Spectral Hand - Questions related to limiting its power


3.5/d20/OGL

Shadow Lodge

Spectral Hand
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: One spectral hand
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

A ghostly, glowing hand shaped from your life force materializes and moves as you desire, allowing you to deliver low-level, touch range spells at a distance. On casting the spell, you lose 1d4 hit points that return when the spell ends (even if it is dispelled), but not if the hand is destroyed. (The hit points can be healed as normal.) For as long as the spell lasts, any touch range spell of 4th level or lower that you cast can be delivered by the spectral hand. The spell gives you a +2 bonus on your melee touch attack roll, and attacking with the hand counts normally as an attack. The hand always strikes from your direction. The hand cannot flank targets like a creature can. After it delivers a spell, or if the hand goes beyond the spell range, goes out of your sight, the hand returns to you and hovers.

The hand is incorporeal and thus cannot be harmed by normal weapons. It has improved evasion (half damage on a failed Reflex save and no damage on a successful save), your save bonuses, and an AC of at least 22. Your Intelligence modifier applies to the hand’s AC as if it were the hand’s Dexterity modifier. The hand has 1 to 4 hit points, the same number that you lost in creating it.

In my gaming group (6 players), we have 2 casters capable of using the spell: a wizard and a Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror). During a large battle, the fighters held off the onrushing foes while the casters hammered away from the back. The casters used Spectral Hand to deliver touch spells to the foes. During the battle, there was a discussion regarding the use of Spectral Hand, specifically with the phrase "The hand always strikes from your direction." There was no confusion on the point of the hand being useless for flanking.

Based upon the spell description, here are a few questions our group would like this community to review:

What does it mean when it says the "hand always strikes from your direction"? If the caster is facing North, must the hand strike toward the north? Does the phrase even make sense in the directionless world of 3.5?

If a target is northeast of the caster but party members stand to the northeast between the caster and the target, can the hand float around/over the intervening party members and strike at the target or must it travel "through" the party members to strike the target or is it blocked by the intervening party members altogether?

Does the hand occupy a square until the spell it holds is discharged?

Must the hand travel in a straight line (in the direction the caster is facing) to the target it is going to touch? Must it travel in a straight line (again in the direction the caster is facing) to a square that is adjacent to the target it is going to touch?

Would party members block line of effect for the spell? Would they block the line of effect on the hand's automatic return after the spell was delivered, neccessitating the caster move to a place where he has an unimpeded path to the target so the hand can return properly?

Is the hand subject to AoO's as it moves?

The hand remains "on station" until the spell it holds is delivered. If the intended target moves, is moving the hand (or changing targets) a free action, a standard action or a move-equivlent action for the controlling caster? Can it even be moved and if so, can it only attack in the direction the caster is facing?

Can the hand make an AoO if the target provokes one?

If a foe is completely surrounded, can the spectral hand still attack it? If so, How?

I know a number of these questions seem similar, probably because they are :) The concept I am trying to get across seems a bit nebulous to me, so I wanted to provide a wide range of questions we discussed to give you the nature of the conversation we had. Thus, if you feel like commenting, you need not answer these questions directly, only provide your general viewpoint on the use of the hand.

These questions were brought up because the DM sees the spell as overpowered if loosely interpreted (especially with the Dread Necromancer, which has unlimited touch attack abilities similar to a Warlock's unlimited eldritch blasts) and sought to limit the spell's usefulness by forcing the caster to worry about straight line effects, melee cover and the like similar to rays/ranged touched effects. As a player (though I do not play the Necromancer), I obviously like a loose interpretation of the spell where these issues simply don't exist, but I have agreed to try and seek out other's opinions on the matter in hopes that a compromise could be found.


Well the way the spell reads to me, it's more like the spell goes out from you kinda like a yo-yo. It says it returns to you after the spell is delivered. I picture it as you can a touch spell and the hand shoots out from you to the target and delivers the spell then shoots back. Whether it goes as exact straight line or just comes from your diction is up to the DM. It can't flank so it doesn't really matter. Can it attack if the creature is surrounded? Sure, its size tiny so it can share the same square as the target. As far as the Dread Necromancer using it for his touch attacks, I don't know. I know nothing about a Dread Necromancer, but to me the spell says it only works for spells with a range of touch of 4th level or lower, so any special abilities that have a range of touch would not work in my book.

Scarab Sages

Lich-Loved wrote:

What does it mean when it says the "hand always strikes from your direction"? If the caster is facing North, must the hand strike toward the north? Does the phrase even make sense in the directionless world of 3.5?

If a target is northeast of the caster but party members stand to the northeast between the caster and the target, can the hand float around/over the intervening party members and strike at the target or must it travel "through" the party members to strike the target or is it blocked by the intervening party members altogether?

Here is my take on this. Basically, the caster needs to see the hand and the action that it is trying to take. Many of these questions can be answered if you think of it that way. Does it require "line of sight"? Kind of. It isn't a ray, but you still need to see what is happening with the hand and with every one around the hand to direct it. If the hand gets on the other side of the target, you can't really control it.

Lich-Loved wrote:
Does the hand occupy a square until the spell it holds is discharged?

I agree with Chris -- it is tiny and can take up the same space as the target or anything else for that matter.

Lich-Loved wrote:
Must the hand travel in a straight line (in the direction the caster is facing) to the target it is going to touch? Must it travel in a straight line (again in the direction the caster is facing) to a square that is adjacent to the target it is going to touch?

There is nothing in the description about movement of the hand. I don't see why the hand would have to move in a straight line from the caster. It should be able to move wherever you send it. It also doesn't have a move speed, so it would appear that it can move anywhere within the range of the spell.

Lich-Loved wrote:
Would party members block line of effect for the spell? Would they block the line of effect on the hand's automatic return after the spell was delivered, neccessitating the caster move to a place where he has an unimpeded path to the target so the hand can return properly?

I don't see how a party member would block the return of the hand. Especially since it is incorporeal. There are a couple of other thoughts here though. The description just says that the hand returns to you -- it doesn't say how. And one of the reasons is that the hand goes out of your sight. A cruel DM might rule that if a party member steps between you and the hand, it would return to you.

Lich-Loved wrote:
Is the hand subject to AoO's as it moves?

If it can be seen and attacked, I don't see why it can't be subject to an AoO. However, before you rule on this, you should determine how it returns to the caster (see my comment above).

Lich-Loved wrote:
The hand remains "on station" until the spell it holds is delivered. If the intended target moves, is moving the hand (or changing targets) a free action, a standard action or a move-equivlent action for the controlling caster? Can it even be moved and if so, can it only attack in the direction the caster is facing?

I would rule that since attacking with the hand "counts normally as an attack" then moving the hand would count as a move equivelent action. It should be able to be moved anywhere so the direction shouldn't be an issue. Line of sight might be.

Lich-Loved wrote:
Can the hand make an AoO if the target provokes one?

I would count this as a ranged attack. (Even though it has elements of being a melee attack it is still at range for the caster.) If the caster can make a ranged attack AoO, then I would rule that he can. Otherwise, no.

Lich-Loved wrote:
If a foe is completely surrounded, can the spectral hand still attack it? If so, How?

Yes, because it doesn't really take up a space. You might still have an issue with line of sight however. I might rule that the target might have a cover bonus to AC or give similar penalties to hit the target similar to shooting into melee.

This is pretty much how I would rule it. I also feel that it would only be useful with spells and not special magical abilities. I hope that this is helpful. (Good questions by the way.)

Bill


Lich-Loved wrote:
What does it mean when it says the "hand always strikes from your direction"? If the caster is facing North, must the hand strike toward the north? Does the phrase even make sense in the directionless world of 3.5?

As you are aware, there is no facing in D&D, so the direction the caster is "facing" is irrelevant. The question is where the target is relative to the caster. If the target is north of the caster, the hand strikes northward.

In most situations, it doesn't matter that the hand strikes from a particular direction. Consider, however, a situation like this: the caster has improved invisibility cast on himself, and is using the spectral hand to attack foes. Those foes might be very interested in knowing that the hand is attacking from the south.

Lich-Loved wrote:
If a target is northeast of the caster but party members stand to the northeast between the caster and the target, can the hand float around/over the intervening party members and strike at the target or must it travel "through" the party members to strike the target or is it blocked by the intervening party members altogether?

The hand is incorporeal, so most of those questions are irrelevant. It certainly isn't blocked by them.

Lich-Loved wrote:
Does the hand occupy a square until the spell it holds is discharged?

That depends upon what you mean by "occupy." The hand exists in some designated square, yes. After making a touch attack, for example, the hand returns to the caster and hovers. Therefore, if you want to attack it with a (magic) melee weapon, you have to be within reach of the caster. In that sense, it "occupies" the same square as the caster.

If you mean, does it fill up a square all by itself, then no. First of all, it's incorporeal. Second, it's really small.

Lich-Loved wrote:
Must the hand travel in a straight line (in the direction the caster is facing) to the target it is going to touch? Must it travel in a straight line (again in the direction the caster is facing) to a square that is adjacent to the target it is going to touch?

I would say those are reasonable conclusions to draw from the fact that the hand "always strikes from your direction" and makes melee touch attacks. But there is also no (or virtually no) importance to those conclusions.

Lich-Loved wrote:
Would party members block line of effect for the spell?

Not unless they're really, really, really big. The only thing that blocks line of effect is a solid barrier.

More fundamentally, though, this question suggests a basic misunderstanding of the line of effect rules. Line of effect is needed for the spell to come into effect; once that has happened, it no longer matters. Spectral hand creates an "Effect: One spectral hand". The only line of effect needed is from the caster to the point where that hand first manifests. After that, the hand can travel anywhere within the spell's range, and no line of effect is needed, because the spell's effect has already been created.

Lich-Loved wrote:
Would they block the line of effect on the hand's automatic return after the spell was delivered, neccessitating the caster move to a place where he has an unimpeded path to the target so the hand can return properly?

No, for several reasons, the most important of which is that line of effect is no longer necessary.

Lich-Loved wrote:
Is the hand subject to AoO's as it moves?

No. "An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you." (PHB, page 137.) A spectral hand does not take any actions of its own. It's just a tool. This would be like asking: "Do I get an attack of opportunity on the arrow my enemy fires at me?"

Lich-Loved wrote:
The hand remains "on station" until the spell it holds is delivered. If the intended target moves, is moving the hand (or changing targets) a free action, a standard action or a move-equivlent action for the controlling caster?

Moving and attacking with the hand is not any kind of action at all. It is part of another action (Melee Attack). Again, use the arrow analogy. Firing an arrow is just part of the Ranged Attack action.

Lich-Loved wrote:
Can it even be moved and if so, can it only attack in the direction the caster is facing?

It "moves as you desire," but "returns to you and hovers" after delivering a touch attack, so it's pretty much always going to be (1) next to you, or (2) next to the target you're trying to touch.

Lich-Loved wrote:
Can the hand make an AoO if the target provokes one?

This one is tough. A strict reading of the rules would seem to require that it can. I don't think it would be unreasonable for a DM to rule that it can't, though.

Lich-Loved wrote:
If a foe is completely surrounded, can the spectral hand still attack it? If so, How?

Well, for one thing, because it's incorporeal.

Lich-Loved wrote:
These questions were brought up because the DM sees the spell as overpowered if loosely interpreted (especially with the Dread Necromancer, which has unlimited touch attack abilities similar to a Warlock's unlimited eldritch blasts)...

That would make me think that maybe the Dread Necromancer is overpowered, rather than blame spectral hand.

Lich-Loved wrote:
...and sought to limit the spell's usefulness by forcing the caster to worry about straight line effects, melee cover and the like similar to rays/ranged touched effects.

Well, if the combination is overpowered, and the DM doesn't want to make any changes to the Dread Necromancer class, maybe some changes to spectral hand are in order.


i know someone else stated this before, but i think it bears repeating: spectral hand only carries spells up to 4th level. class abilities, spell-like effects, and other such special class or racial powers cannot be used through a spectral hand. thus, the dread necromancers charnel touch class ability could not be used through a spectral hand.

separately, i will concede that spectral hand is exceptional in its abilities. however, i would not go so far as to say its overpowered. think about magic missile... its the top end 1st level spell. i think, by extension, spectral hand can be considered the top end 2nd level spell. i can see plenty of uses, some of which may be considered abuses, by wizards and wizard/clerics. just remember, you still have to make your attack roll, and in some cases, they still get a chance to save, too (fort partial on chill touch, for example).

i hope i helped,

tog


the other guy wrote:
i know someone else stated this before, but i think it bears repeating: spectral hand only carries spells up to 4th level. class abilities, spell-like effects, and other such special class or racial powers cannot be used through a spectral hand. thus, the dread necromancers charnel touch class ability could not be used through a spectral hand.

Actually, I believe (I may be wrong, as I don't have the book within reach at the moment, but I'm pretty certain,) there's a note in the description of Charnel Touch (and a couple of the Dread Necromancer's other abilities) which specifically states that it can be delivered through a Spectral Hand.

The only thing about the class that struck me as potentially gamebreaking is their ability to control veritable hordes of undead, which can lead to a well built necromancer throwing hundreds of skeletons at his enemies because some of them will roll twenties, and each one explodes in a shower of negative energy that should hurt the other guy *anyway*.


The White Toymaker wrote:
Actually, I believe (I may be wrong, as I don't have the book within reach at the moment, but I'm pretty certain,) there's a note in the description of Charnel Touch (and a couple of the Dread Necromancer's other abilities) which specifically states that it can be delivered through a Spectral Hand.

toymaker, you are correct. i humbly admit i was wrong. all of the dread necromancers touch abilities mey be used through a spectral hand. however, that aside, in most cases (this being an exception) what i said is true.

tog

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