ok , i dont know if this is cleared up in the new fiendish codex( waiting for mine to come thru the post)but in the zuggtmoy article it says that clerics worshipping her are possible. now using my best WOTC referance the boook of vile darkness it says that demon lords cannot grant spells to clerics unless they have divine rank 1 which zuggy appears notto have. do all demon lords now have the abilty to grant spells? i would normally just wait til the book arrives but im gonna use this in my game tommorrow nite and wanted to know for sure.
Creative Director
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The Fiendish Codex does indeed talk about this. Basically, a demon lord can act as a patron for a cleric. It doesn't actually grant spells to that cleric, but the Abyss itself can, using the demon lords as conduits. Clerics in the service of demon lords gain access to domains, just as other clerics who devote themselves to ideasl do, but some of their domains are unique to worshipers of the lords of the Abyss.
I see James answering questions around, so maybe he could answer this: Did some of the fiendish codex stuff come from the old greytalk mailing list? I seem to recall someone doing outlines of the major demons/devils on that list in the late 90s, and some of this stuff seems familiar.
(It could be from something else, like Slayer lyircs, but I'm pretty sure I saw it there last)
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Creative Director
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I see James answering questions around, so maybe he could answer this: Did some of the fiendish codex stuff come from the old greytalk mailing list? I seem to recall someone doing outlines of the major demons/devils on that list in the late 90s, and some of this stuff seems familiar.
(It could be from something else, like Slayer lyircs, but I'm pretty sure I saw it there last)
Erik would be able to answer this more clearly, but it wouldn't surprise me if some of the stuff in the Fiendish Codex was from the Greytalk mailing list. There's an AWFUL lot of nostalgia and 1st Edition easter eggs lurking in FC 1.
thanks for that james. my group now has to face a cleric of zuggy tonite. yay. im glad that this has now been addressed as i really wanted to add more demon lords to my campaign.
Erik would be able to answer this more clearly, but it wouldn't surprise me if some of the stuff in the Fiendish Codex was from the Greytalk mailing list. There's an AWFUL lot of nostalgia and 1st Edition easter eggs lurking in FC 1.
that would be neat to know. :)
I often think that a demon lord, when ruling an entire layer of the Abyss, has "virtual" divine ranks, thus allowing it to grant spells to followers. Thus Demogorgon on his home layer has all the powers of a deity, but loses them elsewhere.
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The Fiendish Codex does indeed talk about this. Basically, a demon lord can act as a patron for a cleric. It doesn't actually grant spells to that cleric, but the Abyss itself can, using the demon lords as conduits. Clerics in the service of demon lords gain access to domains, just as other clerics who devote themselves to ideals do, but some of their domains are unique to worshipers of the lords of the Abyss.
Could the same be said for the more traditional deities? (ie Pelor does not grant spells, but acts as a conduit for Celestia?).
I don't like clerics cherry-picking their domains as they see fit (Hmmm, let's see, no, I can cast all those domain spells already...what gives me more options...Ahah! Magic! I can cast identify for free! That's gonna save some cash....Travel! lots of teleport spells!...Now, how to justify them both...).
A cleric who picks a vague 'concept' or 'ideal' to follow, is losing a lot of flavour from his/her background, and makes a DM's job a lot harder when trying to set plot hooks, or adjudicate appropriate PC behaviour. It can be seen as a meta-gaming way of getting the same 'bang for your buck' as a traditional deity-following cleric, while avoiding any troublesome restrictions that might cramp the player's style.
In the case of evil clerics, that is even more pronounced. If a cleric can just pick 'Chaos/Law' and 'Evil' domains, and do what he likes, then why in (The Nine) Hell(s) would anyone choose a fiendish patron, who will effectively enslave them and make unreasonable demands?
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Creative Director
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I agree that a cleric who doesn't follow a specific deity and just picks the domains he wants is boring and unimaginative, but I don't think it's necessarily "broken." There's enough deities out there that a player who digs deep enough will probably be able to find a combo he likes anyway.
And as for demon lords, they do indeed limit the number of domains a cleric who worships them can choose from, just as if they were deities. In fact, from a game rules viewpoint AND from an in character viewpoint, there's really no difference at all between a cleric who gets his spells from a deity and one who gets them from worshiping a demon lord.