if any of these adventures were ever actually playtested?
Sorry if this has been asked before, but I'm a player, and can't read any of the other threads.
Seriously though, we've just finished up the 4th last adventure (with the library/fountain). Our party consists of 6 PCs (and for a time, there was a cohort). All of the players have been playing D&D for at least 5 years, and there are a few of us who have been playing 20+ years. We have only 1 character who is from the original group. Everyone else has died - multiple times. And I don't just mean 2-3 times. A few guys are in double digits. Its ridiculous.
The temple was just a meat grinder - those knights with the negative energy blast wiped out most of the party except the rouge (go evasion) in the first round! So we think "hey - that wasn't thought out very well - I'm sure they'll recognize this and make sure it doesn't happen again". Fast forward to the island - where the party gets sent back to fight the army of undead - and 10! of them crest the hill in the first wave. Guess who wins initiative? 10*14d6 with a reflex save of what? 22? Our fighters had reflex save bonuses of +8, and even if they had +21, they'll still fail 5% of the time. And they can do it 3 TIMES!!! So after the first round of combat, the only people still standing are the rouge and the fighter (he's got a whopping 8 hp left - guess how he made out?) This time everyone had rings of evasion, and they still bought it.
If this was supposed to be a "party killing" scene, why not just script it. Its very frustrating at this point to KNOW you are going to die again. And since the party keeps dieing, there isn't any money left (can't afford to raise dead at 5000 gp a shot cause there isn't any money in the campaign - its all magic and gems, which get sold at 50%). Its probably just as well, as everyone would likely be level 6 at this point, instead of 17 like we are.
And just to finish off my rant, can someone please tell me how the battle(s) with Darl's group can actually be won without metagaming? At level 17, even with 6 characters, we still got the boots handed to us. Meteor storm to open, following by a butt whupping by the efreet/nightmare. Assassin hiding in the wings to snipe, and demons set up to go. Of course Darl being ths smart guy he is, called for help, using his planar ally spell to get a PIT FIEND before hand, since he knew where we had to go.
All in all, this is just ridiculous. The worst of it all is....I REALLY LIKE THE STORY ARC!! I think this could have been really great, but most of the encounters just seem way overpowered for the groups that will face them - turning it into a killing field.
Anyway - thanks for the rant - looking forward to the next adventure path, and I hope that lessons from this one will be carried forward....
Sean, to be honest...your pretty dang right. Ive DM'd the AoW for our group since the week the 1st issue was released, and my players are about to attend Zeech's banquet. Having read all of the issues, I often asked myself "how are they gonna survive that"? There ARE many encounters in the AP that seem like a landslide for the bad guys (the Swords of Kyuss, the fight with the mindflayer, pretty much everything in the Whispering Cairn, and few others you havent had to deal with yet...).
On the other hand, so many encounters end up being child's play for my group (and others, i think). The battle at Blackwall, Moreto the ghoul, and pretty much every fight in Return to the Whispering Cairn. My players manage to often defeat many of the encounters in less than two rounds. Kinda lame, for the DM and the players.
Im not sure about your DM, but Ive tried to stick to the "tactics" section of the monster description in the magazine, which details how the creature should prepare and operate during the fight. It usually involves the monster pulling a few punches, so to speak, and not being absolutely ruthless (hence all the guys not using their negative energy blast at the same time and consecutively, one round after another). So long as the group has fun and feels challenged, I dont care if the bad guys get trounced every once in a while. And when the bad guys have a severe case of "the upper hand", i usually just try to have fun with the fight, spreading the "love" around so all the characters take a good beating before someone figures out a creative and clever way to bring the bad guy down.
However, by the numbers, it is indeed a character-killer. But if your lucky enough to game with some guys that have been at it for over 20 years, just ask em about the first time they played the Tomb of Horrors. Now thats a lich with some notches on his sarcophogus..
Did you try *preparing* for any of these encounters? Death ward, spell immunity, etc?
I agree that many of the encounters are difficult, and that a few are *too* difficult, but many of these encounters can be beaten by a little preparation. The clues are often there, you just gotta find 'em.
I have to concur . . . I know that the first time you run into a bunch of unknown fairly powerful undead, it might be pretty horrible for the party, but once you start to get the idea of who is behind the storyline, and what you have faced before, don't you start looking for anti-undead magic items, items to protect from negative energy, scrolls and potions of spells you might need but don't want to waste a valuable spell slot on?
Creative Director
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Age of Worms is tough... no doubt about it. The adventures are playtested (some more than others), though; that's generally the responsibility of the writer of the adventure. Also, the adventures go through a development process wherein their balance is further refined. But high-level adventures are deadly; they have to be, to be able to challenge PCs who can dish out 100s of points of damage a round or can cast spells like astral projection or time stop or mind blank or wish.
But still, the campaign is tough. If you're finding your PCs are having a rough time, it's probably a good idea to either soften up the foes or put the PCs on a side quest to give them a level and run them at a level above what the adventures ask for.
Adventure difficulty is one of the toughest thigns to perfect... it's certainly something I'll be keeping an eye on as we develop Savage Tide.
I don't understand how other groups are dying right and left. None of the 6 characters in my group have died. Only two have come close, once in the Whispering Cairn with the passage of the face, and the second just last week during the invisible stalker/rotted plank fight. None have even been dropped to negative hp. I admit that I changed the beetle swarms in WC to giant beetles because I hate swarms. To make it tougher, I haven't given them time to rest or gain XP in HoHR so far. Its been the most challenging yet. They're resting currently and will be given XP tomorrow night when we play again.
My group is finishing up the Encounter at Blackwall keep and has only put one post in the obituary thread during the TFoE. That was a tough one for them. One encounter left 4 unconcious and one warlock clinging to the roof trying to finish off the bad guys before everyone went to -10.
I am worried though about my party's ability to heal/detact traps. The medic is alternating rogue/cleric levels. These rolls are not being filled by anyone else in the group and the DC's will go up faster than his abilities. (let's not forget about turn undead!) I have a feeling that if a couple of PC's die, they will not be raised, and true clerics/rogues join the group.
Did you try *preparing* for any of these encounters? Death ward, spell immunity, etc?
Indeed we did - those that we knew about. For example, when exploring the temple we came across those Kyuss knights (the ones with the negative energy blast ability). We used death ward and spell immunity, as well as a bunch of others. However, since the cleric can only cast so many spells a day, and there are only so many scrolls to go around (since they cost $$, of which there is very little relatively speaking in this path), not everyone got one. And since the temple was so far away from civilization, its not like we could "pop back" to town to buy what we needed. And of course, since we didn't even know what they could do, or that they were even in the room (did a listen check, but since undead don't breath/talk/move around without reason, couldn't hear them) - so of course we had to meet them to find out what they did. You guys can do the math, but in that room 3*14d6 damage against level 12 (I think) PCs is enough to kill any non fighter type outright, and possibly kill the fighters, as reflex saves aren't their forte.
Same goes for the big battle later on. And since we were ambushed by Darl, couldn't prep for that, but even then, how would you? We could fight them but unless we killed all the wish/raise dead casters, they'd just be back. I guestimated, but I think the ECL of the encounter with Darl was on the order of 23..against level 17 PCs.. Heck - the titan was 21 I think.
I will agree with the previous poster though who said some of the encounters were cakewalks. We strolled through the keep, and even the doppleganger portion wasn't that tough. The Whispering Cairn and the Temple were meat grinders. It seems like this was an all or none thing - either easy or murderous.
Finally - while I thought the idea of Zeech's party was a good one, what character by this point in the adventure has been pumping up their diplomacy skills? There hasn't been ANY call for them to date to speak of (after Diamond Lake) - and with spot/listen/search checks at a premium, who has the extra skill points?? Its one thing to have a character concept as a diplomat, but if you don't get to use those skills untill the last third of the path, your character is usually dead by that point.
I appreciate that its hard to make a level specific adventure, and even harder to include enough XP for the characters to go up the number of levels needed. However, I wonder if super hard encounters that could really only be consistantly won by metagming (not that our group is immune to that...to the contrary) is the right answer. Perhaps more story awards, magical XP bonuses or other methods might not be more effective and less frustrating.
Oh - and I AM one of the guys with 20 years experience, and the only PC to live through everything to date - and I played the Tomb or Horrors (essentially the same way this guy is staying alive - stand back and stay out of the way, while assisting from range/with spells) - we made it to Acerack before getting snuffed ;)
I am worried though about my party's ability to heal/detact traps. The medic is alternating rogue/cleric levels. These rolls are not being filled by anyone else in the group and the DC's will go up faster than his abilities. (let's not forget about turn undead!) I have a feeling that if a couple of PC's die, they will not be raised, and true clerics/rogues join the group.
This is what happened in our group, though its a rouge/wizard. The DCs do rise much faster then he'll be able to keep up - he'll be able to make his search and disarm checks, as he can still keep his search/disarm/open skills at max level, but its the spellcasting that is giving us grief. Caster/non-caster combos screw the caster - their spell levels are too low, and their spell resistance checks aren't up to snuff. We found that the number of spells per day wasn't even sufficent. Learned this the hard way, and won't be doing it again.
At higher levels, detect magic is likely to help detect traps - at least, how I run it. It helped massively in "A Gathering of Winds".
Cheers!