XJ220 |
I saw a Half Doppleganger template in one of my Dragons but I'm not sure which one. The idea was interesting but the ECL modifiers were high like 3 or 4 for some of the templates in that article. good luck in finding that Dragon I think it might have been the spies issue.
I have the spies issue, and looked everywhere and didnt find it. Someone said it was in #313, but i dont have that one, and cant find it anywhere.
captramses |
Unfortunatly the answer to this question is not as easy as it sounds. The truth of the matter is the players and GM. If the players and DM are creative then no matter the Character combination the players are bound to get through most situations that the DM creates as long as they work together. I personally have seen some group combinations that consisted of mostly magic users who I thought for sure were not going to make it to Level 3 pull some of the most amazing creativity I have ever seen and survived some of the most dangerous scenarios I could manage to retire their characters at 20th level.
Now the flip side of that is the group who were the most well balanced characters but could not work well enough together to open a paper bag...Their deaths was boring to say the least.
In conclusion it is the willingness of the players to work together and the willingness of the GM to force that creativity and that comradship.
Tatterdemalion |
The last post was correct -- the perfect party is a clever one.
That said, the DM will usually have a big job in front of him/her trying to spare the lives of a group that lacks either front-line fighters or arcane spellcasters.
The core classes are just that -- core to the structure and assumptions of the game. There are a few vital tasks that must be performed:
1) beat things up
2) cast powerful spells
3) heal people
Perhaps slightly less indispensible:
5) pick locks/disable traps
6) turn undead
I'm sure I've missed something. For what it's worth, I wish diplomacy had evolved as a fundamental need of the game, but it hasn't (though most good scenarios will require some).
My two cents :)
Jack
captramses |
That said, the DM will usually have a big job in front of him/her trying to spare the lives of a group that lacks either front-line fighters or arcane spellcasters.The core classes are just that -- core to the structure and assumptions of the game. There are a few vital tasks that must be performed:
1) beat things up
2) cast powerful spells
3) heal peoplePerhaps slightly less indispensible:
5) pick locks/disable traps
6) turn undeadI'm sure I've missed something. For what it's worth, I wish diplomacy had evolved as a fundamental need of the game, but it hasn't (though most good scenarios will require some).
My two cents :)
Jack
I can't disagree more. If this were true then the New Rouge would be locked into a certain characters set which they are not. In fact I have seen and played in campaigns where the characters were all rouges who specialized in different areas and they lasted despite the best efforts of the GM.
Again it is not about the characters as it is about the players behind the characters.
Tatterdemalion |
some stuff
I can't disagree more.... Again it is not about the characters as it is about the players behind the characters.
I agree with captramses more than it sounds, but (as an example) a party in Age of Worms that lacks front-line fighter types will likely die gruesome deaths.
A party of rogues would die quickly in almost any scenario I can think of.
Regards,
Jack
captramses |
Tatterdemalion wrote:some stuffcaptramses wrote:I can't disagree more.... Again it is not about the characters as it is about the players behind the characters....a party in Age of Worms that lacks front-line fighter types will likely die gruesome deaths.
A party of rogues would die quickly in almost any scenario I can think of.
Regards,
Jack
I know nothing of this 'Age of Worms.' that you keep mentioning however I can say for sure that Rouges who vary in specializations can and have survived everything that can be thrown at them.
Adam Daigle Director of Narrative |
I've played parties of rogues before and have pulled it off nicely. If it were at all possible to physically/geographically do I would get two or three of my regular players and let any DM throw what they can at us. You don't need to beat stuff up if you can move past it stealthily, casting spells and healing can be regulated to items, what you need is smarts and a skill set to enable said cleverness.
Jeremy Mac Donald |
I've played parties of rogues before and have pulled it off nicely. If it were at all possible to physically/geographically do I would get two or three of my regular players and let any DM throw what they can at us. You don't need to beat stuff up if you can move past it stealthily, casting spells and healing can be regulated to items, what you need is smarts and a skill set to enable said cleverness.
Sometimes you have no choice but to beat stuff up. In Age of Worms your going to get to the final encounter in Whispering Cairne and you must fight the Wind Dukes. There is pretty much no provision for sneaking by them as you'll have given away your presence opening the door. At that point your already forced to roll initiative and are stuck in combat with an encounter that brutalized a large number of groups that played it.
These guys are elementals - immune to sneak attacks. They are going to close with a bunch of thieves and slaughter them with their sonic attack ability but mainly with their basic long swords in each hand. They fly and have a move of 80' so I don't think trying to run away will avail on of much - its just free opportunity attacks in which to skewer one of the rogues.
Its the kind of straight up encounter which is going to be tough on any group - a party that gets through probably threw caution to the winds. Meat shield goes toe to toe - even the best fighter has a life expectancy of only two or three rounds against these guys so a cleric with as much healing as possible is almost certainly needed - summoned creatures would really help as well. The mage should start with his most powerful spells and simply work his way down holding nothing back best spell remaining is the spell cast every round - even with with cleric healing every round these guys have to die ASAP no third level party can long stand against the kind of damage they will do with those long swords - really the wizard should not even be going for spells in his spell book except as a last resort - found scrolls with spells more powerful then he can normally use is really the kind of thing thats needed here. This is the kind of encounter were your average adventuring party needs to quickly realize that its time to use all their one use magic items as quickly as possible - the fighter will last longer if she has drunk the Bears Endurance potion and the Potion of Cats Grace, The mage should use that Fireball Scroll that he found etc.
I just can't see how a party of nothing but rogues can manage such an encounter - they will just be chopped up – what makes rogues good is useless here.
While these sorts of encounters don't abound in Age of Worms they certainly are not unheard of either. In the Arena battles your not going to be able to sneak – good flanking attacks will be possible but that alone is probably not enough.
I know from DMing that if I run a bunch of rogues against my player characters and the rogues are not attacking from ambush or can't use hit and run attacks they pretty much just get ripped apart by the Barbarian etc. Not a high enough AC and not enough Hps.
bshugg |
I always felt you could skip on the rogue if you had enough healing to keep everyone at max. That is unless you have actual "kill you dead in one shot" traps lying around. Theres some pretty crazy stuff you can do with the optional books, but just using the PHB and DMG:
1. Human barb 1/Ranger X (extra HP, rage and speed is solid)
2. Human Paladin (to utilize the tank stuff found, pop traps due to high saves and diplomacize)
3. Human Cleric (Combat focused)
4. Human Diviner (probably the most powerful arcane class in a campaign. Diviners only lose 1 school of casting Necro to gain the bonus spells. Take all offense spells beyond that)
5. Human Cleric (Magic domain to utilize redundant arcane scrolls)
If your going long term I would have one of the clerics go for Theurge,
Hagen |
I love rogues. I know an all-rogue campaign can easily be successful if the adventures are tailored for them. But I have to agree that they would have a difficult time with typical adventures. Even if a bunch of them have max-out Use Magic Device, certain creature types that are immune to sneak attacks (Undead, Constructs, Elementals) would eventually take them out.
Hagen |
I know nothing of this 'Age of Worms.' that you keep mentioning...
Age of Worms is the current adventure path in Dungeon. It consists of 12 adventures taking PC's from level 1 to approximately 20. Although set in Greyhawk, there are conversion notes to easily set it into Forgotten Realms or Eberron. This adventure path is somewhat epic in scale. The players' failure could very well mean the end of the world. Although the first two adventures are a bit lethal, it has a great storyline and the adventures are a lot of fun. I would hazard to say that they are the best adventures I've seen in the 16 years I've been playing D&D.
Darkmeer |
My perfect party doesn't exist when I DM. Usually one player or another makes something anti-hero-ish, thus slowing things down for those of them that are heroes.
If I were to pick something out:
Warrior type (Ranger is good), Rogue-Type (rogue or Scout), Arcane Caster (Psion, Wizard, sorcerer, or even Warlock), and of course Divine caster (Cleric or Druid, preferably Cleric).
I think that I have unrealistic hopes. I think that any combination of at least 3 characters can be a very successful adventuring company.
/d
Jeremy Mac Donald |
If your going long term I would have one of the clerics go for Theurge,
My feeling is that Mystic Theurge (as well as Cerbermancer etc.), while cool are not as impressive as one might think. The fact that they can only use one spell a round really puts a damper on them - they have spells coming out of their ears but most of them won't usually get uses as the party will want to rest when the base arcane or divine caster has used up most of his higher level stuff - though putting half ones spells into utility type stuff like Find Secret Doors will make this less of an issue.
Tatterdemalion |
...a party in Age of Worms that lacks front-line fighter types will likely die gruesome deaths.
A party of rogues would die quickly in almost any scenario I can think of.
I know nothing of this 'Age of Worms.' that you keep mentioning however I can say for sure that Rouges who vary in specializations can and have survived everything that can be thrown at them.
Now I'm not sure how to respond :/
I've never played (or seen) a scenario that rogues alone might have survived. What happens when four rogues are surprised and cornered by four fighters?
Regards again :)
Jack
James Keegan |
1 Human Warrior
1 Human Adept
1 Human Expert
1 Human Aristocrat
1 Human Commoner
A perfectly well-rounded group if I've ever seen one. The expert can fix wagon wheels, make barrels and use those +1 woodcarving sets that would normally be tossed to the monk in the party, just because it would weigh down all the other characters. Never tackle Oregon Trail without one. The warrior is great at standing on the beaten path to town and inquiring,"Oy! Ye wouldn'happen to be a group a NE'ER-DO-WELLS, aye?!" The adept is great for applying the heal skill or, if you're really lucky, cure light wounds, to the expert's sore thumb or commoner's rash. The aristocrat is amazingly skilled at looking down on all the other characters, complaining about dust on his new dublet and occasionally slapping people with gloves and getting into duels that only the warrior can extract him from. The commoner can grow wheat and rye, and goshdarn if that single simple weapon proficiency (usually focused on the stick, but every now and then they switch it up and learn hoe) doesn't come in handy all the time.
Great Green God |
Thor, well, I mean it hurths wrote:I was just wondering.
What would be the perfect party to DM for? (five people only).
My ideal party to DM for:
1 chips & salsa-bringer
1 veggie tray-bringer
1 coffee-bringer
1 chocolate goody-bringer
1 antacid-bringerPlus little gifts for the DM like minis or markers or post-its are always a plus.
M@
Close. Now if they were all twenty-something hotties in skimpy beach attire and one of them was DJ - that would be my ideal party.
I'll be beck next Tuesday, I think.
The Great Green Gigilo