A high level knight of the chalice potentially adds 4d6 extra damage per hit. Does anyone think this is a bit much, and have any of your players stumbled upon this little gem of a class that wreaks havoc on evil Outsiders (even more so with a few levels of Ranger before the prestige class, and with a bane weapon or a mace of smiting)?
Against Adimarchus, they're gonna need it.
4d6 is not THAT much extra damage at high levels. I have a KotC in my group (~level 13) and it's not been a problem so far. You should probably look into the WE for Complete Warrior though, that describes the Order of the Chalice, along with Code of Conduct, and membership cost (15% of treasure earned).
4d6 is not a bit much. Once you have a Frenzied Berserker in your group, you can complain.
4d6 extra damage is not catastrophic, but that is per hit, and a 19th level or 20th level character with 9 or 10 levels in Knight of the chalice gets four attacks per round with a potential for an extra 16d6 of damage PER ROUND to whatever evil outsider he hits, plus all the regular damage that a high level fighting class character is capable of dishing out. That spells serious problems for the fiends throughout the Shackled City. What I need is an NPC class that is specialized in stomping the knights of the chalice....
What about the Mortal Hunter prestige class from the Book of Vile Darkness?
Wow. A 20th-level pure-melee character dishes out huge amounts of damage in melee. Who knew?
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Wow. A 20th-level pure-melee character dishes out huge amounts of damage in melee. Who knew?
Is that sarcasm?!
Heh. True enough, though. I think if you look at pure fighter at 20th level with DMG-advised character wealth, you should be able to strike 7 times per round (with greater 2-weapon fighting) and get at LEAST +4d6 on each hit from magical enchantments. And that's BEFORE you pull off a Whirlwind attack or figure in the +4dmg per hit (that's another 1d6 equiv) from specialization and greater specialization. Oh... and the weapon does some damage.
You're talking about a maximum of about 1d10+4d6+5+str * 4 + 5d6+5+1/2str * 3 not counting crits.
Yes, melee classes CRANK out the damage. If pure fighter weren't so boring, more DMs would have a hard time coping with the damage output of their characters. Thankfully, the shiny prestige classes distract most players....
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I agree with the sentiment that 4d6 damage is not that big of a deal. Yeah, it's really cool against adimarchus, but there's a decent mix of non-planar encounters. Also, the chances of hitting every iterative attack on an appropriate CR foe are not that great. Unless your fighting imps, you're not going to be seeing 16d6 damage.
Prestige classes like the knight of the chalice are built for campaigns with lots of planar enemies. You should be glad that your player is engaged enough in the campaign that he is building his character to tackle the challenges he encounters, not trying to think of ways to punish him for that decision. I'd be a lot more irritated if he were taking an anti-undead class or a sea based prestige class where his abilities would be irrelevant at best.
Congratulations on running a campaign that has captured your players imaginations. Recognize it as a blessing and let them shine.
If pure fighter weren't so boring, more DMs would have a hard time coping with the damage output of their characters. Thankfully, the shiny prestige classes distract most players....
Actually, that's not correct anymore, pure fighters are definately not boring. With all the new tactical and weapon style feats, a pure fighter is one of the most challanging and fun builds to play. But, as you say, all the shiny prestige classes distracts people from discovering that.
I think if you look at pure fighter at 20th level with DMG-advised character wealth, you should be able to strike 7 times per round (with greater 2-weapon fighting) and get at LEAST +4d6 on each hit from magical enchantments. And that's BEFORE you pull off a Whirlwind attack or figure in the +4dmg per hit (that's another 1d6 equiv) from specialization and greater specialization. Oh... and the weapon does some damage.
You're talking about a maximum of about 1d10+4d6+5+str * 4 + 5d6+5+1/2str * 3 not counting crits.
This is exactly where one of my players is going, with twin scimitars to boot. That threat range of 18-20 is impressive...until you get a keen weapon or Improved Critical, then it's just ugly. I think in my next campaign threat ranges will be increased by 1, rather than double...or am I the only one that thinks a threat range that large is a bit much?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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This is exactly where one of my players is going, with twin scimitars to boot. That threat range of 18-20 is impressive...until you get a keen weapon or Improved Critical, then it's just ugly. I think in my next campaign threat ranges will be increased by 1, rather than double...or am I the only one that thinks a threat range that large is a bit much?
I always figured that the scorn and mockery heaped upon the player choosing two weapon fighting with scimitars was a sufficient check on that particular strategy. ;-)
I'm pretty laissez-faire about issues like this. High level characters are meant to be powerful. Besides, it's really the failed saves that make or break high level combat. Once a fighter is capable of doing more than 50hp of damage in a single hit (thus triggering a massive damage save), the extra damage beyond that point is a marginal benefit.
Keep in mind, that objects in the mirror may appear closer than they are. On paper, there are a lot of concepts that look stupidly powerful (e.g., the mystic theurge), but it's seeing them in action that should inform how you react. If your uber fighter is walking through every challenge without breaking a sweat, you've got a problem. On the other hand, if he's capable of quickly taking out a foe in melee, but can't penetrate magical defenses or mount an effective ranged assault, let him capitalize on his niche. Your player wants to be good at melee combat - let him. Just don't make every combat a melee combat and he (and the group) will feel challenged.
Thanks for the feedback. Our previous campaign capped at about level 13, so I'm flying blind at high levels. Of course, since we're just now finishing Drakthar's Way, we've got some time for me to bone up on high level play. :-)
I always figured that the scorn and mockery heaped upon the player choosing two weapon fighting with scimitars was a sufficient check on that particular strategy. ;-)
Actually, the player has had to put up with a lot more mockery since the 3.5 DMG came out and the Dragon Disciple iconic picture changed from the devilishly handsome, spell-in-hand figure to the rather effeminate monk-thingy found in the blue book.
Keep in mind, that objects in the mirror may appear closer than they are. On paper, there are a lot of concepts that look stupidly powerful (e.g., the mystic theurge), but it's seeing them in action that should inform how you react. If your uber fighter is walking through every challenge without breaking a sweat, you've got a problem. On the other hand, if he's capable of quickly taking out a foe in melee, but can't penetrate magical defenses or mount an effective ranged assault, let him capitalize on his niche. Your player wants to be good at melee combat - let him. Just don't make every combat a melee combat and he (and the group) will feel challenged.
Yeah, I'm going to see how this campaign plays out before I make any decisions about the next one. I've found that what I see on paper and what happens in the game tend to be two different things...
Actually, the player has had to put up with a lot more mockery since the 3.5 DMG came out and the Dragon Disciple iconic picture changed from the devilishly handsome, spell-in-hand figure to the rather effeminate monk-thingy found in the blue book.
What!?!? you mean the dragon disciple pic in the 3.5 dmg *isn't* actually female?
Whatever, unless you're going like bard4/barb2/fight4/DD10 than that prestige class is really not good at all.
Yeah, the knight of the chalice seems scary on paper, but trust me, its more flavor than anything.