I've recently been running "The Hall of Harsh Reflections" with my Friday night group, and, unfortunately, it suffers from that fault of some modern map-makers: 5 foot wide corridors.
Although there is some justification for saying they're more realistic, in actual play they just mean that some of the party can't do anything.
This is made more prominent in any group - such as mine - that has six players. If there is more than one PC that has focused on melee, then those PCs have to sit out the combat.
An exception to this was in Mike Mearls "Three Faces of Evil" game, where the many intersecting passages in the Vecna maze allowed more freedom of movement.
Can we please stop having maps with 5' wide corridors?
Cheers,
Merric Blackman
I'm thinking that the five foot corridor makes sense for a couple of reasons:
1.) cost - with the price of dwarven worked stone and manual labor a cult just starting out can't afford larger corridors
2.) defense - this same new cult needs to be able to defend itself and the five foot wide corridor keeps the heroes in single file for lightning bolts, murder holes and any number of traps.
3.) challenge for the party - the five foot corridor makes adventuring parties smarter. They begin to respond by taking feats such as Skill Focus: Tumble, and Precise Shot. Spellcasters begin to add to the melees by buffing the tanks that march at the vanguard.
I agree with Merric here... a few 5 foot wide corridors are okay, but there should be 10 foot wide corridors as well, as they make it easier to get more of the PCs involved with the action.
Oh, come on... The narrow corridors are MEANT to make the PCs' lives difficult. "Um, could you make these adventures a little more, uh, 'PC friendly'?" Yeah, sure.
When your PCs have enough clout to build their own underground stronghold, they can have their 10' wide corridors. That will make it easier for drow, hobgoblins, orcs, githyanki, demons, devils, or whatever to storm in and sword everyone. ;-)
The 5' wide corridors don't make the adventure more difficult; they exclude players from the game. This is a problem.
If you have two melee-based PCs (many groups may have more), then only one can actually do what they've been built for.
The only reason 10' wide corridors even appeared anywhere was because the 1sq = 10' was the old AD&D/D&D 1st edition standard.
If you've ever been to a real medieval castle or its corresponding dungeon, you're lucky to get a 3' corridor...think about it.....a corridor as wide as the average room in a house? Why would anyone put that in as a regular corridor except in passages where cargo is being delivered?
5' corridors are fine by me...PC's will just have to get over it and use better tactics. They're in someone else's home after all....
Hell, in real old world medieval towers they used to design the staircases so that right handed defenders could swing downwards easily, while attackers could not stab upwards easily unless they were left-handed. Plus, the stairs were like 2' wide.....
I know....it's a fantasy game....those darn trolls and orcs are just so damn inconsiderate for only letting one fighter get at them at a time.....
The 5' wide corridors don't make the adventure more difficult; they exclude players from the game. This is a problem.
If you have two melee-based PCs (many groups may have more), then only one can actually do what they've been built for.
Unless, of course, the party happens to be attacked from both directions at the same time... *cough* hint, hint *cough*
Unless, of course, the party happens to be attacked from both directions at the same time... *cough* hint, hint *cough*The 5' wide corridors don't make the adventure more difficult; they exclude players from the game. This is a problem.
If you have two melee-based PCs (many groups may have more), then only one can actually do what they've been built for.
That's what made the Vecna maze in TFE work - multiple avenues of approach, and enemies approaching from both ways. It was great fun.
However, I've seen too many maps of late that are 5' corridors with monsters only able to attack from one direction (especially when the dungeon is linear). A 5' corridor that exits into a bigger room can also cause problems if a melee monster wins initiative. Suddenly the way into the room is blocked off, and the back-up fighter and clerics in the party are going "what do we do?"
Casting buffing spells isn't that interesting. It palls rapidly when combat after combat is in these 5' corridors. Using missile weapons when you're firing into combat and there is cover and you don't have precise shot (as many PCs do not) is frustrating.
In theory a rogue can tumble into the room, but that's often a recipe for disaster. Apart from needing a DC 25+ Tumble check, suddenly the rogue is on his own against whatever other monsters are in there. That's not good.
Cheers!
oh well, tell your players to deal with it. the monsters build their homes for defense, period. why allow a group of adventurers the chance to get all their attacks in? it makes perfect sense to have only one avenue of defense. does anyone remember the spartans at thermopylae? hello? perfect defense against the odds of numbers, filter your enemy through a small gap and take them on a little at a time. also, that's what the bull rushing and overrun tactics are for. push into a larger area to let the other players get in and start adding to the fun. i don't see a problem here, just a lack of imagination.
If your players want to make the best of 5' passages and gain the upper hand, your fighters need to take risks. That means using Overrun or Bull Rush.
Too many players get worked up about inviting attacks of opportunity to try these tactics. However, if you think about the advantages gained they can outweigh the risks.
For instance, an overrun foe is potentially flanked in a 5' passage. Okay, maybe so is the overrunee but he can be dealing with whatever else is in the corridor, whilst his allies deal with the flanked enemy.
Bull Rush can get the enemies pushed into areas advantageous to you, be they corners so that their reach weapons are useless or squares that offer other possiblities.
I guess what I'm trying to say is get your players to think outside of the box. There are plenty of options other than queuing up to take a pop at the bad guy.
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...Although there is some justification for saying they're more realistic, in actual play they just mean that some of the party can't do anything.
This is made more prominent in any group - such as mine - that has six players. If there is more than one PC that has focused on melee, then those PCs have to sit out the combat.
...
I once had a player who was complaining about exactly this problem. I told him, that in real castles corridors were sometime smaller and not that high. Anyway, he invented a close-quarter fighting feat, which allowed him to "share" a square with an ally in order to fight the enemy in such an environment. I can't remember the prereq's, but I am sure he still has it in his notes somewhere.
I didn't allow it, though, but maybe you're happy with that. If you like, I ask my player for the notes on this feat...
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5' corridors are just fine with me.
Frontline tanks can switch with fine tuned tag-team tactics (a reach weapon can do wonders!), second line supporters will have some difficult times firing their missile/throw weapons, and magic users are bound to have a more varied spell selection other than the boring "magic artillery" clichè.
Moreover, enemies will have to face almost the same number of problems...
I still think that it makes the party fight smarter. This means that the PC's must use other tactics if they want to get everyone involved.
Tactical retreat to a more advantageous position.
First tank attacks, takes 5 foot step back. Second tank takes 5 foot step forward and attacks - repeat. To really make this work you'd have to use delayed actions and refocus to get the best initiative.
Use reach weapons.
Fire into melee.
Add magic and you've got all sorts of solutions:
Slippers of spider climb allow a tank to run up the walls.
Dimension door and teleport can allow you to surround the enemy quickly.
Up to 2 Small and/or Medium characters can fit in a single square. However, this squeezing results in a -2 penalty to attacks and AC.
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I agree with F2K, I have a bedroom in my house that is 7'x12'. A little on the small side but I can't imagine creatures saying "wow, lets do more than 2X the work (including more structural support) so that its easier for an army/party to storm our home. Maybe, as mentioned above, a few corridors could be 10' wide to accomodate wagons and such for supply delivery, but come on, a hallway in the living quarters section as wide as a modern day roadway lane! Why not let the party train their horses for underground travel and let em' ride through the dungeon. Seems pretty ridiculous that I could drive my SUV down a dungeon hallway. I think 5' hallways are actually too big also. the halls in a house are on average around 3'6" wide. The 5' I would let slide because there is alot more people passing in the hallways so they would need the extra room to bypass each other. Your group needs to rethink their fighting techniques. The feats allow several options for close-quarters fighting and if they don't want to use them, then tough luck. Some wizards choose to not know lightning or fireball, when up against conditions where those are needed they probably regret their decisions. Make them regret their decisions and you will train your players to be better players.
my2
FH
I think it is time for a DM/Player chat. Sounds like y'all need to become more creative in your combats.
Peace and smiles :)
j.
I still think that it makes the party fight smarter. This means that the PC's must use other tactics if they want to get everyone involved.
Tactical retreat to a more advantageous position.
Well, even if there are more than 5' corridors, the monsters would be mad to follow them.
First tank attacks, takes 5 foot step back. Second tank takes 5 foot step forward and attacks - repeat. To really make this work you'd have to use delayed actions and refocus to get the best initiative.
I'm sorry?
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Use reach weapons.
Possible. -4 to hit, but possible.
Fire into melee.
-8 to hit vs good AC. (Not everyone can have Precise Shot)
Use magic
Nice idea. At low levels, you're rather limited in what magic you can use, however.
Damn, where's the box of Kleenex - there's a lot of cryin going on in this thread...
The PCs don't like being wedged into a 5' corridor under combat? Waaah! Then they should retire from adventuring and take up being Gladiators. There's room all around for them, there.
If the narrow corridor is cramping the party's actions, then it's working EXACTLY as the villains want it to. Why would they want to be accomodating?
Also, as mentioned before, it's a matter of practicality and cost; some villains just don't have the resources or labor to build grand hallways and cavernous rooms so that the party has lots of space to spread out and attack from all sides.
And... I run between eight and twelve players in my group - trust me, they adjust and handle the situations as they come; fly helps a lot, as well as some well-rolled tumble checks...others cast defensive and buff spells while others simply wait in the back and guard the rear, waiting a turn to relieve the front line guy...
...and no one cries over it.
M
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Marc's group is handling the situation as it should be handled. If you want large open spaces to fight, stay out of the dungeons! Wilderness encounters can be fun. Sounds like either you or the players will probably complain about all those dang trees gettin' in the way though. 10' wide corridors are not realistic. Even in a fantasy world, unless the builders are of large size, than I could even see 15' wide corridors being the "norm", but otherwise....Deal. 5' is more than resonable in a typical dungeon. Quit your b##chin'.
FH
Well, even if there are more than 5' corridors, the monsters would be mad to follow them.
If they've got animal intelligence they're going to follow the party, if not then they're using the same tactical mindset that the party is: use the environment to their advantage. And as it's their hidey-hole it's their environment.
First tank attacks, takes 5 foot step back. Second tank takes 5 foot step forward and attacks - repeat. To really make this work you'd have to use delayed actions and refocus to get the best initiative.
I'm sorry?
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Why not? They're friends and allies can share space as well as move through each others' spaces.
It's already been pointed out that two tanks could fight side by side with each other - with a penalty.
Use reach weapons.
Possible. -4 to hit, but possible.
With the aid another feat hitting an AC 10 is pretty easy to help your compatriot, even with a -4.
Fire into melee.
-8 to hit vs good AC. (Not everyone can have Precise Shot)
True. But if they want to be effective in 5' corridors it might make sense. I've never been a fan of players that give me a list of feats that they're going to take for the next 20 levels. But if they're constantly getting frustrated with being ineffective in certain combats then perhaps they'll learn to be more effective.
Use magic
Nice idea. At low levels, you're rather limited in what magic you can use, however.
Well, Magic Missle hits everything in sight, regardless of cover. Sleep spells make combat a lot easier, even a Lightning Bolt is available at 5th level.
You first said that you wanted to have more PC's involved in combat. We've offered you some options to get everyone involved. Now it sounds like you want more of your tanks to be brought to bear against the enemy. This is different than having everyone involved.
Tanks: Frontline
Arcane casters: Buff the tank(s), Protect the party, bolster through song, send familiars to scout ahead
Divine casters: Buff the tank(s), heal the tank(s), protect the party, turn undead, send animal companions to scout ahead
Rogues: Tumble into flanking position, ranged attacks, guard the back
All of these are important roles to play in any combat. Not to mention everyone next to the frontlines can aid another with reach weapons.
Why not?First tank attacks, takes 5 foot step back. Second tank takes 5 foot step forward and attacks - repeat. To really make this work you'd have to use delayed actions and refocus to get the best initiative.
I'm sorry?
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Probably because the rules say so.
Ending Your Movement: You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.
You can move through a friendly square, but you can't end your movement in an occupied square.
Probably because the rules say so.Ending Your Movement: You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.You can move through a friendly square, but you can't end your movement in an occupied square.
Perhaps not, but with a little creative thinking, it's still possible to have 2 melee guys attack in a five-foot corridor (although only one of them will get a full round of attacks each round).
Take two melee characters (say a fighter and a rogue) in a five-foot corridor against a monster. The fighter is in front, and the rogue is 10 feet behind the fighter. The rogue goes first, but he can't attack, as the fighter is in the way, so he delays. Then the fighter goes, takes a full round of attacks, and takes a five-foot step back (into the empty space between the fighter and the rogue). Then, the rogue goes (he was delaying remember) and moves up into the space between the fighter and the monster and attacks the monster.
Then, on the next round of combat, the fighter delays until after the rogue (who goes right after him anyway), the rogue can attack again and then tumble away (if he has tumble) or simply withdraw (if he doesn't) without provoking an AoO, and then the fighter can once again take a 5 foot step forward and use a full round of attacks. Repeat as necessary.
This tactic gives both melee guys something to do (admittedly, if the rogue doesn't have tumble, he will be attacking only once every other round, or drawing AoOs) and it alternates which character is on the front lines during the monster's turn, which may be advantageous (the monster now has to deal more damage before he can drop any one character).
I guess my point is I agree with the people above who don't see five-foot corridors as a problem. When the going gets tough, the tough have to get creative.
Just to clarify, I'm in the "5' wide corriders aren't a problem" camp. I simply posted the one rule snippet to help clarify one of the points Merric was making.
Your setup, Jeremy, is exactly the sort of tactical planning groups need to do when they find themselves fighting in cramped areas.
I'm sorry?
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Alright, alright! Same tactic but a single attack and a move to the back of the line (to create a space), then five-foot-steps + full attacks. Gees!
Ultradan
So I guess the answer to Merric's original question:
Can we please stop having maps with 5' wide corridors?
is "No." Obviously, most of the posters here are of the "Suck it up, nancy-boy!" mindset. ;-) Seriously, though, I think that although his complaint has some validity, the trend is that 5' wide corridors are the norm. Me, I think that the squeezing/low ceiling rules from DMG II may make an appearance on product maps in the near future, and then unprepared adventurers will be in for an even worse time. As a previous poster suggested, parties that aren't prepared to deal with dungeon conditions should stay out in the open. There's nothing wrong with playing to your strengths. But that's just my $0.02!
Ending Your Movement: You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.You can move through a friendly square, but you can't end your movement in an occupied square.
You can't occupy the same space as an ally with a negative modifier? That's gettin' house ruled...
I guess we'll just have to rely on the not yet mentioned Bullrush and Overrun tactics.
Psst. Orcwart mentioned them already.
;)
I don't object to the occasional 5' corridor, but when an entire adventure is 5' corridors, it severely restricts what a 6+ member party can do.
I don't object to the occasional 5' corridor, but when an entire adventure is 5' corridors, it severely restricts what a 6+ member party can do.
....and that's the point many of us have been making......the fatal funnel is a valid defense tactic used by the military, the cops...and the ORCS!!!
I don't object to the occasional 5' corridor, but when an entire adventure is 5' corridors, it severely restricts what a 6+ member party can do.....and that's the point many of us have been making......the fatal funnel is a valid defense tactic used by the military, the cops...and the ORCS!!!
I don't know why, but I expected a DUM!DUM!DUUUUUUUM! after that last line. =)
Personally, I'm all for the 5' corridors. I hated the old skool 10' corridors, and my players never understood why, until I diagrammed my house in 10x10 squares. Or when I laid out 10x10 squares in my back yard to demonstrate how silly it was IRL.
Take two melee characters (say a fighter and a rogue) in a five-foot corridor against a monster. The fighter is in front, and the rogue is 10 feet behind the fighter. The rogue goes first, but he can't attack, as the fighter is in the way, so he delays. Then the fighter goes, takes a full round of attacks, and takes a five-foot step back (into the empty space between the fighter and the rogue). Then, the rogue goes (he was delaying remember) and moves up into the space between the fighter and the monster and attacks the monster.
That's a nice way of doing it, Jeremy.
What gets fun is when the monsters are *also* doing it. Say you have two monsters: the fighter takes a five foot step back, and then both the rogue and the second monster compete to get into that square!
I guess my point is I agree with the people above who don't see five-foot corridors as a problem. When the going gets tough, the tough have to get creative.
If you have one or two five-foot corridors in an adventure, you have a chance to be creative.
If every single corridor is five-foot, then it is dull and frustrating.
Seriously, it also makes sense to have larger corridors in high traffic areas. I was thinking about this during a period off of teaching. Our school hallways are about 10-15 feet wide to accomodate large numbers of students during the passing times.
Coming a little late into the discussion:
Where does the -4 to attacks come from with the reach weapons? If you are referencing soft cover from the PHB, an errata changed that from "melee" to "ranged" attacks. If there's another reason, I certainly wouldn't mind being edified.
Reach weapons use the ranged weapon rules for determining cover.
Cheers!