Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Here's my list based on my limited understanding of Eberron:
Better
1. The Planes: The planes in Eberron are like planets, coming into and out of alignment with the prime. It's an interesting and dynamic mechanic as compared to the Great Wheel and all its weirdness and related legacy isssues. The concept of manifest zones is also a good way to inject some magic into a location without having to explain who/why it was created.
2. Clerics/Gods: Eberrons focus on churches rather than gods provides a greater depth of moral ambiguity than the core rules allow. Eberron churches can have traitors and heretics who still receive spells. The uncoupling of gods from clerical magic also takes the gods out of the picture as potential active participants in the campaign setting.
3. NPC Levels: Eberron gets a lot of flack for being high magic, but it's NPC's are scaled down more than the core rules. While it's nice to have some high level NPC's, it's also nice to feel like your characters are heroes at the mid levels.
4. Dragonmarked House Mechanics: My tolerance for all things dragon is close to 0, and the word dragonmarked makes my skin crawl. That being said, the dragonmarked mechanic of taking feats to get small spell like abilities is a cool idea to give any character low level magic abilities. Tying these abilities into houses is a good structure for nobility/guilds in a D&D world.
5. Feat Mechanics: The feats in Eberron are generally built in chains and do a good job of building on each other, particularly the shaper and warforged feats which become more powerful the more that you acquire.
Worse
1. Takasi.
2. Non-Warforged Races: Even though I like the shaper feat mechanics, I hate the race. Not only that, I can never remember which race is the doppleganger race and which race is the animal shape shifter race. With the exception of the Warforged, the non-core Eberron races are dogs.
3. Lightning Rails: For gods sake, if you're going to have railroads, call them railroads. I can't say I would like them if they had a better flavor, but it would be a start.
4. High Magic: I know, I know, I said that Eberron gets a lot of flack for being high magic, but there's a distinction between high level and high magic. 1e and 2e were a lot closer to the Conan level of magic, and Eberron is the farthest I would like to see the pendulum swing. If the Eberron level of magic were to be brought to the core rules, it would be a great dissapointment.
5. Drow Belong Underground: Not trapsing around jungles.
6. Dragonshards: See above regarding the word dragon. Not only that, magical crystals are as lazy and uncreative as energy blasts in comic books.
7. Creation Mythology: All creation mythologies in games are tolerable at best, but Eberron's dragon thing is particularly lame.
That's my non-exclusive, entirely subjective, based in no way on objective provable facts opinion. Feel free to disagree.
A couple of points with which I disagree.
* If Lightning rails equal railroads, then skycoaches equal taxi cabs and airships equal airplanes or zeppelins.
* It's not "high-magic," it's "mass magic." A distinction without a difference in some respects. NPCs aren't running around raising dead or resurrecting people.
* Who says drow belong underground? Convention? Isn't the point of Eberron to break convention?
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
* If Lightning rails equal railroads, then skycoaches equal taxi cabs and airships equal airplanes or zeppelins.
My point, to the extent I have one, is that the name "lightning rails" is lame. Now that you mention it though, skycoaches are pretty lame too. Airships have a decent amount of precedent in fantasy settings, and I am generally more accepting of them.
* It's not "high-magic," it's "mass magic." A distinction without a difference in some respects. NPCs aren't running around raising dead or resurrecting people.
I believe that, although I did not use your terminology, I made that distinction above, and in fact, stated that not having a lot of high level NPC's was an aspect I liked.
* Who says drow belong underground? Convention? Isn't the point of Eberron to break convention?
Breaking conventions for the sake of having them broken is not a worthwhile endeavor in my book. The items I like in Eberron are those in which the assumptions of the core rules are challenged in an interesting way. The underdark is one of the cooler aspects of the core rules. The drow are an integral element of the underdark flavor. Having them in the jungle also creates a hurdle in translating drow based adventures from and to Eberron. Obviously, your mileage may vary, but yes, I think drow belong underground.
Director of Narrative
|
Breaking conventions for the sake of having them broken is not a worthwhile endeavor in my book. The items I like in Eberron are those in which the assumptions of the core rules are challenged in an interesting way. The underdark is one of the cooler aspects of the core rules. The drow are an integral element of the underdark flavor. Having them in the jungle also creates a hurdle in translating drow based adventures from and to Eberron. Obviously, your mileage may vary, but yes, I think drow belong underground.
* Who says drow belong underground? Convention? Isn't the point of Eberron to break convention?
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/dnd/general/placeYourRantHere&page =6#81624
* If Lightning rails equal railroads, then skycoaches equal taxi cabs and airships equal airplanes or zeppelins.
Are you saying they don't? 'Cause that's exactly how I see 'em!
Sebastian: I agree with you about the planes (although I dislike Khyber and the fact that most Outsiders have to be changed to natives, etc.), the gods, and the non-warforged races. I will also add that the warforged, while an extremely cool concept, are overpowered for their LA, but that's my only real gripe with them.
I don't really agree about the lack of high-level NPCs. It's a nice idea, but it doesn't work very well in actual practice, especially given the rate at which most 3e PCs advance. I suppose it's a matter of personal taste, but I don't like for my PCs to be that special compared to NPCs.
Amaril has already made the point that Eberron isn't actually "high magic." It's a subtle distinction, but an important one: low-level magic is extremely common in Eberron, but high-level magic is rare. Personally, I like that.
Lastly, the drow. I'm glad Eberron breaks conventions. Yet another bunch of underdark-dwelling drow is just a big yawn-fest to me. Much more interesting to take them out of the ground and stick them in the jungle.
Well, I'm an Eberron fan (and classic Greyhawk, I like to mix it up for variety), but about the Drow belong underground point:
1. I agree with you about the Drow and Underdark being iconic elements of DnD.
2. That being said, my image of the Drow in Eberron IS that they live in the darkness, albeit not always underground. The rendition of Xen'drik in my campaigns is a jungle with mega flora and fauna, where the light of the sun rarely pierces its many layers of canopy down to the ground. Plus, while the drow don't live in Khyber (the Eberron version of the Underdark) exclusively, they do dwell there, as well as in the jungle and the massive giant ruins that have been covered in thousands of years worth of jungle growth.
So I'm okay with Drow not exclusively dwelling underground, because in my campaigns at least, they dwell in darkness regardless of the whether its stone or jungle above them at the moment.
---
All that being said, my conception of Xen'drik might be reinforced or shattered when the new source book comes out, but that is how I see it in the campaigns I normally run.
I'd toss the following out there as points that I like about Eberron that haven't been listed:
1. Intrigue/Politics: IMHO, Eberron does a great job with this dynamic, given all the factions and organizations.
2. The "Pulp" feel. Its something that is harder to pull off in a "normal" campaign.
3. The "Higher EL but fewer Fights". Not that you couldn't do this in any campaign, but fewer battles that are more challenging is written into the campaign setting as an integral element. Its something that I've been doing in my own campaigns for years, but its nice that it is in there as written.
4. Its not Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Mystara, the Realms, etc. Nor is it just another fantasy setting with different names for the same concepts. Now to be clear, I love classic Greyhawk, I have a whole bookshelf of FR stuff going back to the orginal box set, ditto for Dragonlance.
But Eberron has something going for it in my mind, namely that while its DnD, its intentionally not "standard" DnD or fantasy. And while I'm hardly the longest playing person here on the boards, I've had almost 20 years of playing DnD, and I appreciate the subtle (and not so subtle) twists and tweaks of convention that render playing in Eberron as a different experience from playing in campaign settings that I've played in for more than a decade.
Newer isn't necessarily better, but in this case I like the "freshness" of Eberron. Of course, I liked Spelljammer for the same reasons, and we all know that turned out well, lol.
5. The lack of High Level GOOD NPCs. Just to make the point that while there are many high level (or high CR anyways) NPCs out there, they are there in the setting. They just are the super-villains instead of the super-heroes.
6. The cohesiveness of Eberron. Now this is more of measure of how new Eberron is compared to other settings, but I like the style and tone of the ECS, and for the main part it has been carried through into all the sourcebooks and web material. Not always, there have been notable exceptions, but in general the style and tone are consistent with the setting, and you don't have contradictions from one sourcebook to the next.
This is a distinct contrast to my FR collections, which when it grows to become a whole bookcase of boxed sets, hardcover novels, sourcebooks and adventures... well, its harder to keep that all in line.
This point is also the thing that I like about Eberron that I most expect to lose. Its a natural consequence as the setting grows, and WOTC needs to put out more sourcebooks to make money every year. Afterall, this is more a function of the newness of the line rather than anything else. Also, since Eberron has only been around since 3.5, there isn't any urge (yet) to retcon the setting to make it more in line with the current editions. (Sorcerors anyone?)
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
The cohesiveness of Eberron. Now this is more of measure of how new Eberron is compared to other settings, but I like the style and tone of the ECS, and for the main part it has been carried through into all the sourcebooks and web material. Not always, there have been notable exceptions, but in general the style and tone are consistent with the setting, and you don't have contradictions from one sourcebook to the next.
I'm curious about this one - what are the notable exceptions?
The cohesiveness of Eberron. Now this is more of measure of how new Eberron is compared to other settings, but I like the style and tone of the ECS, and for the main part it has been carried through into all the sourcebooks and web material. Not always, there have been notable exceptions, but in general the style and tone are consistent with the setting, and you don't have contradictions from one sourcebook to the next.I'm curious about this one - what are the notable exceptions?
Well, if you went to the Eberron boards on WOTC, you could find many flame-ridden rants, but suffice it to say that part of the conception of Warforged as "Danger Will Robinson" emotionless robot-clones stems from this issue. If you have 20 minutes, check out the differences between the Warforged section of Races of Eberron (IMHO, the worse book for this) and the actual campaign setting/the Dragonshard web articles by Keith Baker, the original creator of Eberron.
All three are "official canon", being either sourcebooks or web articles published by WOTC. But given that they are written by different authors, and that I'm pretty sure Races of Eberron was in overlapping development with the actual Campaign Setting book... and you get two wildly differernt views of Warforged.
There are other examples, but suffice it to say that they are either similiar to the warforged example (ie. artificers and different authors having incompatible views of how infusions work) or they take the Eberron-twists on convention, and say "Oh, but the standard DnD/classic high fantasy elements are there as well, but we just didn't mention them in the original Campaign Setting." Which IMHO, is just plain stupid, because if they try to vanilla coat Eberron into a standard fantasy mold retroactively, they both lose the original feel of the setting, as well as risk turning off the people who liked Eberron in the first place for its twists. And if it ends up being an FR clone, then whats the point of Eberron if I could be playing in FR instead?
PS. I forgot a couple points that I did like about Eberron, and one that I disliked.
Good #1: The style of Eberron adventures, because you can just pull off some things that are cool, but you couldn't do in a "normal" campaign. See Nicholas Logue's Chimes at Midnight from earlier this year in Dungeon for a stellar example of this.
Good #2: Monsters as races. There are actually good RP reasons/backstory if you wanted to play a kobold, orc, goblinoid or gnoll (among others) in Eberron.
Good #3: The Cthulu-esque feel already written into the world. Again, not like you couldn't do this in any setting or adventure (The Styes/King in Yellow) but its written in there already as a part of the setting.
Bad #1: The fanatics for and against Eberron. I don't usually post on threads about Eberron, because of the fantatics on both sides. I like the setting, but I don't feel the need to convert everyone else into Eberron players, nor do I feel the need to make everything Eberron. I also don't feel the need to stereotype or tear down Eberron because it might "threaten" my favorite setting.
|
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
|
Here's my list based on my limited understanding of Eberron:
Better
1. The Planes: The planes in Eberron are like planets, coming into and out of alignment with the prime. It's an interesting and dynamic mechanic as compared to the Great Wheel and all its weirdness and related legacy isssues.
Meh.
2. Clerics/Gods: Eberrons focus on churches rather than gods provides a greater depth of moral ambiguity than the core rules allow. Eberron churches can have traitors and heretics who still receive spells. The uncoupling of gods from clerical magic also takes the gods out of the picture as potential active participants in the campaign setting.
Quadruple meh. This is one of my least favorite "innovations" related to this campaign setting.
3. NPC Levels: Eberron gets a lot of flack for being high magic, but it's NPC's are scaled down more than the core rules. While it's nice to have some high level NPC's, it's also nice to feel like your characters are heroes at the mid levels.
Why does the existance of high-level characters make mid-level characters any less heroic? There was an era in early FR products where Elminster appeared to save the day all the time, but that era has passed. "Solving" for this problem by making a world where no one is capable of casting important spells like resurrection seems like a massive overreaction to a largely imagined problem.
But that's just my take.
--Erik
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Thanks for the summary. I wasn't aware of the issue. I am interested in Eberron, but can't justify buying the books because I probably won't use the setting. However, I like a lot of the ideas though, and many are think are worthy of being integrated into the core rules (the planar style, the high EL encounters that you mentioned, etc).
Bad #1: The fanatics for and against Eberron. I don't usually post on threads about Eberron, because of the fantatics on both sides. I like the setting, but I don't feel the need to convert everyone else into Eberron players, nor do I feel the need to make everything Eberron.
I'm glad you posted. Fanatics are on my list of bad things also.
Thanks for the summary. I wasn't aware of the issue. I am interested in Eberron, but can't justify buying the books because I probably won't use the setting. However, I like a lot of the ideas though, and many are think are worthy of being integrated into the core rules (the planar style, the high EL encounters that you mentioned, etc).
Bad #1: The fanatics for and against Eberron. I don't usually post on threads about Eberron, because of the fantatics on both sides. I like the setting, but I don't feel the need to convert everyone else into Eberron players, nor do I feel the need to make everything Eberron.I'm glad you posted. Fanatics is on my list of bad things also.
LOL
Thats why I really, really respect Erik. I appreciate that he doesn't have a problem laying out his opinions. And the bit about high level NPCs making mid level NPCs less important never made much sense to me either.
To look at at different genre, does the fact that Superman exists mean that Robin or Nightwing's adventures don't mean anything? Or for that matter, because there is a Justice League, does that mean the Teen Titans aren't heroic? Heck, there was a VERY long time when the Titans were a lot more popular than the Leauge . . .
|
And I, too, live in Dallas, as does Chuck Norris. Still, that doesn't make me call Chuck Norris up (20th level monk) whenever some ninja attack me. I just open up a canful on them.
Seriously, though, like every time there's a JLA adventure and Batman and Green Arrow have to deal with the problem, they have a back story splaining why Superman isn't around...how about from now on, in the AP's, could we have a ready story for why Mordenkainen and Elminster don't just show up and save the world for us? Like they're across the galaxy fighting Darkseid at the moment?
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Meh.
1. The Planes: The planes in Eberron are like planets, coming into and out of alignment with the prime. It's an interesting and dynamic mechanic as compared to the Great Wheel and all its weirdness and related legacy isssues.
Not your thing, eh? I like the fact that it provides a convenient excuse for planar activity. The Great Wheel is seriously old and busted. There are good concepts (mostly in the lower planes, mechanus, and limbo), but it's not very user or campaign friendly.
2. Clerics/Gods: Eberrons focus on churches rather than gods provides a greater depth of moral ambiguity than the core rules allow. Eberron churches can have traitors and heretics who still receive spells. The uncoupling of gods from clerical magic also takes the gods out of the picture as potential active participants in the campaign setting.Quadruple meh. This is one of my least favorite "innovations" related to this campaign setting.
But it is a better set up than the core rules. Maybe that's just my axe, but I find the dieties of D&D to be one of the most tedious aspects of the game.
Why does the existance of high-level characters make mid-level characters any less heroic? There was an era in early FR products where Elminster appeared to save the day all the time, but that era has passed. "Solving" for this problem by making a world where no one is capable of casting important spells like resurrection seems like a massive overreaction to a largely imagined problem.
Depends on the number and frequency of high level characters. If high level NPCs are extremely frequent, you wonder why they don't do more. And feeling less special is a completely normal reaction. You may have the best voice out of your pool of friends, but if every day you sang with an opera company, you might doubt your talent.
But that's just my take.
He says as if his opinion does not sail ships and carry great weight among the readers of these boards.
How about you spill the beans and tell us what you do/don't like about Eberron that I failed to list (to the extent you can do so without causing a flood of proposals involving those elements).
Elminster and Mordenkainen versus Darkseid, eh? Does Darkseid get Kalibak on his side?
Actually, in several of the last "major" Realms events, Elminster has been explained away. Elminster in Hell shows how they shunted him off for the Return of the Archwizards storyline, and "Tears so White" in the Realms of Elves anthology shows what happened during the The Last Mythal storyline.
But honestly, I always figured with extra dimensional spellcasters, the phaerimm, the malaugrym, Larloch and his liches, dragons, archfiends, demon princes, etc., it isn't strickly nessessary to always explain why Elminster doesn't interevene, but more likely to explain how he would have time TO intervene.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Does the fact that the captain of the guard is 5th level mean there is nothing heroic for your 2nd level party to do?
If so, I fear we've all been wasting a lot of time with this Dungeons & Dragons business.
--Erik
No, but if joe peon, generic flunky guardsman, and his 50 friends that make up the town guard are all 5th level, my 2nd level party is going to feel pretty gimpy.
Are the other settings close to that scenario? No, and I'm not saying that. Should there not be any NPC's over 10th level? No, and I'm not saying that either. All I am saying is that I prefer high level NPC's to be less common than they are in the core rules. I also prefer a lower magic level than in the core rules, but Eberron definitely doesn't do that.
* If Lightning rails equal railroads, then skycoaches equal taxi cabs and airships equal airplanes or zeppelins.Are you saying they don't? 'Cause that's exactly how I see 'em!
Nope, that's exactly how I see them, too. My point is that the name is just flavor text. If you don't like "lightning rails" then call it something else. Personally, I think lightning rails works fine. It's a set of rails created with lightning arcs. *shrug*
I think the most of the problems people have with Eberron can be fixed with small tweaks. Want drow to dwell underground? What's stopping you? I agree with Vegepygmy; underground drow is just boring. I can get that with Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms. The point of Eberron is to have something different.
* Who says drow belong underground? Convention? Isn't the point of Eberron to break convention?That depends. Is it being marketed as the baseline Dungeons & Dragons experience?
--Erik
Erik, I'm not following you on this one. Is "it" referring to the convention or the campaign setting? If it's referring to the campaign setting, my opinion is that it is not the baseline D&D experience. From what I observe, Eberron is being marketed as an exotic, non-traditional medieval fantasy, pulp-noir setting, and that's the impression I've had since I first saw the Across Eberron brochure. If you're referring to the convention, then one who is interested in the baseline D&D experience shouldn't look to Eberron and should look for a setting that has subterranean drow.
I believe that, although I did not use your terminology, I made that distinction above, and in fact, stated that not having a lot of high level NPC's was an aspect I liked.
* It's not "high-magic," it's "mass magic." A distinction without a difference in some respects. NPCs aren't running around raising dead or resurrecting people.
Apologies, I didn't quite see your distinction between high-level and mass magic. The statement about NPCs was to reinforce the idea that it wasn't "high-level" magic.
For me, the biggest plus is that Eberron has been the greatest source of optional rules and materials...warforged, sky ships, Action Points, and especially the Artificer class. I have gotten more ideas out of Eberron than I have ever with Unearthed Arcana or any other supplement for my own and FOR campaigns
And the biggest minus is that there is supposed to be a place for every monster and race in all of D&D in the Eberron world, no matter how fetched, with just a little bit of adjustment (read the Players Guide for allot of those examples)...all that smacks of to me is more "crunch" to sell more books...not due to any real creativity
And though I understand people's dislike of a high-magic campaign (IMO I think the 3rd Ed. rules are too loose and free with magic and pseudo magic E.G. Thayan Wallmarts!) but what I don't understand is why people don't understand the trains, planes, phones (etc.) and the general mass-production of magic.
If you believe in "fantasy realism" and you apply the very true maxim "necessity is the mother of invention" then it is very logical to think that in a “world of magic” magic would be treated more like a resource and magic would be utilized to create items and effects to make life easier...portal fed plumbing, magical air conditioning and Wells Fargo catalogs have been around for decades...
Eberron is just a world not where there is too much magic, but that the "mysticism" of magic has been removed for society (unlike Krynn or Oerth) or has not been advanced into a true technology (beyond the level of Toril) and that in civilized society
Kalin
I think the most of the problems people have with Eberron can be fixed with small tweaks. Want drow to dwell underground? What's stopping you?
Well if you don't like Eberron why tweak it? Just play something else....like Greyhawk. I think the reason I don't like Eberron is because if I am going to bother running/playing a pulp noir style of game with "mass magic", then why not D20 Modern or White Wolf?
Perhaps my idea of D&D is just too narrow for Eberron.
That depends. Is it being marketed as the baseline Dungeons & Dragons experience?
The baseline is whatever the license holder says it is. D&D has changed a LOT from its roots and in many cases for the better.
With specific regard to underground dark elves, Eberron has the umbragen. They may also have traditional spider worshipping drow, but if so they're very mysterious (which is even more faithful to classic D&D) and not the constant source product inspiration as they are in the Realms.
Why does the existance of high-level characters make mid-level characters any less heroic?
Greyhawk and FR have baggage. They come from an era where 1-100 lvl play was more common and material for higher level play was available.
Today there is almost no support from WotC for epic level play. There certainly isn't any in Dungeon. It's generally assumed that a campaign will end at 20th level with characters retiring and, for the most part, not going up any higher in level.
This being the case, it's generally impossible to become the gretest hero of the world when you have legacy characters from previous editions converted to 30th, 40th, 50th or higher. Some campaigns want their PCs to be the greatest heroes in the world. You can do this with RAW Eberron but you cannot do this with RAW Greyhawk or FR.
The world of Eberron has been designed from the ground up to take into consideration the material available for building a d20 campaign, whereas Greyhawk and FR have a connection (for better or worse) to older systems and ideas.
The class lvl of NPCs makes a difference in how powerful low level magic is. How easy is it to put town guards to sleep? Or kill them with fireballs? If it is difficult to do (5th-10th lvl PC classed guards) then spellcasters are marginalized. If it is very easy (1st-4th lvl NPC classed guards) then wizards (good and evil) ARE more important. They can do things that the most of the town cannot. The same goes for any PC. The abilities of NPCs are a guideline for the power of PCs, even at lower levels. If it's easier to get an NPC that's able to do the same thing (perhaps even better) then the setting erodes the value of a PC.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Typical Takasi garbage.
Just want to chime in and say that in the spirit of having a discussion about Eberron which actually involves an exchange of information and ideas, can we all agree right now not to respond to Takasi.
Yeah, I know, I too want to rip into him for his usual nonsense about the license-holder, but let's just pretend like he didn't post. We will all be happier for it.
What's important is not that your characters are the highest level in the setting, but that there isn't any "Superman" character to take away their glory.
Greyhawk's Circle of Eight might be each level 17 and above, but they don't know everything that's going on, don't always care about it even if they do know, and generally only intervene to keep the balance just enough that no one faction manages to wipe out the entire Flaeness. Mordenkainen isn't Superman because if a dragon attacks a city he'll probably let it happen - it's not his problem.
In other words, Mordenkainen doesn't really overshadow your player characters because he's not a hero.
|
Why does the existance of high-level characters make mid-level characters any less heroic? There was an era in early FR products where Elminster appeared to save the day all the time, but that era has passed. "Solving" for this problem by making a world where no one is capable of casting important spells like resurrection seems like a massive overreaction to a largely imagined problem.
The problem seemed to come to our group when they would reach 14th level or higher -- there would be some kind of situation where the "fate of the realms" was in jeopardy (or something like that) and someone would comment "Where is Elminster when all this has been going on?". While that era may have passed in the novels (and to a lesser degree the adventures) everyone seems to know that he will save the day if the PCs can't (or don't want to).
I feel like the problem has as much or more to do with the fact that there are so many named "heroes" of the realms that everyone seems to know about. I think that if I were Elminster, I would make a huge announcement to the realms and say -- "That's it!! I am leaving you all to your fates now! If you can't take care of yourselves, then that is just too bad! I hope to never see your whining helpless butts ever again!" (or something like that). Mostly just to eliminate the possiblity of him saving the day.
Just because that era may have passed in the novels and other items of interest doesn't mean it has passed from the players' minds.
I agree with your "Solving for this problem" statement. I just think that the "imagined problem" has much more to do with the history and named characters rather than the power levels of said characters. If Eberron had 500 20th level characters that no one knew much/anything about, I don't feel that it would be an issue. If Eberron had 5 20th level characters that had "saved the world" on a number of occasions, then people would continue to look to them to "save the day" the next time a big disaster came up.
Anyway, that is just my take -- it's not the world (per se) but how the world is set up or grows.
For what it's worth.
On the original topic of things Eberron does better and worse, there are a couple of things I like about it. Here are the ones I can remember off the top of my head.
- Outsiders are actually immortal. Not "immortal until slain", but "if they're slain, either they return eventually or another is born to take its place". I don't know why but this just seems right.
- Warforged provide the perfect race for munchkins and newbies, who don't want to bother roleplaying a character's personality.
There are a few things I don't.
- I don't really "get" this pulp/noir thing. I googled it; looks like it's old adventure fiction and black-and-white crime detective movies. Those came and went before I was even born, how am I even meant to work out how to combine the two? Give me old-fashioned wizards and elves any day.
I don't really "get" this pulp/noir thing. I googled it; looks like its old adventure fiction and black-and-white crime detective movies. Those came and went before I was even born, how am I even meant to work out how to combine the two? Give me old-fashioned wizards and elves any day.
The best way to describe it is :
"pulp" refers to the old pulp magazines in the early 20th century, which were more like short story anthologies in magazine form than a true magazine (like readers digest). one of the big draws of "pulp" stories were the swashbuckling-like adventure stories, like Allan Quartermain (King Solomon’s Mines), Tarzan, Flash Gordan, even Conan. They were stories where when things got "adventurous" they REALLY got adventurous, almost over the top...and the stories were usually over the top too, the villains were the worst type of villain and were usually out to destroy/conquer the world...it was almost like having multiple climaxes in the storyline...
the Indiana Jones movies are the best example of a "pulp" story...quiet story telling then sudden and intense action (listen to the background music to know when it's happening)
"noir" is also a style of story invented in the early 20th century, mostly similar to a crime or spy movie, where the "hero" (usually more of an anti-hero") is in danger, needs to do something, and can trust nobody...noir stories are also usually not happy endings, usually bittersweet, and often leave big holes in the storyline unfulfilled
most Alfred Hitchcock movies are noir movies, my favorite is Chinatown with Jack Nicholson
so "pulp-noir" is a dark, no-one-can-be-trusted movie with allot of over-the-top action filled sequences that the hero shouldn't really survive (that’s why the Action Points were invented, to reflect that)
They say that the movie Casablanca is the best pulp-noir movie there is, it IS in the top five movies ever (ever!) made but it is more noir than pulp IMO
hope that helps
Kalin
- I don't really "get" this pulp/noir thing. I googled it; looks like it's old adventure fiction and black-and-white crime detective movies. Those came and went before I was even born, how am I even meant to work out how to combine the two? Give me old-fashioned wizards and elves any day.
Pulp is high adventure. It was written for a mass audience. Think blockbuster movies. Think popcorn no brainers. Beer and pretzels games. Over the top, "I can't believe it!" action. Raiders of the Lost Ark is the perfect example.
Noir is dark and gritty where conspiracies are all around and it's very difficult to trust anyone.
Both are styles of running adventures. Eberron provides a world where both styles are possible. It also provides backdrops for more traditional epic stories.
IMO most tables are not run by great writers. Most DMs are amateur storytellers and have much more in common with dime store novel writers than Tolkien.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
- Outsiders are actually immortal. Not "immortal until slain", but "if they're slain, either they return eventually or another is born to take its place". I don't know why but this just seems right.
The core rules used to play it that way if I remember correctly. You had to slay an outsider on its home plane to really kill it. Otherwise, it just came back after some amount of time.
Both are styles of running adventures. Eberron provides a world where both styles are possible. It also provides backdrops for more traditional epic stories.
How are either of these not accomplished with ANY campaign setting? Magic and feats make just about anything possible.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Both are styles of running adventures. Eberron provides a world where both styles are possible. It also provides backdrops for more traditional epic stories.How are either of these not accomplished with ANY campaign setting? Magic and feats make just about anything possible.
NOOOOOO!!!!!!!
Turn back now. The path which you have charted is littered with the broken bodies of logical arguments and coherent thoughts. There are no answers, only questions and questionable assertions.
Let me summarize the response:
EBERRON RULEZ!1!!!!1!1!
Please, I beg of you, delete your response before it is too late.
I think the most of the problems people have with Eberron can be fixed with small tweaks. Want drow to dwell underground? What's stopping you?Well if you don't like Eberron why tweak it? Just play something else....like Greyhawk. I think the reason I don't like Eberron is because if I am going to bother running/playing a pulp noir style of game with "mass magic", then why not D20 Modern or White Wolf?
Perhaps my idea of D&D is just too narrow for Eberron.
You're missing the point and oversimplifying it. The statement isn't trying to solve a problem of disliking Eberron; it's about solving the problem of disliking a single aspect of Eberron. Disliking a single aspect is easy to correct with a simple tweak. If you don't like Eberron, then tweaking won't help to correct that problem.
The difference between d20 Modern and Eberron is that Eberron can (but doesn't necessarily) have what d20 Modern has while placing the campaign in a medieval setting. If you actually look at content outside of Sharn, there's still a lot of the traditional D&D elements such as saving a village from monsters raiding their livestock, or stopping an evil cult hiding in an underground dungeon in the mountains.
Both are styles of running adventures. Eberron provides a world where both styles are possible. It also provides backdrops for more traditional epic stories.How are either of these not accomplished with ANY campaign setting? Magic and feats make just about anything possible.
Allow me to clarify with a really good example of film noir, a tribute to film noir actually - Payback starring Mel Gibson. Even down to the narration, this film was written and produced specifically to pay tribute to and encapsulate that genre. The tough as nails criminal anti-hero out for revenge with a softspot for the "girl" that works as an escort and for whom he used to drive to work.
Eberron deliberately embeds the elements of pulp action and film noir into it's background and history. One has to work a bit to emulate the same feel in any other setting. It's hard to explain, but it just works more easily in Eberron.
To illustrate how fair I'm trying to be, I'm a huge fan of Greyhawk. I love this setting, and I love the unclear politics laced throughout the setting. I am currently running a campaign in Greyhawk but am bringing it to a close so that I can kickstart an Eberron campaign in a few months. Why? Because my players had a hard time grasping the setting of Greyhawk.
The players in my campaign are either new to D&D as a whole or new to Greyhawk as a setting. They like the generic approach, especially when dealing with WotC's "core setting" approach to their general supplements. However, there's not single resource for them to reference when trying to get a feel of what the setting entails. Secondly, if I move the party to another region for the next adventure, most recently Istivin for the three-part story arc, they have no idea about the significance certain aspects of that region/city in relation to the history of the campaign world. Lolth's attempt to absorb the city, the giant invasion, the drow responsible, etc. have no impact on their impression of the adventure. It's all just filler to them.
That's when I recognized a larger problem with Greyhawk. It's actually a setting littered with mini-settings that sometimes have no bearing on one another; they're disparate. It just seems that Greyhawk lacks a feeling of cohesion with it's history, especially when it comes to incorporating past 1e and 2e adventure modules as part of the history.
Eberron is very streamlined as a campaign setting. Already, my players see a drastic difference between it and Greyhawk. Having a single source of reference helps them, too. With Greyhawk, they always seemed to have a bit of difficulty grasping what the setting was about. With Eberron, it's laid out very clearly.
Please keep in mind, this is not to say that I think Eberron is better. I just find Eberron to be more convenient in many respects. I love Greyhawk. I love my poster map of the City of Greyhawk. I love my four-part poster map of the Flanaess. I love the Regional Feats of Oerth. But I hate the fact that there's not a 3.5 Player's Guide to Greyhawk like there is for Eberron. Like I said convenience, not just for me, but for my players as well.
Both are styles of running adventures. Eberron provides a world where both styles are possible. It also provides backdrops for more traditional epic stories.How are either of these not accomplished with ANY campaign setting? Magic and feats make just about anything possible.
You can run these styles in any campaign settings. Eberron specifically mentions these styles in their books, artwork and a few of their example adventures.
In addition, some of the game mechanics encourage this.
For pulp you have action points, dinosaurs, evil cultists, gadgets and lots of new feats and player options. In addition, there are elements of mass transportation and communication that allow players to get from one side of the world to the other quickly. This provides a wide variety of backdrops without micromanaging travel; the "red line" from movies like Indiana Jones.
For noir you have a lack of divine intervention in history, few if any alignment restrictions for race, class and abilities, a wide variety of powerful, world spanning organizations and a large number of very detailed yet unresolved mysteries that DMs are free to explain. Even though I know a lot about Eberron I can still play in another DM's campaign and have no idea who caused the Mournland in his world.
|
- I don't really "get" this pulp/noir thing. I googled it; looks like it's old adventure fiction and black-and-white crime detective movies. Those came and went before I was even born, how am I even meant to work out how to combine the two? Give me old-fashioned wizards and elves any day.
ROFL!!!!
Oh My God!Well, as someone who actuallly didn't have to google pulp/noir (as I look lovingly at my collection of novels in said style), I have to say that I can't really make the connection either.
If you want to play pulp, play pulp. There are several pretty good games out there that cover the genre. Wizards, elves and demons? Stick with something that looks like a fantasy game.
Wow, do I feel old, all of a sudden.
|
|
I think they have street lamps in eberron, for moody noir lighting, lighting that twists in the pit of your chest, so twisted you could make a pretzel out of that lighting.
And shadows, the shadows from the street lamps are black, like a rainy midnight in Xen'drik when all of a sudden she showed up.
"I need help," she said to me, flashing her dragon tatoo.
"I don't get involved wit' dames like you," I replied.
"What kind of dame is that," she replied.
"Da fleshy kind. I'm a war forged."
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As one of the DMs who like Eberron, I have to chime in here as well.
For the record: I am 35 years old (today on the 16th of June btw. ;) and doesn't had to look pulp/noir up either.
So to make it short...
I love:
- The History
- The Shades of Grey (getting away from Dualism makes a great opportunity for roleplaying)
- The Daelkyr
- That the gods stick to themsleves (mostly), not like in FR or partly in GH.
I don't like:
- The Lightning Rail
- Warforged
- The fact, that - and here Eberron differs, imo, greatly from the other settings - that everything is so entwined whith everything else that it is difficult to take away one thing without having a (as we say in germany) "rat-tail" of changes to consider.
What I mean with this? You can't just take away the Warforged, because they are a big part of Eberron history and the whole creation-forge-Merrix-d'Cannith-thing depends on them, as well as the Lord of the Blades.
Its hard to imagine Eberron without VOL.
And, it's even harder to incorporate the standard races into Eberron. What, you might think?! Well, the elves of Eberron are special, as well as the halflings. In other settings Correllon Larethian is knwon quite well, not matter if FR or GH.
In FR its so much easier to change a power group, a race, a city or whatever, because after all it is more generic than Eberron migth ever get - even if WotC talk of Eberron as THE ONE generic setting, where everything has a place... which is far easier to say than actually do it (without a lot of work on the DM side).
Just take the planes, for example...
Anyway, Eberron is a great and fantastic world to experience adventures in, and as long as I am having fun and my players as well, I will continue to use it.
--
There are a few changes I made though: (copied from a post I did in another thread:
Yes, I love the setting, even if I will not have the Lightning-Rail or all of the Dragonmarked Houses in my next Eberron campaign. After the Last War "my Warforged" just fell silent the moment Cyre was blown into oblivion! They just stopped walking, talking, fighting or doing whatver they did that moment. Now, everybody is thinking about what happened with those warforged and what they'll do if they start moving again...
Not having a L-Rail or elemental cards, Khorvaire is becoming bigger again and a trip to Xen'drik is like it should be, an
adventure itself, lasting a couple of months.
Those people who start researching what happened with the Warforged will one day become artificers in my campaign (that
means, as soon as one of my players wants to play one).
You see, it's my Eberron, and it sure is very different from someone elses...
What have people done with the immobile warforged? Are they being placed in a few areas with several of them per area? Are they being placed in several areas with only a few to an area? If they are hostile on reanimation then concentrating them would make for an army. Separating them widly would make it necessary to hunt them down individually or in small groups.
----------
Well, what's happening with the Warforged depends on the kingdom. Karrnath is secreting away all warforged they can/could find, in order to try to make an army of them. Where they are hidden, only Kaius and a handfull of his most trusted know.
Aundair and Breland are putting them away in units of not more than 5 warforged. They are magically bound and, if possible, taken apart.
Thrane just destroyed them, as they always thought them not natural.
And in Cyre, where probably most of the warforged fell silent, nobody knows where they are. Only a handful were found so far, and speculations arise, that one warforged kind of survived and tries to bring his kind "back to life". (This is my story around the Lord of the Blades - who's trying to find a way to "reboot" his warforged allies).
Of course, single warforged could be found all over the continent of Khrovaire and sometimes have a bird's nest on them, or moss, or whatever. But under all the things elements can do to a warforgeds material, the creature itself is still fine.
Travelers tell of such "warforged statues" who's eyes are following you on every step you take.
A lot of storys are abound.
As in Sharn are found only 12 warforged at all, the authorities ruled, that they should stay in place, in order to remind everyone of the horrors a new war would bring...
-----------
After playing a couple of sessions on Eberron, me and my players found the warforged annoying as well. That's why I came up with this idea.
When I start my new Eberron campaign (end of this year), I hope that this little twist adds some mystery and kind of puts the warforged away from the game without robbing Eberron itself of them.
Warforged (in my Eberron) are never known as "nice creatures". They are dark, unforgiving and known to show no mercy. Noone wants to have them come to life again!
So that was a hell of a post! Sorry for being so long, but I had to!
LOL!
I'd like to see the rest of this story.
I think they have street lamps in eberron, for moody noir lighting, lighting that twists in the pit of your chest, so twisted you could make a pretzel out of that lighting.
And shadows, the shadows from the street lamps are black, like a rainy midnight in Xen'drik when all of a sudden she showed up.
"I need help," she said to me, flashing her dragon tatoo.
"I don't get involved wit' dames like you," I replied.
"What kind of dame is that," she replied.
"Da fleshy kind. I'm a war forged."
|
|
I don't really "get" this pulp/noir thing. I googled it; looks like it's old adventure fiction and black-and-white crime detective movies. Those came and went before I was even born, how am I even meant to work out how to combine the two? Give me old-fashioned wizards and elves any day.
Others have discussed the meanings; I'll suggest a non-Eberron example: Glen Cook wrote a series of books about a private investigator by the name of Garrett that started with "Sweet Silver Blues". If you can find these (they're mostly out of print in the original versions but have been reprinted in omnibus editions), they should give you an idea.
YMMV, but I think they're excellent. (It helps if you like the PI genre.)
As to how well that atmosphere would work in an RPG, I'm a bit skeptical. One of the major tropes in noir is "one ordinary guy against a corrupt world", which competes a bit with the ensemble nature of most roleplaying. In this way it is similar to roleplaying westerns (though for westerns, substitute "cruel" for "corrupt").
|
|
Happy Birthday, Dryder.
Thanx ;)
I would have said it in German but the only sentence I can cobble together in that tongue is: "There is a dead bat in the ice cream."
I would love to hear that in german from you! But a dead BAT??? Where did you have this sentence from anyway... ;)
I think Eberron does some things well:
-little to no emphasis on alignment
-uncaring or absent gods.
-clerics that don't follow church ethos
-shifters and changelings
-new takes on dwarves, gnomes, elves, orcs and (hob)goblinsThe prevelance of magiv makes it easier to envision large cities and some aspects of industry. This makes it more believable that a middle class would exist.
As for its detractors:
-warforged (robots by another name)
-airships (airplanes)
-lightning rail (trains)
-dragonmarks
-a continent of dragons
-dragonshardsThese all seem to undercut the idea that it is a low-magic setting.
Oh, and this is how to bring my looooong post to a manageable length. Oh, how sweet it is to write in your own tongue...
From a rules standpoint, the Warforged aren't my favorite things in the world. A fighter or barbarian warforged has very few problems with any of the limitations; being incapable of feeling fatique means a warforged barbarian can burn all of their action points very easily just raging non-stop until the next level. I would remove the ability to use potions and digestable magic; if they never eat, they aren't equipped with any kind of digestive system for these things. Applied oils can work, like oil of repair, but I prefer to enforce this limitation just to balance the huge bonuses from a rules standpoint.
I like them from a role-playing standpoint, because a friend that played a warforged did a great job playing him. Socially inept, loud and dumb. He was great. The best part is if a player can be curious about concepts foreign to warforged. What is 'hungry'? What is 'tired'? Why do you deactivate for eight hours every night; are all of your cores damaged somehow? Or do you just need more power?