoned within a great gemstone. I kept it simple. ;-)
I love dragons.
and of course all those spawn of Tiamat creatures in MM4.
Yes . . . we can't forget the Redspawn Cinnamoncandyeater, the Bluespawn Christmaslightdetanlgers, the Greenspawn Gasdispenser, the Blackspawn Garbagedisposal, or the Whitespawn Firexetinquiser . . . agh . . . I know, I need help . . . its a sickness now.
|
|
So, if you don't mind purchasing a video game (or two hardback novels, or a month's worth of digital cable, or 3 trips to the movie theatre, or a month's worth of high speed cable internet access, or any number of other disposable entertainment comodities), why do you get so upset...
I think that's a precise metaphor.
I don't want an xbox 360. I don't want a PS3. They're not that much better, IMO, than PS2 or xbox.I want more games for my PS2.
I can't HAVE more games for my PS2, because they'll only make crappy ones. To get more games, I must either get a PS3 or go jump in a lake.
Similarly,
I'd RATHER have a Greyhawk, Planescape, and Dark Sun hardback, and a buncha adventures, than a 4e of D&D. I'd rather the Eberron guys got all their stuff too, so Takasi would just shut up, and the Eberron guys got something nice. I feel that 3.5 handles it adequately. It's PS2, not Pong. BUT, I can't have those hardbacks, I can't have a buttload of adventures; what I get is either another 3 core rule books, or a jump in a lake.
|
That's a good point about the alternative magic systems. I'd forgotten about those.
I've got to say though, I don't understand the hostility towards 4e. It's pretty prevalent among gamers, and it just seems weird compared to everything else that a person purchases for entertainment. It's not unreasonable for a person to purchase a new videgame once a month for $40-$50. The game provides somewhere in the neighborhood of 20-40 hours of entertainment and then you're (more or less) done with it. Yeah, you can play it again after that point, but most of the enjoyment is in the first playing.
Now compare to gaming books. Say you buy one a month. They're cheaper than videogames (albeit, not much these days), the basic system is much cheaper ($90 for the core rules vs. $250 - $400 for a console, or $1500+ for a computer that can run high end games), they provide equivalent amounts of entertainment (if not more), and you can continue using portions of many of them even when a new edition of the core mechanic comes out (the FR hardcover contains a lot of campaign information that is usable even if the mechanics change).
So, if you don't mind purchasing a video game (or two hardback novels, or a month's worth of digital cable, or 3 trips to the movie theatre, or a month's worth of high speed cable internet access, or any number of other disposable entertainment comodities), why do you get so upset...
Farewelltokings actually opened my eyes a while back by comparing D&D to any hobbies a person has.
Golf-$400+ for a good set of clubs, +green fees, balls, shoes, etc...
Camping/Backpacking-Backpacks, tents, mess kits, proper attire, water purification devices, etc....
Going to the movies-$7-10 a ticket, $15 for food(you know you want the snowcaps too), and gas . $25 dollars+ for 2 hours of entertainment.
D&D- I spend around $600-800 a year on D&D stuff. If you game 1 time a week for 4 hrs at a time it figures out to be $3-4 an hour. Pretty good return on investment if you ask me. Probably one of the cheaper hobbies out there.
FH (Thanks for the education, F2K.)
|
|
Yeah, I'd much rather have 2 more adventure modules, or a Greyhawk hardback, than a 4.0 revamped Player's Handbook.
Just like I'd rather have 9 more xbox games available to buy than an Xbox 360.
I don't think 3.5 is broke. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
BUT...if they're willing to rename the rogue back to thief, I rescind my statement, and I have a plenty big lake not 1/2 mile from my present coordinates.
Heathansson (the Jacques Cousteau of Texas)
|
|
Yeah, I'd much rather have 2 more adventure modules, or a Greyhawk hardback, than a 4.0 revamped Player's Handbook.
Just like I'd rather have 9 more xbox games available to buy than an Xbox 360.
I don't think 3.5 is broke. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
BUT...if they're willing to rename the rogue back to thief, I rescind my statement, and I have a plenty big lake not 1/2 mile from my present coordinates.
Heathansson (the Jacques Cousteau of Texas)
Wish they would produce a few good RPGs for Xbox (not anime). Morrowwind was good but something like an updated Eye of the Beholder3 or Might and Magic: Xeen with the turn-based combat and 1stperson view would be nice.
FH
Dragons are like any other spiffy shiny - used sparingly, it enhances the experience. Too much spiffy shiny and you get blinded. I have been very very consciously limiting the usage of certain "big" elements, like dragons, because any thing can become old if you use it too much.
X12: Lost Caverns of HemorrhoideusSmokin' what? Oh, I get it. Its like slang. Like your desire for your posterior to be crammed with adventures. You don't really want that, its just a phrase. OK. I see.
FH (just messin with ya)
I guess that's better than H1: Bloodstone Pass.
Otherwise, I agree with what Lilith said.
they released a dragon heavy alternative fantasy campaign (Darksun, i.e. Eberron)
Ga ba wha? When dark Sun was released, there was a single dragon in the entire setting. And while the major villains aspired to dragonhood, the PCs would have to be epic to fight them.
Also, while Eberron does have dragonshards and dragonmarks, actual, bona fida dragons are a continent away. Dragon encounters are rare in the campaigh setting.
Now DRAGONlance...
Ewww. Does that mean dragons are the new drow? How unfashionable I must be.
Nah, I'm with ya sexi. Spread too thin, and all over everything, they get a bit watered down and lose their glory. That's just how this mind groks it.
I agree completely. No mor edragon stuff for me unless it pertains to Kobolds. I basically don't allow any class or race to be related to Dragons in my homebrew with two minor exceptions. A small taste is good but when you can't turn around without bumping into a dragon or dragon spawn they just loose their lustre. At this point their in danger of ceasing to be the new Drow and becoming the new Orc.
Ga ba wha? When dark Sun was released, there was a single dragon in the entire setting. And while the major villains aspired to dragonhood, the PCs would have to be epic to fight them.
they released a dragon heavy alternative fantasy campaign (Darksun, i.e. Eberron)
Thats true. Darksun was actually Dragon light. The only dragon in the entire setting was basically a God Like creature who rarely turned up and when it did you fled into the desert and hoped like heck it did not bother with your worthless existence.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Thats true. Darksun was actually Dragon light. The only dragon in the entire setting was basically a God Like creature who rarely turned up and when it did you fled into the desert and hoped like heck it did not bother with your worthless existence.Ga ba wha? When dark Sun was released, there was a single dragon in the entire setting. And while the major villains aspired to dragonhood, the PCs would have to be epic to fight them.
they released a dragon heavy alternative fantasy campaign (Darksun, i.e. Eberron)
To be fair, the rulers of the city states were the Dragon Kings, even if they weren't technically true dragons.
It's probably cyclical. I'm chewing on this theory that 3e is following the same basic pattern as 2e in terms of products. 2e began with the class books (i.e., the Complete X books), moved into racial books (i.e., Races of Foo), and then petered out with the various option books (i.e., PHB II and DMG II). Along the way, they released a dragon heavy alternative fantasy campaign (Darksun, i.e. Eberron) and a lot of other crap. The 3e material tends to be of better quality, but it's basically the same cycle.Anyway, the dragon saturation point hit in 2e when they finally went all out and released a campaign setting where you could play as dragons. I'm hoping we are reaching that point soon. I am sick to death with dragons, including dragon abilities, dragon themed monsters, and Eberron's over-dragonization.
The above is all opinion and rambling, and should not be mistaken for actual thought and analysis. I realize the 2e=3e cycle theory is full of holes and paper thin, but I like it, so I'm going to pretend like it works.
Everything is cyclical, so you're right even without having exactitude.
There are two basic types of dragons: the mythic euro-style dragons and the modern asian-style dragons. The first kind are basically just scary animals; they often don't even fly (Beowulf's dragon, Merlin's dueling dragons). The second kind are more like scary supernatural powers--intelligent (often more so than humanity) and with motivation to do more than lie on their treasure piles. Obviously, d&d has a bit more of one type than the other; it just follows that the symbol of all that is grand and powerful and awesome in d&d will be paid a lot of attention, and that many PCs will want to emulate and even play these creatures. Whether for good or ill, there will always be dragon splatbooks and gamers who want to use them.
Tequila S I agree. And for those that want them I understand. I won't buy those books or pay ayyention to them. I was just scared to death that WOTC will pollute everything they make with dragon mania and not produce anything I can use for a year.
I especially appretiated the jump they did with sorcerers. It went from 3.5 PHB- some sorcerers claim to be sired by dragons, and some of them may be right due to the magical natures of dragons.
Then the Draconic heritage feats show up instead of a vauge reference to dragons half the sorcerers were covered in scales and breathing fire.
Yeah, there is now too much dragon stuff in D&D (sweet entropy I never thought I'd say/type that) what with that new Magic of the Dragon or somesuch book coming out and all of the spawn of tiamat in the new monster manual. Dragon Shaman was good for a dragon based base class (and helluva fun), the dragon specific spells made sense, the dragon heritage feats coexist with the celestial/fiendish hertige feats and the prestige classes are useful for the most part. But the new stuff? Even I'll admit that wizards is pushing it (and I'm the sort to buy something solely because it has a dragon on it).
I think it's possible to manage if you go by the idea that you don't have to use everything in a campaign, pluss I think most of the dragon stuff is supposed to be relatively rare in campaign worlds. But still, the amount of dragon based supplements is verging on the absurd now.
Thats not going to stop me from buying supplements just because they have the word dragon in the title though. Because I'm just a big sucker for anything scaly, flying and able to breathe fire, y'know?
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
|
Yes there is a ton of Dragon based stuff pouring out of WotC right now, but I look at it a hair differently. I don't use most of the Dragon supplements in my campaign right now. However, when I get around to dropping a major draconic antagonist on the party they won't know what it can do...because all of the products offer a host of really scary options. Foreshadowed correctly the PCs will be VERY uncomfortable and scrambling to survive.
If used well all of those supplents can make a dragon encounter the stuff of legends again.
The latest is "Dragon Magic" from WotC. I may have to get it, as one of the characters in my campaign is a half-dragon.
The interesting thing to note about the Dragon Magic book is that it doesn't seem to be limited to magic, per se, but includes soulmelds and psionic powers as well. That was the more appealing part to me, the fact that they're including support from the non-core books they've released. Here's the blurb from WotC:
This D&D supplement presents an unprecedented variety of new options for your character, including new prestige classes, feats, spells, psionic powers, invocations, soulmelds, magic items, companion spirits, and alternative class features, each one drawing on some element of draconic might. It presents a new standard class, the dragonfire adept, who combines a potent breath weapon with various magical invocations. It reveals many new ways to wield the magic of dragons, including draconic auras, dragonpacts, and draconic racial variants. For the DM, this book also provides dragon-themed adventure seeds and campaign ideas, magical locations to explore, and new options for making dragons more powerful and exciting.
Farewelltokings actually opened my eyes a while back by comparing D&D to any hobbies a person has.
Golf-$400+ for a good set of clubs, +green fees, balls, shoes, etc...
Camping/Backpacking-Backpacks, tents, mess kits, proper attire, water purification devices, etc....
Going to the movies-$7-10 a ticket, $15 for food(you know you want the snowcaps too), and gas . $25 dollars+ for 2 hours of entertainment.D&D- I spend around $600-800 a year on D&D stuff. If you game 1 time a week for 4 hrs at a time it figures out to be $3-4 an hour. Pretty good return on investment
Thanks, FH...I use the above listed argument whenever people I know give me grief about buying another D&D related product.
However, I have no intention of buying any of the dragon related extra stuff out there....figuring out the stat blocks is already hard enough.
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
I bought the Draconomicon a couple years ago and it is the only dragon resource I will ever have because it is the only dragon resource I will ever need. I have been playing D&D for 14 years and I've been DMing for 8 of those. In all that time, I have seen exactly 4 dragon fights (only 2 of which were in campaigns that I ran). If we expand that list to include more than just fights, then there have been 6 instances where dragons have been a major element or focus of a plotline. So, in 14 years of playing, 6 instances of dragon-related emphasis.
I bought the Draconomicon for the artwork. I <3 Lockwood.
I bought the Draconomicon for the artwork. I <3 Lockwood.
Lockwood is the bomb-diggity. :D You can get prints of the Draconomicon cover at his website, along with a smorgasbord of others. Very nice, high-quality prints, too!
The interesting thing to note about the Dragon Magic book is that it doesn't seem to be limited to magic, per se, but includes soulmelds and psionic powers as well.
HELL YEAH!
More incarnum? I'm so getting that book.
The interesting thing to note about the Dragon Magic book is that it doesn't seem to be limited to magic, per se, but includes soulmelds and psionic powers as well.HELL YEAH!
More incarnum? I'm so getting that book.
I'm with you - this will make me a very happy DM. More to make my players suffer!...er, um, more fun for everybody! :D
My custom campaign is choc full of dragon stuff... just no dragons (except 2 which you could say are like Dark Sun's God-like Dragon thing) You've got Draconites, Dragon Princes, Dragon Priests and even the odd Dragon Blooded Innkeeper :)
I like Dragons, they make my adventures feel like fantasy galore instead of a few elves running around (no offence to any elf lovers)
Later Days