So I just finished reading Resurrection, the last book of War of the Spider Queen. I generally don't read adolescent fiction anymore, but my brain can't deal with heavier stuff at the moment so I figured 'for old times' sake'. In this book, the anti-hero/heroine drow are trekking thru Lolth's realm which is described as being populates by an endless influx of new drow souls. So I thought to myself 'geez, can there be so many drow in the multiverse to create such a constant source of souls for the spider queen?' (is Lolth worsphipped in Greyhawk too?) Then I got thinking about the dynamics of Drow society; their constant war-making on other races and on themselves, their greed and hate for everyone and eachother and how Lolth is always exhorting her priestesses to sacrifice living sentients, even her own drow. Given the drow birthrate, which has to be somewhere in the neibhorhood of 'slow' to 'sluggish', how can they as a race support all of this killing without becoming extinct? Now I realize that the drow (and all the 'naturally evil' creatures in D+D) are simply meant to be a source of villainy and that's excuse enough for them to exist, but has anyone ever had a player or been a player that encounters the drow (or any other organized 'monolithic' evil race) and asked 'Wtf? how did these guys ever make it past their third generation without becoming extinct?'
...is Lolth worsphipped in Greyhawk too? ...
I'm not addressing your main question, but Lolth was introduced in the Vault of the Drow series of adventures, which were ostensibly set in Greyhawk.
Of course, Greyhawk fiction was crap, so Lolth seems to be more closely associated with FR now.
Regards,
Jack
Drow society is like any other society ruled by fear and ignorance.
If you haven't read the Dark Elf trilogy yet, do so. You'll get your answers there.
Asking an individual drow how his society hasn't been wiped out by in-fighting and assination is likely to rouse frustration (and perhaps hostility) simply because that drow would have a hard time answering you. The average male drow is little more than a slave, and the females aren't going to give up their secrets.
In a nation ruled by fear and ignorance, information is scarce. Finding out how drow society ticks would be a very dangerous undertaking.
In this book, the anti-hero/heroine drow are trekking thru Lolth's realm which is described as being populates by an endless influx of new drow souls.
(is Lolth worsphipped in Greyhawk too?)
Given the drow birthrate, which has to be somewhere in the neibhorhood of 'slow' to 'sluggish', how can they as a race support all of this killing without becoming extinct?
Bear in mind that the events of that book take place immediately after the end of Lolth's Silence, a period where far more drow than usual died (in the fall of one drow city, and the turmoil in at least one other), and a period where no souls could find their way to their queen, so a backlog had built up.
Lolth is worshipped in Greyhawk (although I believe it's Lloth there), but the FR and Greyhawk cosmologies are now officially separate - Lolth in FR is not Lolth in Greyhawk. So, the events of that book have no bearing on events in Greyhawk, and Lolth's death(s) in module Q1 don't affect FR.
As to the question of how drow society can survive... it can't. Any realistic calculation of demographics and population would indicate that the drow should die out within a generation. That said, I don't think you could even build cities of the scale of Menzoberranzan in a real-world Underdark, and even if you could you couldn't feed the population.
Ultimately, it's fantasy. You have to accept some impossible things in order to have the story in the first place.
Thanks for the input, all. FR Lolth isn't the same as GH Lloth, huh? I miss the days of Planescape when they were one and the same and all the different pantheons from all the different worlds were on the outer planes. Oh well.
This issue was addressed in a Dragon Magazine #298. Drow have a birthrate more akin to humans, add to this their long lifespans and it makes sense that there are lots of "cannon fodder" to feed Lolth's greed for souls.
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Most fantasy races don't hold up under much scrutiny. Elves in general must be developmentally disabled in some way if it takes them 10 times longer to become a 1st level wizard than a human.
Personally I never understood why bugbears don't rule the fantasy world. They are physically superior to most PC races but they don't have any intelligence penalty that would hamper the development of a sophisticated civilization. They aren't so big as to cause food supply problems, and they don't have any light blindness issues.
In a large and relatively dense population, periodic orgies of violence don't necessarily result in long-term depopulation, nor does a relatively constant but moderately low level of violence. Look at China's recent demographic history and you'll see that even without an extremely high birth rate, the country's population managed to recover quickly from some pretty huge wars and man-made disasters, along with decades of banditry and low-intensity warfare in some regions.
Also, the key factor in population growth is the number of offspring produced by each female during her childbearing years. Since drow women control things, there are no patriarchal morals to keep them from reproducing as frequently as they like or from breeding with other people's men. They also have a relatively long lifespan compared to humans, and thus (one would suppose) a longer period of childbearing years. Presumably most upper class drow women want to have a bevy of daughters competing for their favor and strengthening their noble house--a few may be eliminated before bearing children for the house, but the survivors more than make up for it. Presumably, the drow also tend to sacrifice more males than females--but the paucity of males doesn't make much difference demographically, since a small number of males can keep a considerably larger number of females pregnant. Of course, woe betide the male drow "pet" who is caught letting a woman who is not his owner indulge herself with him. But unless he's caught in the act, a clever drow can always lie his way out of trouble.
So it's not the demographics of drow society that ought to stretch credulity, it's the whole idea of feeding such a large number of people without solar energy to grow plants. I haven't read Salvatore's series, but so far I haven't seen a really good "explanation" for this aspect of drow ecology yet. (Fungi, after all, need animal and plant matter to feed on--real world caves support some life, but not much compared to the surface world.
If you can buy an underground civilization at all, it isn't too hard to imagine that drow society kills a certain number of its own every year but manages to replace them through a relatively high birth rate (compared with surface elves, perhaps a normal one for humans).
The ecology and food webs of D&D have never made sense. Anyone who wants to complain about how unrealistic something is should realize there is no physical way so many different creatures of such massive powers could exist in a world without massive change in the landscape.
Even one fantasy race, say trolls, dropped into Earth's ecology would decimate it. Think about the troubles brought about by BEETLES immigrating form the Orient to the Americas. Now think about a Bullette. What? No way that could exist.
I actually find magic more believable than the ecology of a given D&D setting. To presume a world exists with an alternate set of physics that alter themselves depending on actions of the "normal" laws (moving hands, spoken words, electromagnetic impulses from thoughts) is more reasonable than thinking a dragon could live in a forest over the mountain in a scene that resembled anything like Earth.
Not to mention the biological/evolutionary infeasibility of many creatures (i.e., mimics).
Thus, Fantasy.
So it's not the demographics of drow society that ought to stretch credulity, it's the whole idea of feeding such a large number of people without solar energy to grow plants. I haven't read Salvatore's series, but so far I haven't seen a really good "explanation" for this aspect of drow ecology yet. (Fungi, after all, need animal and plant matter to feed on--real world caves support some life, but not much compared to the surface world.
There are a few clerical spells, and even magic items, that can instantly create meals.
Magic is the answer :]
So it's not the demographics of drow society that ought to stretch credulity, it's the whole idea of feeding such a large number of people without solar energy to grow plants.
They CAN'T support themselves with what they can produce in the Underdark alone. It's why they raid. As much as they relish in the slaughter, it's a matter of survival as well.
Also, with the original comment about assuming drow birthrates are slow or sluggish, while that may be true for surface elves most of the drow books I've read mention large families. They have to be prolific BECAUSE so many die in war and because of their social structure (the noble families having their own little armies, etc.)
Within your own family (if noble), you have to be able to provide for cleric needs, mage needs, warriors to train and control the ranks, etc. I think I'd even read somewhere that Lolth blessed them with a higher birth rate because of this, but I could be making that up. (Sounds good though, huh?)
Drow society is like any other society ruled by fear and ignorance....
Asking an individual drow how his society hasn't been wiped out by in-fighting and assination is likely to rouse frustration (and perhaps hostility) simply because that drow would have a hard time answering you....
In a nation ruled by fear and ignorance, information is scarce. Finding out how drow society ticks would be a very dangerous undertaking.
Yeah, just try asking them about their war to bring religion to the surface dwellers and steal their neighbors' source of lumber, also known by the current high priestess as the "War on Adventurers" and you're lible to get labelled "undrow-like" and a threat to your enclave.
Let freedom ring on the ends of my teeth,
GGG
The ecology and food webs of D&D have never made sense.
Whaddya mean? I distinctly remember there being an orc with pie. Unfortunately he was killed while groping for milk while at the same time fending off adventurers. Got millk?
Mmm, pie.
GGG
Yes, well, the orc with the pie is a clear exception. :) Although, can you blame the adventurers for killing him? He had pie!
Uber-planar merchant: "So, what will you have? The +5 flaming vorpal God-Killer, or this slice of apple pie?"
Adventurer: "Uhm, eh... well.... The pie!"
Sorry for deviating from drow. Those pie-hating spelunker elves. >:(