My free-wheeling days as a liberal DM are finally over. Last night's game did it, finally, after 25 years of DMing for most of these players.
An argument at the gaming table between a character and an NPC monster erupted into a shouting match between players and then a lot of accusations and finger pointing which came from players now wanting to "spin" events so that certain items and certain bodies were or were not recovered from a building that was being bashed to pieces by a cloud giant.
I'm usually very liberal about that sort of thing--my attitude was "if your PC would reasonably have thought of it but the player didn't, I give the player the benefit of the doubt, since the PC is living in that world, and the player only has a very limited picture based on the DM's description."
Well, not any more. From now on, players in my game can only speak when it's their turn. If they want their character to argue with another character, they'll have to do it in 1 minute increments. I'm going to enforce a strict timeline protocol, even when not in combat.
I'm going to start penalizing players who talk when their character is not in a position to talk.
I'm going to start penalizing players who (subtly) try to use player knowledge.
Nothing will be "assumed" any more. If a player doesn't say that their character did something--it didn't happen. There will be NO discussion between players at the game table if their characters are not in a position to speak to each other. If someone speaks up when they cannot be reasonably heard to give advice or something, I'm going to dock them XP.
My players are either going to learn to police themselves or they're going to quit playing, but I'm not going to let them take control of the D&D game and try to put a PR firm spin factor on me to try to win an argument against another player. I hate being manipulated and I hate being lied to, because I caught two players claiming that they told me something when I know for a fact that they didn't (they're counting on the fact that I was distracted to try to sneak in a retroactive claim that they did something when they became aware of what was going on).
I firmly believe that they know me so well and know how forgiving I am about those types of things that they are starting to use it as a way to cheat and backpedal out of a situation that didn't end up the way they expected it.
Well...no more. Being lied to and being manipulated are two things I will not stand for. I have put the campaign on hiatus until after the New Year. If anyone has any advice on how to run a more STRICT and FORMAL game that enforces protocols on the players to reduce back-pedalling and "mental time travel" cheating, please share them with me. I don't want to quit DMing, but something's gotta change.
I'd give it a week and see how you feel about the whole sitaution then. Your being totally emotional right now and its bad form for a DM to be making descisions based on angry emotions.
You're right, of course, but the players "were" trying to police themselves and had even bought me a little hotel registration desk bell to "ring" whenever it was time to remind them to shut up and play the game.
We were doing a "round robin" type thing where each player decribes what their character is doing for the next "time increment," but last night the players ALL got way out of control again.
I think what I'm going to ask for is each player to write down some "standard protocols" for their character for certain game situations--that's one thing.
While I'll probably be amused more by this next week than I am now, being lied to and manipulated will still be a pet peeve of mine and won't be tolerated.
I really think a more formal, turn-like, process for D&D, even when not in combat, can work and be helpful. It works for board games and if it works to reduce arguments and questions about which character is where, I don't see a problem with it right now (although I'm sure somebody will point one out to me, which is why I posted my problem here).
The problem is you're about to turn your campaign into a concentration camp. Instead, you should confront your players about the BS they tried to pull. Tell them you don't appreciate it. And if they're your friends, they should /definitely/ have more respect for you than that.
If it comes down to it, let them suffer. Tell them to find a new DM, and find yourself a new group to DM for. I think it's better than trying to mire them in a Codex Conductus. How's that fun for you, let alone for them?
I was really pissed off at them all last night, because we HAD talked about this very problem before--repeatedly.
Our gaming hiatus is mostly because of holiday scheduling conflicts anyway, so it's a good break to work this out.
I think any of the DM's on this board would have been angry last night as well had they been in my shoes. I don't want to go into too much detail, as it isn't relevant.
Surprisingly, this issue wasn't a problem until 3rd edition...I'm not blaming the game, but it is kind of weird.
I'm working out some ideas on what I, as a DM, can do so as not to be too dictator-like, but still reign in the players a little bit. Any ideas from the learned Paizo board readers and posters who may have faced similar issues?
A few suggestions I can think of:
* Make a list of common situations, and have the players write up a SOP for them (standard operating procedure). This way, they have to tell you if they deviate from the plan. This is for things like checking doors/chests for traps, marching order, etc.
* Outside of the SOP stuff, whatever action they decide on (give 'em time to think if they need it) is what they're stuck with. As long as you give them enough info to work with, there shouldn't be any "oh but in that case I'd have done /this/" stuff.
* No arguing at the game table. Let them raise a brief objection if something pops up, but once you rule they have to wait until after the session or sometime between sessions to discuss it at length. In our group, the DM makes an on the spot judgement, then allows discussion another time to help him decide how the situation will be handled from then on.
* Since this seems to be a problem with your players, make it known that if they lie to you or cheat in any way, there'll be consequences. Dock XP each time you catch them. If that doesn't settle them, boot the offender from the group. A dire last resort, but they're being a complete jerk at that point anyway.
All these are pretty much just simple rules of conduct that still allow players a lot of freedom during game sessions.
Oh how I hate the thing you've described from players.
It's been many years since returning to D&D after a break between teenage gaming and adult gaming. My first group when I started back up as an adult was all close friends or friends of friends. What ultimately happened after months of this kind of thing was that I rebuilt my group and learned from the mistakes I made in what I allowed and did not allow at my table.
It's been almost 10 years since that original group and I've learned a few things that I'll share with you that may help if not now, perhaps down the line.
#1 - A group of close friends is not the ideal gaming group, believe it or not. Better to have maybe one good friend and the rest people you've met through "players wanted" ads or that you've met at another DM's group.
#2 - Even the best players cannot help themselves when it comes to acting on character knowledge vs. players knowledge. If one or two players are aware of something, but the others are not, take them in the other room and fill them in and tell them to keep it quiet about it. If a PC or monster is invisible, hiding, or just not seen, don't leave the mini on the table (if you use them). Ask the player to keep track of where the mini is. This also helps DM's not to use this knowledge for the bad guys.
#3 - If players start shouting at each other at the game, it's time for them to find another game. If it happens once, it will happen again and maybe the next time it goes beyond just shouting.
Those 3 tips are probably the best I can give. Can't think of more at the moment. Take 'em or leave 'em.
Hope things work out for your group, Stefan.
A few suggestions I can think of:
* Make a list of common situations, and have the players write up a SOP for them (standard operating procedure). This way, they have to tell you if they deviate from the plan. This is for things like checking doors/chests for traps, marching order, etc.
* Outside of the SOP stuff, whatever action they decide on (give 'em time to think if they need it) is what they're stuck with. As long as you give them enough info to work with, there shouldn't be any "oh but in that case I'd have done /this/" stuff.
* No arguing at the game table. Let them raise a brief objection if something pops up, but once you rule they have to wait until after the session or sometime between sessions to discuss it at length. In our group, the DM makes an on the spot judgement, then allows discussion another time to help him decide how the situation will be handled from then on.
* Since this seems to be a problem with your players, make it known that if they lie to you or cheat in any way, there'll be consequences. Dock XP each time you catch them. If that doesn't settle them, boot the offender from the group. A dire last resort, but they're being a complete jerk at that point anyway.
All these are pretty much just simple rules of conduct that still allow players a lot of freedom during game sessions.
Some of my suggestions were a bit off topic. These are all excellent ideas and a bit more on topic than mine.
I've given this some thought and talked about it with a long time friend of mine who's also played D&D for decades, but who lives on the East Coast--but knows all my players very well.
He says I just need to establish a "little" more control over the game--not be a total dictator like my knee-jerk response above seemed to indicate. He doesn't blame them for their behavior--he blames MY lack of control. I think he's right, unfortunately.
He said that when he DMed for the same two main problem players 15 years ago and similar problems popped up he just pulled the reigns a little bit and started enforcing what he calls "realism protocols." He means that when characters are in public places or actively adventuring the players can't talk to each other unless their characters can talk to each other--things like that. He says I don't have to be a jerk unless I catch them taking advantage of me again, but he does think instituting what I originally posted would just ruin the game.
We'll have to see what happens. I've got a month before I run this campaign's game again.
Every time I start a new gaming group, I hand the players a list of the 10 Commandments of DnD.
1. If one player is missing, we will play anyway. Unless the story allows for it, we will not play with two or more missing players. PCs not participating in a session get no XP for that session. PCs run by players other than their own, but participating, get half XP. (This isn’t meant to punish people who miss a session, but rather to reward those players who do come.)
2. PCs of missing players are run by other players if at all possible, assuming the player is willing.
3. Players aren’t allowed to do other things during the session, and are discouraged from getting up from the table except on regular breaks that the whole group takes.
4. No rules discussions are allowed, unless the discussion is kept very short.
5. No DM rulings are questioned during the session.
6. Cocked dice and dice on the floor are rerolled.
7. No books are required, but players aren’t allowed to reference any book other than the Player’s Handbook during the session without permission.
8. Magic items and important equipment are kept on individual index cards for organizational purposes.
9. Off-topic discussion during the game is discouraged. To help this, players are encouraged to arrive early to talk about the events of the week and whatnot.
10. Players are allowed to converse regarding their PCs and their actions “out of time’s flow” with no hard limit.
It helps to establish certain things you expect your players to abide by. And feel free to set rules your way, if it is your game you're running. And if they go astray, I typically issue 1 reminder, and if rude behavior (like a shouting match) occurs, remember that you are there to have a good time, so keep your cool and ask them to leave your house. If it happens the next game session, tell them they they shouldn't return.
I've done this for the past 10 years, and kicked several people out of my house and game for whatever reasons during that time.
Now I have absolutely great players, who respect my home and my family. We meet every week on time (more or less), everyone contributes money for food (when they can), and we all have a blast even if we never roll a die all night.
In my game, there's just one rule: Have Fun.
If that means that we schedule a five hour gamming session on a saturday and half-way through we start fooling around and telling jokes; well, so be it. If it doesn't bother anybody.
What can I say man, you can have the best player with the best DM with the best storyline ever, and sometimes it just doesn't work. It's nobodies fault, really.
I have five players. All the XP the group accumulates is divided between the players equally with 25% of those points going into a pool. The pool is distributed as shares at the end of the night. Players get shares by doing the following:
1) Just for being present,
2) Good role playing (the cleric donates half of his treasure),
3) Good ideas (a player comes up with a plan or solves a complex riddle),
4) Inciting others to play well.
Of course, they can also lose shares as well:
1) When they argue, or incite others to argue,
2) Bad role playing (the undamaged fighter refuses to help others in melee),
3) Bad ideas (the wizard casts a fireball on the enemy who is engaged in melee with the PCs),
This 'sort of' keeps the players in line, as they all want an xp bonus at the end of the session. But things will happen, and even if we derail completely from the game, as long as we all had fun. And isn't that the point?
Ultradan
When I first moved from being a player to a DM with my current group, they took a LOT of advantage of me. I had DM'd before, but it had been years, so I was basically learning all over again. My big problem was my memory. I can't remember small details from session to session, and while I write down all of the big stuff, I can't write down every little thing and every little judgement call or I may as well be writing my own campaign novel. Once my players figured this out, they started screwing with it.
I almost decided to chuck the whole thing until my husband talked me out of it and reminded me that I had invested way to much time in developing my world to let them take it away from me, or force me into being the type of combat boot camp DM that I didn't want to be.
So, what I did instead, was look at the major issues that kept coming up and inform my players that THIS is how I was going to deal with them unless the player told me different each and every time the situation came up. Two examples:
Percentile rolls: I don't know if percentiles are used in 3rd ed, but we still play 2nd. Also, I know that many DMs do the rolls for the characters, but we let our players do their own rolls (mainly to make life easier on the DM). So say someone has a 25% chance of finding a trap. One player would target 25 or under, another would target 75 or higher, and one player actually tried to convince me that her CHARACTERS flip flopped between targeting high or low depending on the character. So now, I don't care if in the very round before a player told me they target high, if they don't tell me THIS roll they are targeting high, the default rule is you target low.
Character location: This sounds like it was an issue in part of what caused the blow up for you. Since we don't play 3rd ed, we don't use the battle mat / grid bit, but we started having problems with players backpeddling on where they were or what they were doing based on negative consequences. The one that finally broke the straw was when a character opens a door, crosses the room, sets off a trap, DM gave the damage and player started arguing that he hadn't crossed the room. So now, we use minatures for EVERYTHING. Player dies, their miniature is knocked down. If another player takes the body, they move the dead mini with them. If they don't move the dead mini, they forgot to take the dead Char. Period. The minis move according to what the player says they are doing, whether it's a combat situation or otherwise. It's helped a LOT.
I've given this some thought and talked about it with a long time friend of mine who's also played D&D for decades, but who lives on the East Coast--but knows all my players very well.
He says I just need to establish a "little" more control over the game--not be a total dictator like my knee-jerk response above seemed to indicate. He doesn't blame them for their behavior--he blames MY lack of control. I think he's right, unfortunately.
He said that when he DMed for the same two main problem players 15 years ago and similar problems popped up he just pulled the reigns a little bit and started enforcing what he calls "realism protocols." He means that when characters are in public places or actively adventuring the players can't talk to each other unless their characters can talk to each other--things like that. He says I don't have to be a jerk unless I catch them taking advantage of me again, but he does think instituting what I originally posted would just ruin the game.
We'll have to see what happens. I've got a month before I run this campaign's game again.
Your friend is wise...listen to him.
To maintain control and prevent "misunderstandings" over who did what during un-documented game time (as opposed to combat rounds, where all character actions are clearly logged on a sheet, round by round), I make it clear to my players that no character action is assumed unless it would be reasonable to make that assumtion, based on the character's class, race and temperament; a rogue who has a history of searching each and every defeated corpse in the room, despite imminent danger nearby, can be reasonably assumed to have done so, even if the player forgot to mention it. The thing players must remember is that YOU, the DM, have the right to make that call, not the player; if they cry about it, tell them to remember to state their action next time.
In your case, you may have overlooked two points regarding this topic:
- REGARDLESS of what your player RETROACTIVELY SAYS his character did, ONLY THE DM has the ability to retroactively alter history of gameplay; I usually only do so to correct for overlooked rules or spell effects that were missed, etc. Sometimes even I have to eat the results of overlooked details in the game - once, my group handily defeated a pair of Fire Giants because I neglected to utilize their Power Attack feat; I now make a point to print a single page hard copy of all monsters and highlight their various abilities before game time.
- REGARDLESS of the DMs ruling on point one, the players do NOT have the right to argue about it; if a DM can be lobbied and argued into changing his position, you've opened the door to having every call disputed - which results in the game bogging down in a "rules court", effectively diluting the DMs role in the game and making him more of an NPC-player than a referee.
Like a dog that's gotten out of your yard, your group now knows how to challenge you; you're going to have an uphill battle in reining them back into order. IMHO, any player willing to loudly fight you on anything needs to leave the table - for the night or for good...they've forgotten rule #1 of RPG play.
Good luck,
M
not now, perhaps down the line.
#1 - A group of close friends is not the ideal gaming group, believe it or not. Better to have maybe one good friend and the rest people you've met through "players wanted" ads or that you've met at another DM's group.
Good, solid advice.
I often find myself a thousand times more frsutrated with a group of close friends than at say, the FLGS Lviing Greyhawk games.
With close friends, you want to talk about so many other things, and goof around. You want to talk and be social, but your closeness overpowers the rest fo the game.
I like playing with acquaintances. People I know and like, but am not especially close with, so we can enjoy each others company, be social, discuss mutual hobbies, but get gaming done.
Also, it seems like friends are the most likely to pull that kind of crap that happened to you.
I've been DMing for the same group for over seven years, and we're a close group. They understand what I expect, and my players are mature enough to know that their characters could certainly know more or less than they themselves do about the game. I'm lucky in that regard. There's enough respect at the table going in both directions that we never get into arguments.
That being said, I think you need to ask yourself, "How much do I really want to DM?" I love DMing, and I bend over backwards for my players all the time. I'm always willing to consider giving players the benefit of the doubt simply for the sake of the continuation of the game, which is what's most important.
I think imposing strict rules and time limits creates an air of "Me against them" at the table, which is never a good thing. Be careful you don't lose your players over this. If that happens, the game is over.
First I'd like to say that I don't envy you one bit! You are in an extremely difficult situation and it sounds like an uphill battle trying to get out of it - made all the more difficult because these people are your friends and friendships shouldn't suffer over what ultimately is just a game (and should be a source of entertainment and bonding, not hate and strife).
I hate to say it but I agree with your friend that YOU are ultimately responsible for this entire situation. In an effort to be easy-going and open-minded, you've created a situation where large amounts of your authority and respect are undermined and overridden by players eager to protect their characters from unfortunate circumstances. I liked the dog reference someone used earlier in this thread. Unfortunately you can't unring a bell and I think it's going to get worse before it gets better. You've been playing with these people for years and they've always managed to weasel their ways out of unpleasant situations before, they're going to balk at any attempt to clamp down on such behavior. The bottom line is that rules are necessary to keep any game under control and maximize the fun (and safety) of all involved.
Tiger Lily's comments about the use of miniatures is right on. We do the same thing in my game. Where your miniature is standing is where your character is standing - at ALL times, not just during combat. Dead minis need to be collected and carried or they are left lying exactly where they were when the PCs left the room.
Perhaps the number one rule (and the rule all others are dependent on) is ASSUME NOTHING. After all, we all know what assuming gets you!
I don't have any advice about taking turns since we still play 2nd edition. Initiative establishes who acts "first" and even "simutaneaous" moves are described in turn. I don't have a clue how to maintain that without time segments.
Another important rule is Player Knowledge is STRICTLY forbidden. I award zero xps for encounters where players act with out of game knowledge. This works wonderfully even among friends. Those players who insist on acting on out-of-game knowledge only continue to punish themselves.
Don't let players speak (i.e. give advice or comment) when their characters are not in a position to do so.
Back to rule number one (assume nothing) force players to say what they mean and mean what they say. If the thief doesn't SAY that he's checking for traps, then he didn't do it - damage may ensue. If characters announce they're opening a door and rushing inside then ... hey, they all might end up at the bottom of that pit trap or in the midst of those six mindflayers you didn't have the chance to warn them about.
It sounds like you haven't applied any responsibility to the players for their character's actions/words/decisions. WARNING - they aren't going to like it when you suddenly start establishing accountability and having them deal with the consequences of their actions, but ... hey - it's called maturity and it sounds like your players are long overdue for some.
They're your friends and I don't think making them miserable or ejecting anyone from the game is anything anyone wants to see happen. D&D is supposed to be fun - for everyone! You were right in your original post when you said something's gotta change. That something is you. Despite desires to accomodate your players and have a more liberal playing environment, certain boundaries have been violated and need to be reestablished/reenforced from now on. A month is plenty of time to reherse your speech on the implimentation of a new "rules" system with little or no room for "mulligans".
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There is one ultimate and mighty rule in my game:
No Rules Lawyers!!!!
Now mind you I don't claim to know every single rule about every aspect of the game but I generally learned a lot of them. But if a player starts arguing with me or any other player in the group over abilities, where they are and whatnot that are immediately told to shut up in front of everyone. If it persist well they are a player without a game.
I have only had this problem a few time in tenure of DMing. And I will not run a game with that person in it again he just makes DMing unenjoyable for me and the players. He would sit there during the game and be talking to another player most likely the only other chick aside from my wife and use his character as a way to show off. it was annoying and childish. I am so glad I lost contact with that person.
I haven't been gaming long, but most of that time has been as DM. My group has always consisted of my friends, though I have branched out to others while I was away for military training. There are always going to be disputes with what players think and what a DM thinks is happening. The best rule to remember is that the YOU AS THE DM ARE IN CHARGE. The best advice I can offer is that you need to enforce your rules more. I'm not saying that you need to be super strict and clamp down so hard the players feel they are in prison, but keep the game going by keeping everyone in check. When I start a new group away from my friends, we always establish ground rules. Such as the way crits are rolled, how everyone levels up, and character movement. I've always tried to have fun, though there have been a few times when the game's gotten out of hand. I've had players get mad at each other and take it out in the game. I ended the session right there. Once we had our thief get mad at our fighter and he pulled out a bag of holding and ruptured it to kill him. Another was with two brothers (both in the game and actually brothers) who were mad because one kept shooting into melee combat the other was in. So the fighter pulled the masterwork arrows from the dead bugbear and began breaking them one by one in front of his brother's face. This caused a big argument and the DM (wasn't me this time) stopped it. One wound up leaving and we continued the game after that. Anyway, all I'm saying is that you have to be strict and fair, but also realized that its supposed to be fun. I know you weren't having fun when this happened, and the players were wrong for taking advantage of you. I hope that you can work things out after the holidays and keep everything rolling and having fun.
A bit from my Hoarde
We had a long discussion via e-mail and telephone where everyone aired their opinions and interpretations of what happened. It was agreed that just a little more DM control would reduce miscommunication and conflict and I agreed to allow a few minutes of free-wheeling discussion among the players every hour or so--justified by the fact that the character virtually live together and would know each other better than the players ever would and thus might gain insight from a discussion the characters may have had in the past about the tactics during a certain situation.
I'll see if the players are going to abuse this priviledge, but hopefully just them knowing that I'm "watching them" now will mean that they'll be a bit more careful.