I've worked in publishing for years, and I can tell you that "fair use" is extremely vague, although it is usually applied to educational purposes. I have no wish to continue the debate, except to say that if you are distributing something for free to people that might have purchased it otherwise, you're not helping the hobby. Besides, PDFs are cheap. 'Nuff said!
Yes, its unfortunate I couldn't seem to get the point across,(although I felt I made it numerous times) that the people I gave the cheap as dirt PDF to, would NOT have otherwise purchased the product without my input. Now that I have gotten them interested, they are buying numerous other products that support the Greyhawk setting. It's like I gave them a demo, and now they are buying the game. Thanks for pointing out that "fair use" is extemely vague and thus completely subjective to the case by case context.
Can we get back to the Greyhawk argument now? ;)
By all means, I certainly would not object to an updated 3.5 Greyhawk source book. I think WotC would be suprised on how well it sold. Personally I'd buy 3 copies, 1 for myself and two to give away! (LOL!)
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Right, I picked the name after a european (german) punk-rock band that existed in the mid 80's, because I found it fun (totenhosen = dead pants = pantalon mort).Deadpants Rule!!!!My 1st PC (created back in '83 or '84), Dryalf de Totenhosen, lives in the western part of Sunndi.
I even played all of his 7 children, mostly Ian de Totenhosen who is now a 12th...
The "Toten Hosen" still exist, even though they aged. Campino, the lead singer should be somewhere between forty and fifty by now (?). For anyone interested in the band: http://www.dietotenhosen.de/
Günther
I have a Toten Hosen CD; I'm not much of a punk rock person, but I like German language music on occasion.
I also like Bap because the Koelscher dialect reminds me of my grandfather. Bap sounds a lot like Dire Straits, which is also cool in my book. Best German rock band is still the Scorpions, followed by UFO and then Accept....but they all sing in English. Rammstein? Well, I really have to be in the mood to listen to them, but they're okay as well.
Back on topic--I got my Eberron Campaign Setting book today. It's very attractive at first glance. I've already read Sharn and there's nothing wrong with Eberron at all that I can see. Different flavor, yes, but good nevertheless. I plan on reading the setting over the next few weeks to see what I can use in my GH campaign--I think the artificer class might be okay. Warforged? No. Lightning Rail? No Sharn? Yes, a mysterious city on a different GH continent or perhaps adapted as a Baklunish metropolis. We'll see.
The Lords of Dust are definitely going to be in one of my future campaigns--that article by Keith Baker in a recent Dragon magazine was very well done.
Interesting graph. I think for a "dead" campaign world not worth supporting (according to WotC), Greyhawk continues to show that interest for it is right up there with the newcomer.
Right, but they (Kenzer) had to license it from Wizards and didn't buy it from TSR, correct?
Yes, but look at how many other pen-and-paper RPG companies WotC has done any major licensing deals with. Pretty much none. (Paizo is a huge exception to that, for some very important reasons.) Kenzer wrestled that license unwilling from WotC to basically republish the 1E rules - the last thing WotC wanted out there. Lets just say that the old Dragon Archive CD was very good for Kenzer, and a continuing major thorn in the side of WotC. There are still alot of WotC insiders that are really quite bitter about that whole law suit.
Denis, aka "Maldin"
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Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com/
Loads of edition-independent Greyhawk goodness... maps, magic, mechanics, mysteries, and more!
And who the heck in Chandler, Arizona is doing all that Greyhawk googling? ;-)
Denis, aka "Maldin"
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Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com/
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Hi there,
of course I should have known that B.A.P. strikes a chord in you. ;-) B.A.P. just celebrated their 30th band anniversary - and as coincidence wants it Wolfgang Niedecken (lead singer of B.A.P.) grew up next street, and his nephew was in my sports club... I never was that much into B.A.P., the songs were in the radio anyway, but in january nostalgia hit me. My gf and I went to their 30th anniversary concert in the KoelnArena. It was worth it. :-)) Same as for you: a lot of memories - in this case, though, from my teenager time in general - some kind of sound track.
I am not into Rammstein at all - especially due to their disputed political back ground. Neue Deutsche Welle was before my time - I was 6 when Nena grew famous, but Falko from Austria was cool. Usually I prefer groovy music, Jazz and Blues aren't bad, either, not your usually taste of music. ;)
When it comes to Eberron (back to topic), I am feeling torn. City of Sharn is a great supplement, it is really well done (had a glimpse into the german version of it), but there are just too many things which wouldn't make it into my FR campaign (which happens to have slightly reduced magic anyway!). The list of incompatible content is almost identical to yours and I wonder if it is then still worth buying.
I had a second glimpse at S&S's Scarred Lands setting after buying some Creature Collection books and ended up buying most of the books. Different setting, yet still quite true to 1st edition feeling.
Unfortunately I missed the train to GH. I started playing AD&D when the From the Ashes box was already available, and the first FR campaign set just had been released. By then there was barely a choice: GH was already such a huge setting that getting into it was quite an achievement, proabably comparable to today's new D&D players facing FR. ;-) Eberron is more modern, but I fear I am too stuck to medieval settings. At times even FR feels too modern. :p
Greetings from Cologne,
Günther
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When we publish Greyhawk material, our sales go up.
Period.
All of this anecdotal google stuff is interesting, but it's not what we base our business decisions on.
--Erik
... and some people just have a personal liking for GH, don't they? ;-)
Serious: It is after all the "core campaign" of D&D 3.x. So it just makes sense. I wouldn't mind if every non campaign specific adventure was based somewhere on Oerth.
Greetings,
Günther
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By all means, I certainly would not object to an updated 3.5 Greyhawk source book. I think WotC would be suprised on how well it sold. Personally I'd buy 3 copies, 1 for myself and two to give away! (LOL!)
I wouldn't mind an updated source book either for I am still feeling very intrigued by a setting with such a rich tradition. But then there already was such a sourcebook. It is called the GH Gazetteer, and differs considerably from FR and ER source books (probably for a reason). Part of the different history of GH seems to be a different (more story/ adventure driven) development of its history. I wish there was a comparable source book/ novel/ adventure ratio in the FR!! ;-)
Maybe fan interests and economic reason could be combined? Could Paizo strike a deal with WotC and write on GH's history with their adventures? (like e.g. one GH campaign history driving adventure in Dungeon *or* some short sage ramblings in Dragon every two or three adventures)
Günther
When we publish Greyhawk material, our sales go up. Period.
There ya have it! The only statistic that matters. ;-)
Denis, aka "Maldin"
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Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com/
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When we publish Greyhawk material, our sales go up.
Period.
All of this anecdotal google stuff is interesting, but it's not what we base our business decisions on.
--Erik
I love Rpgs,it dosent matter what. It could be GH,Eberron,FR, or any of the tons of other D&D and non-D&D (Vampire ,Cthulhu, ect.) settings. So my question to Paizo is: Since it seems that you guys love Greyhawk so much(At least Erik Mona seems to), how come we havent seen any GH licensed products from you? This of course is not counting the liberally GH sprinkeled APs. Is it WotC that is holding you back, or is it a lack of finacial return, or both?
It's my understanding that WotC does not see GH as part of its business strategy anymore. I find this sad, because I and it seems to me many like minded people would love to have an updated,beautifully rendered copy of the GH setting. Is Paizo the last hope for the continuation of a D&D legacy or is that to much to ask?
Polls in general can be pretty misleading, and these things fluctuate based on a number of factors. And they definitely don't bring about some kind of 'AH HA!' moment of supremacy for any campaign setting.
I am in the younger demographic for WoTC's marketing (21) but I would definitely consider buying new Greyhawk content if it were published. I do take a bit of offense to the general tone that Eberron and therefore its "target audience" is childish in some way. I like Eberron a lot, probably as much as I like Greyhawk. It's just a matter of choosing what kind of flavor one wants. There's crossover appeal for all of it, especially since they both have the same underlying system and Dungeon magazine is publishing so many great adventures for both of them.
I bought the Dungeon Master's Guide 2 almost solely for Saltmarsh. Because it does have something of a Greyhawk history and feel, because it's a very good example of a "home base" with lots going on for characters of all levels and because I liked the recent adventure published for it. I bought Sharn: City of Towers because there's a lot of useful material in there that can be stripped for any campaign, because it plays such a central role in the setting, because the cover art and design was good and because the Eberron core book piqued my curiosity.
Greyhawk as it is known and loved by it's devoted followers still exists, the DMG 2 write-up of Saltmarsh proves that there are Greyhawk elements kicking their way back through the core suppliments. I think the major issue a lot of fans have is that WoTC chose to file off the serial numbers and make it more generic, rather than giving it the Forgotten Realms (and Eberron) treatment of piling up book after book of revised material. Shortly before Third Edition, Greyhawk did get some redressing in The Adventure Begins, Player's Guide to Greyhawk, and the second incarnations of Slavers, Against the Giants, White Plume Mountain, Keep on the Borderlands and the third edition sequel to Temple of Elemental Evil. And that's how I found the setting.
I would ask if a new sourcebook on Greyhawk would help the setting all that much. There's a wealth of established material already in 1st and 2nd edition, as well as some 3rd edition books. And it is the "default" setting in the three core books. I think going any further than publishing more Greyhawk adventures might be excessive.
Greyhawk as it is known and loved by it's devoted followers still exists, the DMG 2 write-up of Saltmarsh proves that there are Greyhawk elements kicking their way back through the core suppliments. I think the major issue a lot of fans have is that WoTC chose to file off the serial numbers and make it more generic, rather than giving it the Forgotten Realms (and Eberron) treatment of piling up book after book of revised material. Shortly before Third Edition, Greyhawk did get some redressing in The Adventure Begins, Player's Guide to Greyhawk, and the second incarnations of Slavers, Against the Giants, White Plume Mountain, Keep on the Borderlands and the third edition sequel to Temple of Elemental Evil. And that's how I found the setting.
I would ask if a new sourcebook on Greyhawk would help the setting all that much. There's a wealth of established material already in 1st and 2nd edition, as well as some 3rd edition books. And it is the "default" setting in the three core books. I think going any further than publishing more Greyhawk adventures might be excessive.
In regards to a DM's needs, I wholly agree that the current available resources, with the exception of the out-of-print Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, is adequate. However, I have a heard time bringing new players, who are unfamiliar with Greyhawk, into the setting. I strongly beleive a v3.5 Player's Guide to Greyhawk would be a resourceful tool for players new to this setting.
A lack of such a resource is one of many factors that compelled me to switch to Eberron despite my love for Greyhawk. As an aside, I find that Eberron shares much of the same elements that make Greyhawk a successful setting. I think those that can't look past lightning rails and warforged are too narrow minded to appreciate the Eberron Campaign Setting.
how come we havent seen any GH licensed products from you? This of course is not counting the liberally GH sprinkeled APs. Is it WotC that is holding you back, or is it a lack of finacial return, or both?
Somewhere on these Boards (or is it over at WotC??) you have a post of Erik Mona explaining that Paizo had asked for the rights to Greyhawk (when WotC expressed that Core products would be de-Greyhawkised) and that they were turned down by WotC.
Some other posters interpreted this as a signal from WotC that they intended to suffocate/kill Greyhawk because they were afraid of the competition it could represent to the FR/Eberron.
I'll try to find a link.
Bocklin
Ok. Here is the quote:
If the rights to publish Greyhawk were to become available, you can bet that Paizo would go after them. We have asked about it in the past on a couple of occasions, and the rights have never been available.--Erik
That was coming after other posts around this topic. The whole is there:
http://paizo.com/dungeon/messageboards/generalDiscussion/archives/greyhawkO fficiallyDroppedByWotC
Bocklin
Actually, some other posts reminded me that WOTC might not be completely insane to intentionally limit how many campaign settings they publish. Follow the logic here.
You may try to follow all the Core products and both campaign settings (rare), or one campaign setting, the core products, and maybe a few of the supplements from the other setting (slightly more common), or one campaign setting only and core material, or just core material, or finally, just one campaign setting and what you absolutely need of core material to run it.
The problem isn't if you would buy Greyhawk, or whatever other campaign setting put out. Many likely would. And it isn't if Greyhawk would kill off Eberron or FR from people "converting" to it, because, from a Hasbro perspective, if they make money, they don't care which settings bring it in for them.
The problem is that you might create dabblers rather than dedicated campaigners. I might pick up the FRCS, the Eberron Campaign setting, the hypothetical Greyhawk book, the DragonLance book . . . and never pick up Lost Empires of Faerun, the Explorers Handbook, Sons of Grummsh, or the Voyage of the Golden Dragon, etc.
And it can also "whiplash" so that once you are so spread out to all of the settings, you suddenly don't care about ANY of them, and are only then buying core material.
We have a model of this from 2nd edition. I will admit myself that I had almost everything FR, I picked up the Dark Sun campaign setting, the Planescape campaign setting, the Spelljammer campaign setting, and my friend bought Greyhawk and Ravenloft. In the end, I was only buying FR stuff, until the day the ex-wife beat the gaming out of me (thank God for my wonderful new wife, but that is another story).
Some other posters interpreted this as a signal from WotC that they intended to suffocate/kill Greyhawk because they were afraid of the competition it could represent to the FR/Eberron.
This is the frustrating part.
Please decide WotC ... either deem setting popular to the point that it presents competition (in which case it should be fully supported at the FR/Eberron level) or consider it dead (and therefore there's little threat in auctioning off the rights to Paizo [yay], Gygax, or someone else).My fear is that WotC simply decided they were trying to "fill too many buckets with rain" and decided they wanted one "standard" fantasy setting and one "offbeat" fantasy setting. Eberron easily filled the latter spot, but for the former they chose FR (presumably for reasons of sales, access to on-staff FR-friendly designers, etc.).
Admittedly TSR went setting crazy in the 2nd Edition days and split off their market audience into countless settings (many poorly supported). It's just frustrating to see them trying out new ideas (such as Magic of Incarnum) and sitting on a potential campaign book that, if produced with care, could make them a fortune and please many GH fans.
I also consider labeling Greyhawk as the core default setting a joke. Except for the god details (which could easily be interpreted as domain-usage or pantheon examples) there isn't any Greyhawk in the 3 core books that I can spot. Back in the 1970s and 1980s Greyhawk was indeed the default setting, routinely mentioned in most adventures and supplements, but that is no longer the case.
I also consider labeling Greyhawk as the core default setting a joke. Except for the god details (which could easily be interpreted as domain-usage or pantheon examples) there isn't any Greyhawk in the 3 core books that I can spot. Back in the 1970s and 1980s Greyhawk was indeed the default setting, routinely mentioned in most adventures and supplements, but that is no longer the case.
While it might not be mentioned in the core rulebooks (and I mean the three true core rulebooks), it is mentioned with some frequency in various supplements. Arms and Equipment Guide, Book of Vile Darkness, Book of Exalted Deeds, the forthcoming Hordes of the Abyss, Dungeon Master's Guide II, Monster Manual II, the 3e Class builder series, the Complete series, and the Race series all have references to people and places specific to Greyhawk.
You rule Uncle. Keep writing Greyhawk, and we'll keep buying it.
You rule Uncle. Keep writing Greyhawk, and we'll keep buying it.
Word.
You rule Uncle. Keep writing Greyhawk, and we'll keep buying it.Word.
Yo.
And maybe over time that idol on the PHB II cover might start wondering what is happening below it and take a look. :) Rob Kuntz
Amen.
Anyone interested in the original fiction let me know and I will plop down the link.
I'm going to paraphrase here...
"Never will you find a bigger hive of Greyhawk fans and fanatics."
Plop your links away. :D
Otherwise, where is a good place on the boards here to just discuss Greyhawk stuff? It seems magazine topic specific, so, I can discuss MC but other topics related to upcoming or general greyhawk subjects seem spread out. Maybe I can get Erik to cut me a corner somehwere? ;)
The General Discussion forum (the current one we're in) seems to be the best place for non-specific magazine discussions. I'm sure I wouldn't be the first to say that any discussion you may partake in or start would be very stimulating, no matter what forum you put it on. :D (Yes, I know, judicious flattery...it's not always a bad thing!) You may want to prefix the thread topic with "Greyhawk" if you want to limit it to a Greyhawk discussion, but that's entirely optional.
However, feel free to use your Epic powers of Persuasion on Erik and his minions. I'm sure it will be fun to watch - I'll make sure to bring the popcorn. ;)