I've seen a lot of people mention haggling using Diplomacy checks to lower the price of purchased items. I don't know if I've seen anything official on the subject, like the effects of a merchant with a more favorable attitude. Just being helpful doesn't mean the merchant hands items for free to the PCs, but PCs geared toward having a decent Diplomacy will get to a point where they auto-succeed on Diplomacy checks.
-Should Diplomacy be able to affect the sale prices that merchants offer?
-Should this effect all manner of gear and equipment, like magic items and consumable wands and potions, or just mundane gear?
-What level of discount should the PCs be able to achieve? 5%? 10%? More?
-Should the PCs be able to game the system by appointing a designated character with high Diplomacy to make all their purchases?
-Would a system like this be able to work in reverse, with the PCs selling items at more than 50%?
For enterprising characters, could they pay to rent a storefront and hire an expert to sell their items for them, thereby being able to sell closer to 100% of their value? Are there guidelines for something like that yet, or am I just going to have to wait until Ultimate Campaign finally comes out?
I ask these questions because in any campaign that goes on for a while, characters will have the money and diplomacy to make a lot of magic item purchases, and depending on how hard the diplomacy DC should be, they might be saving hundreds or even thousands of gold pieces on every transaction.
You're entirely in GM fiat territory there and this is more Advice than Rules.
On occasion, at the start of a campaign if the village mayor has asked the PCs to do something, let's say "go kill the evil troll," and the heroes are savvy enough to know something about trolls and fire, I might allow a DC 20 Diplomacy check to be gifted one or two bottles of alchemist's fire if they're residents of the village in good standing.
I don't worry about things like players flipping freebies or discounted gear for a profit. If my players did that, I'd give them that look. And then they'd never get gifts from townspeople again as word got out.
Discounting stuff should be circumstantial, limited, and conditional. Make it something like one fish monger gives you discounts on meals for a month but only if you've rescued his daughter and she's returned unharmed. Stuff like that.
I've been using a homebrew skill in my games: Perform (selling) with DC checks, make base check = sale at normal price, +5 over check = +5%, +10 over check = +10%.
I allow my players to use a diplomacy check to haggle with any merchants. I typically mark up all items by a percentage depending on the size of the city/town and the type of shop.
For example, one of my players enters a magic shop in a large city and wants to buy s somewhat rare item that costs 10,000 gold. I initially mark up the item 150% (30% for large city and 20% for rare item) so the base price is 15,000 gold. Now I have the player roll his diplomacy against the shop keepers appraise. For every 5 points the player beats the shopkeepers role I take 5% off the price to a minimum of 110% of the items book cost (the merchant needs to make some money after all).
It may sound a bit tedious, but it goes really fast and my players love the chance to try and have the face in the group get their items at a discount.
Keep in mind this is all homebrew rules though. I am not aware of any official rules on haggling.
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Appraise has limited use in a game like pathfinder. In the spirit of skills like acrobatics, perception, and stealth - skills that roll two or more D&D 3.5 skills into one - I propose appraise be expanded to include all things involving money. This could include negotiating value when buying/selling and management of finances - helpful in game like Kingmaker.
I've seen a lot of people mention haggling using Diplomacy checks to lower the price of purchased items. I don't know if I've seen anything official on the subject...
Haggle: You can use the Diplomacy skill to bargain for goods or services, including those of a magical nature. When discussing the sale of an item or service, you can attempt to lower the asking price with a Diplomacy check made to influence NPC attitudes (see the sidebar on page 72 of the Player's Handbook). If you manage to adjust the vendor's attitude to helpful (most vendors begin as indifferent), the vendor lowers the asking price by 10%. Add the vendor's Diplomacy check modifier to the DC needed to achieve the result. For example, to adjust the attitude of an indifferent vendor with a Diplomacy modifier of +3 to friendly, you must achieve a result of 33 or higher on your Diplomacy check (a base chance of 30, +3 for target's Diplomacy modifier). If you worsen the vendor's attitude, the vendor refuses to sell anything to you at this time. The DM is the final arbiter of any sale of goods and should discourage abuse of this option if it is slowing the game down too much.
Action: Haggling requires at least 1 full minute, as normal for a Diplomacy check.
Try Again: You can't retry a Diplomacy check to haggle.
This was a 3.5 optional use of Diplomacy rule printed in Complete Adventurer. The above text is posted as a free preview on the WotC web site and should not be a problem for reposting here.
I am assuming this is where most folks got the idea to use Diplomacy to reduce perchase costs.
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martryn-
You may want to look at the first book of Skull & Shackles. In the "Life of a Pirate" appendix there are rules for buying/selling cargo. A set percentage of the goods value is based on the size of the settlement you're trying to do business in. It also talks about using Diplomacy skill checks to get the best deal. Perhaps they'd make a strong foundation for you?
(I think) Daigle wrote that portion of the AP, maybe he can chime in?
I also do what most here do, with finer detail. I have the merchant roll his Diplomacy (or profession skill, doesn't matter which really) and the player rolls his. Highest roll subtracts lowest and adust % on a 1 on 1. eg Player rolls a 30, Merchant gets a 21, player gets a 9% discount.
I use MT and a macro so the math is easy enough. Otherwise I would probably do increments of 5% only, maybe winner adjusts 5% plus 5% for every 5 he wins by.
In the end, it doesn't affect much but the players "Feel" like they have a chance to save money and it gives another reason to bump the skill. Although, I probably would use Appraise now, or maybe allow either.
Haggling could also take place out of character, especially for those in the practice of crafting their own goods. The SRD page for Magic Items, in the pricing section, does state that, in estimating magic item prices, judgement calls should be made.
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Why does how much someone likes you matter if they wouldn't give a dieing friend a discount on a remove disease potion?
It is a huge assumption diplomacy works on the guy or that the shop keeper will waste time talking to you about something that's not business. These people sell things and are to a charity.
Appraise should be the best way to do this.
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For every 5 points the player beats the shopkeepers role I take 5% off the price to a minimum of 110% of the items book cost (the merchant needs to make some money after all).
The merchant's profit is already accounted for in the fact that the item's book cost is normally twice the cost to make the item. A merchant makes a +1 sword for 1,000 gp and sells it at 2,000gp for a 1,000gp profit - or splits the profit with a crafter. Mundane items created using the craft skill have a materials cost of 1/3 book price.
Of course, some of that "profit" might go to non-materials costs like maintaining a shop, or security if the merchant's stock is particularly valuable, so not all of the 1,000gp earned on a +1 sword goes into the merchant's and/or crafter's pocket. But the profit exists somewhere in the 2x to 3x markup between the crafting cost and the book price for the item. The book price is supposed to be the price items are normally sold at.
I have players roll an opposed Diplomacy against shopkeepers when they feel like haggling. Generally, though, "real" stores will have fixed prices, and rarely accept second-hand items. For bartering and trade, they need to go to Pawn Alley, where price, and quality, are generally lower, but bartering and trade can potentially get you more for your money.
I also give merchants good Charisma, so it's not going to be easy. And of course, some just won't be swayed.
The merchant's profit is already accounted for in the fact that the item's book cost is normally twice the cost to make the item. A merchant makes a +1 sword for 1,000 gp and sells it at 2,000gp for a 1,000gp profit - or splits the profit with a crafter. Mundane items created using the craft skill have a materials cost of 1/3 book price.
Of course, some of that "profit" might go to non-materials costs like maintaining a shop, or security if the merchant's stock is particularly valuable, so not all of the 1,000gp earned on a +1 sword goes into the merchant's and/or crafter's pocket. But the profit exists somewhere in the 2x to 3x markup between the crafting cost and the book price for the item. The book price is supposed to be the price items are normally sold at.
You do bring up a good point that I never really thought of, but if I were to change it at this point in the campaign it would seem weird. Something to keep in mind for the next one for sure though.
To be honest though, I'm pretty generous with the amount of gold the group receives, so it hasn't been an issue as of yet.
I tried haggling in a campaign once but the problem I ran into was that the players continued to level up, thus increasing their Diplomacy score, while the merchants' levels stayed relatively stagnant. I found that at some point in the campaign, the players' diplomacy was high enough that the roll became inconsequential and onerous and they'd wind up getting everything they purchased at a discount, thus off balancing their wealth per level slightly.
I also attempted it in a campaign about a year ago, specifically, Legacy of Fire. Here's the Link for the thread where I discussed an alternate system using Diplomacy, Intimidate,and Appraise. For my group, this kind of worked since it reflected the highly variable nature of buying and selling things in Katapesh.
I tried haggling in a campaign once but the problem I ran into was that the players continued to level up, thus increasing their Diplomacy score, while the merchants' levels stayed relatively stagnant. I found that at some point in the campaign, the players' diplomacy was high enough that the roll became inconsequential and onerous and they'd wind up getting everything they purchased at a discount, thus off balancing their wealth per level slightly.
Since its all house-rule anyways, you are under no obligation to reduce the price according to a number set in stone. If the players feel like they're getting something for all of their skill investment, then thats enough. Reducing the price of the 1st level potion by 5-10% is very different from reducing the price of a +5 weapon by that percentage. Impose some limits.
I've always allowed haggling, but I have a somewhat complex system which combines several rule sets. Based on this, I have several suggestions:
1. Haggling, as a rule, requires the item to be sold regardless of the results (as mentioned by Bacon). The players only know the price if they can successfully appraise it or take it to someone they trust.
2. Max liquid assets a merchant has.
3. Max %+ or - a PC can gain/lose from haggling. For my system, iirc, these range +/- 1% to 10%.
4. Price increase & decrease based on town size. While you might be able to buy a suit of full plate in a reasonable amount of time and dirt cheap in a metropolis, you're going to get robbed, figuratively speaking, in a hamlet or village.
5. Bonuses and penalties based on "tolerance" level of a race. Some parties like to have a "face-man", but the price is still increased, for example, if you're known to travel with certain races (depending on bias in an area/region). I've had several instances where the party rogue had to disguise herself to sell gear due to a tiefling or two in the party.
6. Wartime/Peacetime status of the region can increase/normalize costs.
For my setting, all of these factors play a part. Fortunately, I also have assigned specific "values" to some of these in a chart, so it doesn't take forever trying to figure everything out.