I've got probably two or three sessions before my group gets to this, but I was wanting to start getting opinions on it now so I could be prepared.
So tell me fellow Dungeon forumites, how did you handle the doppelgangers' mirror maze?
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This is the next encounter for my party, so I'm fresh off a prep session and know exactly how I'm going to play the bad guys.
I hate the notion of Telakin sitting back on his throne and drumming his fingers while his minions are slaughtered in the maze. So for starters, the party's made lots of noise, so Telakin is on his guard by the time the party gets to the maze. My defense plan is based on the series of mirror doors that are lined up across the top of the maze, so that when they are opened, someone standing at the far left side of the maze can hit with ranged attack spells. That someone will be Telakin in Wizard form. I hid three of the doppleganger guards around corners so they will jump party members as they advance towards Telakin. The fourth doppleganger is waiting in the same 'room' as the door on the far right side of the maze. He will lead them toward the ambush by firing a xbow, then running away.
My main modification to the maze is the notion that the place where Telakin is standing has levers to control all the doors that appear in the line. So he should be able to open and close the doors as necessary to separate members of the party and block them from getting to him. There is also one last guard to provide him cover so he can escape once the party manages to force their way down the passage (or they have gone around via the side passages).
When Telakin flees, he will round the corner and open the secret door to the planning room (to fake the pursuit into thinking he went that way). He may also drop a Wall of Fire in his wake, just to give him time to get back to his throne room.
Once in the Throne Room, he can use Fireball to effect, shift to Barbarian form, and kick butt.
Of course something always goes wrong (usually my dice), and the party will probably eviscerate my attack plan half-way through execution. I guess that's why they call them heroes!
In theory, this encounter had a lot of possibilities. I knew I would have to seperate the group. This is made fairly simple as many mirrored doors slide effortlessly into place here and there.
I also had to abandon reality and focus on the tension that the players generate on their own accord: they KNOW that they will be duplicated by Dopplegangers, they just don't know WHEN.
Is that really my friend? Is it a Doppleganger?
Part of the abandonment of reality I had to concede is equiping the Dopplegangers with the same stuff as the duplicated PCs.
Ultimately, I had some fun with this and when it started not to be fun anymore, I moved the party along to the next encounter. Usually maze encounters don't work very well (stated as such earlier by Paizo staff members); this might have been one of the exceptions to the rule.
I did a few unusual things with this encounter, as I wanted to try and confuse the PCs and make it harder for them to tell who was who. First, I removed all of their regular minis and replaced them with numbered "generic" miniatures. The goal here was to prevent them from instantly recognizing the doppelgangers (who were also using the generic minis) just by looking at the board. I then proceeded to split up the party and created a little chaos.
By this point, however, the PCs had gotten smart regarding fighting doppelgangers and had some tactics prepared. They used code phrases and questions to distinguish friends from foes, and when they spotted a doppelganger, they used spells like faerie fire to "mark" him as an enemy for everyone. Finally, there were certain effects that the doppelgangers couldn't duplicate (the warlock's elderich blast, for example) that also helped identify real PCs.
So, because the PCs were well prepared, they had little trouble with the mirror maze fight, and it fell just a little flat.
By this point, however, the PCs had gotten smart regarding fighting doppelgangers and had some tactics prepared. They used code phrases and questions to distinguish friends from foes, and when they spotted a doppelganger, they used spells like faerie fire to "mark" him as an enemy for everyone. Finally, there were certain effects that the doppelgangers couldn't duplicate (the warlock's elderich blast, for example) that also helped identify real PCs.
A question here, wouldn't the doppelgangers be able to read the minds of their questioners to get the proper responses?
We use D&D Miniatures for all of the PCs, so I grabbed a double of the same mini and threw them out there as the group got divided. It only took a couple of rounds to figure out who was who, but it was a fun couple of rounds.
Like noted above, everyone knew that there were dopplegangers from the very begining. So the doppleganger double wasn't a shock. At all. "Oh, it'another me. Again." The group's druid wildshaped and used scent to figure out the doubles. It worked well.
But I felt that the mirror maze worked very well for its purpose, and was the most effective use of the dopplegangers in the adventure.
The group's druid wildshaped and used scent to figure out the doubles. It worked well.
Do the rules state that scent can automatically detect shapechangers?
Does a wildshaped, polymorphed, shapechanged, etc creature smell different than the real thing?
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I also used the idea of switching the player's minis in the Hall of Deception encounter.
I started out with minis that looked close to the one's they use, 'bound' and gagged on the floor (the party's rogue was an imposter by now). When the fight started, everyone had a good idea of which character was which figure, with the exception of the aforementioned rogue. Then I started switching the figs around, some of them more than once throughout the fight. I also tracked everyone's hit points for them, so they had a harder time telling if I was recording hits for the imposter or the character.
With those little confusing details added in, the betrayal of the player playing the rogue in the middle of the fight definitely dazed them a bit. At least enough for the barbarian player to look at me painfully each time she lopped somebody's head off.
"Well, does it change shape or not..."
ooooh! This is a useful thread for those of us who haven't gotten there yet. (June or July, maybe!) Thanks for sharing your DM tricks everyone.
The scent question is a very good one, and I doubt there is a definitive RAW answer. Arguments could be made either way. If shapechanging is something that has evolved to deceive certain kinds of predators or prey, one could surmise from the predator/prey's abilities whether shapechanging would have to include generating a convincing scent to be effective. But then, D&D doesn't presuppose a Darwinian evolution.
My take is this: Most polymorph/shapechange spells and special ability descriptions tend to separate physical qualities and characteristics, which change with the change in form, from purely mental characteristics, which do not. Since the smell of a creature presumably falls into the former category, I think my DMs ruling here would be, "looks like a human, smells like a human."
However, the doppelganger might have a subtly different smell than the individual human being imitated even if its shapechange ability confers a generally human smell (since most animals with keen scent can distinguish individual members of a species by their scent). If the druid in question has spent some time around his companions in wild shape form, he might have some memory of what they smell like as individuals, and thus might have a chance to make a spot vs. the doppelganger's disguise check, with some circumstance modifiers thrown in, to catch the subtly different aroma of the doppelganger.
Interested to hear other ideas about this rules question!
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ooooh! This is a useful thread for those of us who haven't gotten there yet. (June or July, maybe!) Thanks for sharing your DM tricks everyone.
The scent question is a very good one, and I doubt there is a definitive RAW answer. Arguments could be made either way. If shapechanging is something that has evolved to deceive certain kinds of predators or prey, one could surmise from the predator/prey's abilities whether shapechanging would have to include generating a convincing scent to be effective. But then, D&D doesn't presuppose a Darwinian evolution.
My take is this: Most polymorph/shapechange spells and special ability descriptions tend to separate physical qualities and characteristics, which change with the change in form, from purely mental characteristics, which do not. Since the smell of a creature presumably falls into the former category, I think my DMs ruling here would be, "looks like a human, smells like a human."
However, the doppelganger might have a subtly different smell than the individual human being imitated even if its shapechange ability confers a generally human smell (since most animals with keen scent can distinguish individual members of a species by their scent). If the druid in question has spent some time around his companions in wild shape form, he might have some memory of what they smell like as individuals, and thus might have a chance to make a spot vs. the doppelganger's disguise check, with some circumstance modifiers thrown in, to catch the subtly different aroma of the doppelganger.
Interested to hear other ideas about this rules question!
i'd kinda view it like when different women wear the same kind of purfume: it never smells exactly the same. so, even though they could wear the exact physical form, the doppleganger's scent wouldn't be exactly the same. now that wouldn't be the case with the greater doppleganger ability of consume identity, as for all intents and purposes they are that person, but their use of change shape would be the same.
I didn't run this as I had hopped... so it ended up being easier then it probably should have been.
The first thing I did was make sure that Telakin had plenty of warning. This meant that there were only 2 invisible dopplegangers wandering around the maze for the first few rounds. Telakin used this time wisely to cast plenty of spells on himself.
The second thing I tried to use against the players was the sliding mirror doors. However, the first time it happend the Rogue made her reflex save to jump through to the otherside with the Paladin who triggered it, and then proceeded to find the switch that would lower the door again. She then disabled the trap from going off.
Lastly I had the players attacked by an invisible doppleganger on one side, causing them to focus their melee attacks to one front, then I surprised them with another attack in the weaker rear with another invisible doppleganger. That caused some chaos for about 2 rounds... ultimately though they mowed past this entire encounter.
What I did not do, was use the dopplegangers ability to confuse the players by taking their shape. I didn't see a point since the doppleganger didn't have the same gear as the PC's.
A question here, wouldn't the doppelgangers be able to read the minds of their questioners to get the proper responses?
Yes, they absolutely could, if they had time. But it takes 3 rounds (and a failed Will save) for detect thoughts to pick up surface thoughts, and the PCs did not allow them that much time to answer.
Do the rules state that scent can automatically detect shapechangers?Does a wildshaped, polymorphed, shapechanged, etc creature smell different than the real thing?
The question is moot (in this case) since by the RAW druids don't get scent (or low-light vision, or any other special quality) of the animals they wild shape into.
As for the overall question, I guess it would depend on the circumstances. I agree there is not really a definitive answer in the rules. I would probably say that any effect that actually physically changes your shape would allow you to mimic scent as well, but since a creature's scent is composed not only of their own personal reek, but also of the smell of their gear, their soap, where they have been, and so on, it would probably be possible to tell if someone was trying to masquerade as a close friend. It would not be possible to tell if a person you did not know very well was, in fact, a doppelganger, just by scent.
I thought about this for quite awhile, as the PC in on the ruse has an animal with them most of the time (not saying if it's a companion, familiar, or mount, just in case one of them finds this thread). I decided to go with the doppleganger's shapechanging to mimic scent as well--any creature with scent will have to make an opposed roll just like anyone else. In the case of the doppelganger not having the same equipment, I'd modify the DC.
Plus, I think it'd be pretty damn funny seeing a druid's tiger so confused.
I still don't get how anybody was able to use the mirror maze to confuse the PCs. If PC 1 and PC 2 are walking down the corridor and they get separated, and PC 1 says, "I'm gonna walk down this corridor to the east," and then PC 2 sees a duplicate of PC 1 coming to him from the south, isn't he going to know it's a doppleganger? There just doesn't seem to be any way (aside from putting each player in different rooms, and going from room to room asking each one what their actions are each round) to do this without the players knowing exactly who's a Doppleganger and who isn't. Equipment doesn't matter- who cares if the doppleganger is wearing the exact same gear as PC 1, if PC 2's player knows that PC 1 is in a completely different area?
Ultima, your quandry of using the maze and having characters on the mapboard would restrict you from getting the best from this encounter, imo.
Early in this encounter, STOP using the battleboard/map (whatever you use to track people) and go old school - that is, just describe the activities. walls and doors are moving, people get seperated. It doesn't really matter where they go, just that they wander aimlessly until they (the PCs) realize that they are vulnerable.
Isn't it fun being vulnerable?
Then you have the PCs encounter each other again. Let the PCs talk to each other. Oops! That wasn't really a PC! Inititiative! Or, the PC is back with the party, and they encounter the same PC. Have the PC answer for both characters. Even HE doesnt know who he is!
Alternatively, if you have no spare room and want to use mapboards, try the following--
Have the party and the separated PC(s) pass notes to you about which direction they're going and run it like a play by post--track PC and doppelganger movements round by round behind the DM screen. Don't use cardinal directions, unless the PCs have a means to ascertain them.
If you want to display things on a mapboard, try using separate tact-tiles or ends of a battlemat. Screen each part of the party's view from each other with a spare DM screen or taped together manila folders. Use erasable markers to delete areas of the maze that are no longer in view to each party (like a fog of war effect in Warcraft), unless they take time to map carefully, in which case they only get to move their speed per minute instead of per round, while their lost comrade is possibly being ambushed by doppelgangers.
At this point in the module, it's DM's call whether another doppelganger substitution would be fun and challenging or not, but one could certainly try it. It might be hard to implement without sending the rest of the party into the other room, though.