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*The Battle of Blackwall*
I’ve been reading the threads on the initial Lizardfolk encounters which open Encounter at Blackwall Keep.
The prevailing opinion is that the PCs will mow through these encounters like they are not even there if the battles are run as suggested. Knowing my party of players, I concur.
While I agree with James that kicking booty is fun, the way these encounters are set up – it’s not even going to be remotely entertaining for my group. I know my players well – and I challenge them in our sessions – that’s what they want. Five of the six players have been playing since the 70s and our sessions have a definite wargamey tactical slant to them. My guys know their stuff and their unit tactics are superior at the high end of tactical mastery of 3.5e.
By way of example, the last session was dominated by the final battle in Three Faces of Evil. Instead of having the party infiltrate the Maze as written, because Galluk Kur had escaped the Caves of Erythnul alive, I had the fully rested party of five PCs hit the Dark Cathedral defended by ALL of the waiting minions of Vecna + Galluk Kur, buffed and prepared.
That was 16 Kenku mooks, the 2 dire weasels, the Kenku Captain and Lieutenant (whose Necklace of Fireballs and Quall’s Tokens, respectively were *huge* resources), The Faceless One, his acolytes and Galluk Kur. All of the high level guys were on the catwalk above the pool buffed and out of harm’s way.
That was an EL11 and the party survived it after a very tough fight (necklace of missles was almost a show stopper but they made it through).
Compared to *that* battle, against a current party of 6 (Warmage, Fighter in Theldrick’s +1 Plate late w/ shield at AC23), Psychic Warrior, Cleric, Druid and Paladin, all of 5th level) these Lizardfolk don’t stand a prayer. The Lizards don’t have *any* of the summoning, fireball, lightning, web, and magic missile resources that the forces of Vecna did. They might as well be newborn newts.
So I’m upping the number of attackers. We’ll have 48 Lizardfolk CR1, and 2 Lieutenants CR3, A druid CR4 with entangle and 1 captain buffed to C6. That is supposedly an EL12.
They will besiege the Keep and my players will have to deal with them all at once, at the same time, as best they can. My party will be given a scroll of one fireball (CL8) by a poisoned Allustan who will charge the party with the destruction of the Lizardfolk vanguard while he teleports home.
With the PCs heroically coming to the rescue and attacking as the Lizardfolk are about to do in the Keep’s soldiers (play sound horns_of_the_Rohirrim.wav) I expect this “Battle of Blackwall” will have a far more satisfying *bang*.
I’ll let you know how it goes. Personally, I don’t think the Lizardfolk stand a prayer.
I seriously don't know how your group could have made it throught that encounter. The FO and Acolytes all cast Web, so 5 saves...they are bound to at least miss one. Then a 5d6 Fireball plus the 2d6 from the web burning...not to mention the five Webs.
I'm getting ready for the Keep as well. I plan on doing some things to make the battle a little more tense:
1) Tell the players that the XP for this encounter depends heavily on the number of keep soldiers that survive. This will force the PCs to go on the offensive, rather than sit back and attack from range/fight defensively, etc.
2) Add a couple dragonkin as lieutenants. They will initially be strafing the tower, but then come into the attack on the PCs.
3) Implement the rule discussed on these boards giving each additional melee participant a cumulative +1 to hit vs. the same target.
My guys aren't heavy min-maxers, so their area effect spells are very limited and their melee types aren't very tough (could explain their high fatality rate).
You could always have a 'random' encounter just prior to arrival as well, just to deplete a few resources.
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I seriously don't know how your group could have made it throught that encounter. The FO and Acolytes all cast Web, so 5 saves...they are bound to at least miss one. Then a 5d6 Fireball plus the 2d6 from the web burning...not to mention the five Webs.
They did cast webs - but not right off when their own troops were down there as well.
The webs did immobolize 2 of the five party members. But it was not enough. The fireballs from the necklace were expended before the webs went off to keep the party back from gaining access to the ramp.
(How do they survive? Enlarged Warmage with Fists of Stone, Enlarged Psychic Warrior with DR and a fighter who at AC23 just does not get hit very easily who deals out damage like no tomorrow).
Not saying it was not touch and go. Two got dropped into the negs and a TPK was a real possibility. But they survived (my players are very good at the tactical part of the game).
I should add that Galluk Kur was never defeated and barely scratched. As part of the plot - he leapt into the pool with TFO's body to commit suicide and summon the Ebon Aspect.
The sight of Galluk Kur leaping as he screamed to some dark god into the pool and the last acolyte immediately falling to his knees and crying out in divine ecstasy was enough to cause the party to STOP right there and flee the Dark Cathedral. (Except the rogue who stayed behind to kill the last acolyte, loot and "see what happened". He died when the Aspect caught him as he fled up the mine shaft.
The Aspect itself was slain as it emerged at the top of the shaft between the other 4 party members.
I posted a thread on this a month back called "Galluk Kur...Lives!!"
I ran this fight a couple of weeks ago. I too had read the same posts as you. Here's what I did...
First I had the Orc attack from the wondering monster table happen in the morning... By itself it wasn't much, but it did force the Wizard to use his Haste spell. The orcs attacked the party while they were mounted on horses... regular horses that panic in battle.
Then the PCs reached the keep. It was under siege. Four groups were advancing on the keep -- ten Lizardmen to the front, ten to the back. The PCs charged into battle. The wizard let off his big daddy spells. A 5D6 fireball didn't outright kill those that made their saves. But still the battle ended pretty quickly and the PCs felt like heroes. I had half the Lizardmen retreat back into the swamp.
Then the PCs got the news that Marzena had been captured only hours earlier. I had foreshadowed a few things several sessions previously... Marzena was Allustan's apprentice prior to the PC Wizard, Allustan had been telling the PC wizard that he is in regular correspondence with Marzena. I even gave the PC wizard a picture of Marzena way in advance and told him that he always suspected that she might have feelings for him... then the last letter to Allustan hinted of terrible things in the Marsh... things that she couldn't commit to paper.
Needless to say, when the PCs heard that she had been captured, they raced into the Marsh to rescue her. I figured that would be the case, and had the Huge Spider encounter ready to go for that evening. It ended up biting the Wizard and knocked his strength down to 1.
After the spider was killed, the PCs were starting to question what they were doing... etc.
So, all in all, I looked at the battle for Blackwall Keep as just a step in the progression and not the penultimate battle... and felt that in this sense, it was perfect.
Ok Steel_Wind the first time I read your post I thought your group had a walk in the park encounter...and I found that very weird. But you saying it was tough seems more plausible.
Like Steel Wind, I also had a party of six and very tactically-minded, so I also chose to use about 48 Lizardfolk 'regulars' and some specials. However, for added flavor, I chose to use Blackscale and Poison Dusk Lizardfolk from (MM3), which worked out very well. The (4) Blackscales were useful 'siege tanks' and drew all of the attention of the PCs archer-ranger, while the half-dozen Poison Dusk snipers wreaked havoc on the militia bowmen and even made it up to the parapet, pinning down the PC cleric.
As for leaders, I used 'Red-Eye' from the online supplement as King Shukak's brother and overall leader of the siege, replacing his returning trident with a masterwork one. For his lieutenant, I used the lizardfolk 'Scaled Horror' NPC from (SS)
who made an excellent infiltrator but was not too overpowering.
The players enjoyed the siege immensely but did not call it easy...
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This is still a ways off for my group (they are in between Whispering Cairn and Three Faces at the moment). However, I have already set the wheels in place by having Marzena known to the group as well as Allustan (who is the Master of the party Wizard). As such, the PCs will be heading down here on their own to talk with Marzena about what she knows and has found.
To make the battle more interesting, I am also looking to up the number and type of Lizardfolk. However, in doing this and to keep emphasis upon the seige aspect, I think you have to up the tower forces too; enough so the resultant seige is plausible (and actually looks like the one in the picture). A pair of operational ballista on top of the tower would be enough to keep the Lizardfolk at a distance as they plan how to attack the Keep.
I'm looking for the PCs role to be one where they thin the widespread ranks of Lizardfolk before retreating to safety to avoid the whole of the Lizardfolk resources being turned against them. Then with assistance from the Tower, a final climactic and direct battle would ensue as the Lizardfolk finally broach the Keep, the PCs being the pivotal element of whether the Keep survives or is doomed.
I'll work out closer to the time how powerful the Lizardfolk forces should be. I expect my five PCs to be 5th level by then and they're pretty good with their tactics.
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
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Ran it as above. 48 Lizardman mooks, 2 lieutenants, 4th level Druid (gave her entangle) and the Leader I had boosted to 6th level.
I had Alustan give the party an CL8 Fireball scroll before teleporting out.
Party arrived to find the keep encircled and the Lizardfolk trying to storm it.
The party attacked with the Fireball and the Warmage started up with Hail of Stones left right and centre at range. Rest of party advanced and used missile fire.
Results:
Party destroyed aboput 20 lizardfolk before a detachment of 8 mooks, 1 lieutenant, the Captain, and the druid (who was well concealed) broke from the attack on the Keep to charge the party.
Party vanguard was entangled but got out.
28 Lizards destroyed, Captain slain, druid and attackers fled. Total damage sustained by party members:
Three hit points taken by Cleric of St. Cuthbert (AC20)
Total tactical victory.
Were I to do this again, I would reduce the Lizards to 30 and increase their hit dice by 2 for the mooks and made the fireball scroll a CL5. This probably would not have altered the outcome much at all, but would have been a more satisfying fight.
11 hit points for the mooks after the 3FoE was a cake-walk. 19-22 hits for these guys with a Bab of +4 or 5 would have at least made it interesting.
As it stood, the above forces of 48 plus higher level officers was a supposed EL12.
As if. Not even close. It was a paper tiger. The +2 bab, AC 15, HP 11 lizardfolk are far too fragile against a 5th level party.
The prevailing opinion is that the PCs will mow through these encounters like they are not even there if the battles are run as suggested. Knowing my party of players, I concur.
By way of example, the last session was dominated by the final battle in Three Faces of Evil. Instead of having the party infiltrate the Maze as written, because Galluk Kur had escaped the Caves of Erythnul alive, I had the fully rested party of five PCs hit the Dark Cathedral defended by ALL of the waiting minions of Vecna + Galluk Kur, buffed and prepared.
I haven't run the Blackwall Keep encounter, but I would expect that the Labyrinth of Vecna inhabitants to be weaker if forced into a straight-up fight. The kenku are rogues who rely on their crossbows and sneak attack damage. Of course they are going to get mowed down by a typical adventuring company in a fair fight. The Faceless One's best tactics are to keep a Huge summoned creature between himself and his enemies. He can do that a lot better in his own quarters than in the Dark Cathedral. The Vecnans give up the advantage of terrain (secret doors, grasping pillars, maddening walls) if they come out of the Labyrinth.
In my experience, the adventuring party was whittled away by the kenku, the weasels, the allip, and the apprentices before they reach the Faceless One. Your mileage may vary.
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While it is true the power of the Kenku mooks is reduced, the power of the Kenku commanders who can wield the Necklace of Missiles and the Quall's tokens is increased; indeed, the power of the Necklace is difficult to overstate under these circumstances.
As well, you need to look at the map again; the protection afforded to the Faceless One, his apprentices and Gallak Kur by being up on the catwalk above the pool is far greater than the maze. The Faceless One can deal with normal missles easily and render them ineffective. They have a clear range of fire and there is only one way up to get at them - and they see you coming the whole way. One web spell and you aren't getting up there anytime soon with any ease.
Sorry - you need to run this one before you suggest a whittling series of encounters in the maze was more of a threat than a stand up fight vs everyone all at once in the Dark Cathedral. It was a horrendously nasty fight which was one was roll away from a TPK on three occasions during the battle. The EL of the encounter was about 12.
Aginst a party of 3 5th levels and 2 4th levels - the advice on that encounter CR is simple to read: "Deadly - Run Away!"