Is it just me or are spot/listen checks a pain in the buttocks? First roll Hide/Move Silently for the monsters then figure out which players saw/heard what after being barbarded by 8+ rolls at once while trying to figure out distance penalties. Then roll Listen/Spot for the monsters opposed by the group's rogue, again figuring distance penalties in order to know how many of the twelve goblins notice the sneaking halfling. Ow how my head hurts!
In addition (though I am slightly embarrassed to say so) I'm not positive when it is approprate to call for Listen or Spot or both. Has anyone found a way to make sneak/detection checks simpler? Lately I've reduced them from opposed rolls to DC rolls which reduces the dice involved by half. Still, what's a DM to do without a bottle of tylenol?
If you're actually using the distance modifiers, I expect you're tracking a level of detail above what the average DM bothers with. Also, many people would make one collective roll for the monsters rather than rolling for each. It gives the rogue half a chance of success, too. Odds are out of 8 rolls somebody rolls 20 or nearly that, which the rogue most likely doesn't match. At low levels, volume of rolls will overcome the few ranks a PC is allowed to purchase 9 times out of 10.
When multiple monsters are sneaking up on the PCs (like when their camping out at tnight, in the woods), I will roll only one move silently and one hide for the entire monster group. They usually get bonuses on their hide checks for being in the woods, and for being in the dark (which usually gives them something like a +10 or +15 bonus, depending how far they are).
For the PCs, I make them roll each a spot and listen check (giving the sleeping players a -10 on both their checks).
Usually what happens is that the two PCs on guard will end up only hearing something and will get a chance to react during the surprise round.
Ultradan
Contributor
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I definitely do one roll per group of critters and use the approptiate modifier of the lowest critter (going with the theory that the most clumsy opponent is the one most likely to make a sound and give their location away anyhow.
When running a game, I often do a lot of those rolls in advance and put them right into the stat blocks, or let the creatures "take 10". Unless the roll is crucial to the plot, I'll go with average and prefer not to roll both to keep the game moving and also not to give anything away. I've found players make more Spot/Listen checks if they hear or see you make an opposed check, as they automatically think somethings happening (damn metagamers)
Another think I often do is put distance modifiers (among other things)right on my maps. I got into the habit of putting tons of info right on the maps that had to do with terrain mods, cover, etc. It started with writing the number of days it might take a character to travel along a road or sea route, then I became addicted to dropping on more info like how terrain and and weather might affect the travel time. Once 3.0 came out it was a natural progression for me to add modifiers to my regular maps.
Try this:
Assume everyone in the party constantly takes 10 on Spot and Move Silently checks, except in fights.
Never ask them to make a check - just check the result of MS or Hide against their take 10's. You can write them down on a post-it on your DM's screen.
If a player chooses to roll a check, he has to explicitly tell you. This takes a move action (the equivalent of stopping for a moment to concentrate).
Similar to Mr Mearls' suggestion, I have my players give me 8-10 rolls before we start a session. As the game progresses, should a PC need to make a check, I've already got a roll, and a list of the basic skills with the PC's modifier. Some will be spectacular successes, others spectacular failures.
Thanks for all the input, all.
I had a thread along these lines a couple of weaks ago and while there were suggestions that got me through the session I must agree that the whole spot/hide/listen routine is just done badly. The rules don't really cover how the system works when dealing with groups - and lets be realistic here - most adventuring parties are made up of more then one rogue. The mosters have the same deal - though lone rogues for them might be possible.
Really the rules need to be hammered down in this area. Maybe a 'group' spot/listen/hide system should be developed. Something that takes the basic modifiers for each member of the group into account and reduces it to a single number.
So a group of adventurers might have +7 to spot as a group, +3 to listen if their moving and +9 if they have stopped (they clank a lot when they move) and -2 to hide (did I mention they clanked a lot).
I think it would be fair to include other bonuses for group movement...
Survival offers circumstance bonuses to hide as the ranger teaches the others to use natural camoflage.
Knowledge (geography) allows the bard to use the landscape to hide the party's approach.
But to simplify I say you use the loudest member - the weakest link is what's going to get the party caught.
Personally, I use either a Hide/Spot or a Move Silent/Listen depending on what is happening, not both. It's a bit arbitrary which one I use.
For monsters, I generally do a Take 10 and let the PCs roll. So that cuts the die rolls down by 3/4ths.
Something I saw in some alterante rules, I think it is Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed, is to have one Sneak skill rather than the two. Maybe create a Sneak skill that is the average of Move Silent/Hide and a Anti-Sneak that is the average of Spot/Listen.
Neverwinter Nights had a Sneak rule which a combo of Hide & Move Silently. Worked pretty well.
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I like that "Mutants and Masterminds" uses Stealth and Notice in place of Hide/Move Silently and Spot/Listen checks... but have to admit that it's flavorful for an enemy or PC with extraordinarily acute sight or hearing to be able to pick up small details, which then allows for some flavorful descriptions of the "soundlessly, a shadowy figure stalks towards your campsite, the light of the dying campfire playing off the blade in its hand" variety.
I like Mr. Mearls' suggestion; time to houserule it!
Is it just me, or does anyone else use Listen for other senses (particularly scent?)"Listen...do you smell that?"
(or something like that) Ghostbusters
Acctually I would say that smelling something is closer related to the Spot skill.
"Look... Do you smell that?"