This combination might seem bizarre; it probably is. I've just been wondering about these things for a while.
1: Can you take 10 and/or 20 with Hide checks? Under what circumstances?
2: Can you fail the Ref save on Entangle, then, on the next round, make the DC to escape and still move at half speed in the same round? I have a player with a druid who, at 5th level, can stop anything dead in its tracks (particularly many 5-headed and a 7-headed cryohydra), at which point it is peppered to death by ranged spells and attacks. I know ways AROUND this: flying oppenents, agile ones, etc. However, it seems almost any brawler type anything, even of moderately high CR, immediately falls into a deadly cylce of strength checks and failed Ref saves that leaves it almost no mobility, save the odd round that it actually moves 20 or less feet before succuming the massive ranged firepower. Similar questions go to similar spells, particularly Briarweb from the Complete Divine. I just think that Entangle is, as I've been reading it, possible too powerful for a 1st level spell.
1: I say no, because Hide has a negative consequence of being "found." In other words, you don't just roll the hide check unless you want to hide from somebody, so there is a negative consequence, in which case you'r enot supposed to be able to take 10 or 20.
Also, I don't think you can take 10 or 20 on "opposed" rolls, isn't that in the rules?
2: I say yes, that's what I've been doing.
I can't find anything that specifically says that one can't take 10 on opposed rolls, but the rules of opposed rolls themselves and the nature of most of them gerneally make this a moot point. However, on some WotC adventure I downloaded once, I found reference of a crocodile taking 20 on his Hide check, since it had all the time in the world to just set up in the natural terrain and wait for prey.
So, if you have a lot fo time to prepare, can you take 20 on things like Hide? I have trouble seeing where it would be applied to Move Silently, since the need for the skill generally means that it would be an opposed roll with a serious penalty for failure. But, if you can take 20 on Hide, what about taking 10? Can you do that, too? Under what conditions? Or, was the author of the free adventure just wrong?
It kind of ties back into the Entangle question: most of the time, my party has such high Spot and Listen that virtually nothing could get close to them (less than 50 feet) without them seeing it, casting Entangle and Briarweb, and then destroying it at range. I don't have a problem with good tactics; I encourage them. But, when they use such a low level spell to such devestating effect, almost every time, with virtually no chance of failure, it leads me to believe the rules are somehow being misread.
Entangle: "The creature can break free and move half it's normal speed by using a full round action to make a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 20 Escapre Artist check." ??? So, do you move in the round you break free, or the next one when you have to risk being entangled again? It is already an extremely powerful 1st level spell, considering the area of effect (40ft. RADIUS spread, meaning it will bend around corners to fill its area [80ft diameter] as best it can)
I don't have the book in front of me, nor do I play a Druid ever, but doesn't Entangle require natural surroundings to use? In which case, it's a situational spell that can be used very well in the outdoors but is useless otherwise. I thought a lot of Druid spells were like that, which makes them great outdoors but more limited in a dungeon. Although I could be totally wrong. :)
Entangle: "The creature can break free and move half it's normal speed by using a full round action to make a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 20 Escapre Artist check." ??? So, do you move in the round you break free, or the next one when you have to risk being entangled again?
I think it should be read as...
"If you start your turn in a square with an entangle spell, you must roll a DC20 Strength or Escape Artist check in order to move half your speed as a full round action."
So, you can either attack from where you are (with the penalties for being entangled) OR try to move out of the 'entangled' area at half speed with a Strength or Escape Artist check DC20.
And I tend to agree with Chris P. in the previous post, that most of the druid spells function in an outside (or natural) environment. So the Druid becomes very deadly when encountered in nature, but very vulnerable indoors.
Ultradan
Entangle: "The creature can break free and move half it's normal speed by using a full round action to make a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 20 Escapre Artist check." ??? So, do you move in the round you break free, or the next one when you have to risk being entangled again? It is already an extremely powerful 1st level spell, considering the area of effect (40ft. RADIUS spread, meaning it will bend around corners to fill its area [80ft diameter] as best it can)
It says "break free AND move half it's normal speed". I have to assume that's what they mean. Any other reading makes an already over-powered spell ridiculously over-powered.
2: Can you fail the Ref save on Entangle, then, on the next round, make the DC to escape and still move at half speed in the same round?
Yes.
Also, an entangled creature doesn't have to wait for the "next round". The save happens on the druid's initiative. If the creature fails, they can make their escape/move attempt on their own next initiative, whether it's later in the same round or in the next.
1: Can you take 10 and/or 20 with Hide checks? Under what circumstances?
From the 3.0 FAQ:
"In general, you can't take 20 on any check that is resolved with an opposed roll. It might be possible to take 10 on a Hide check. For example, suppose a sentry looks around for a suitable place to hide at the beginning of his watch and then settles in. Since the sentry is not trying to hide from anyone in particular, the DM might very well allow the sentry to take 10 on the Hide check."
I personally find the logic behind the "take 10 on Hide" answer to be lacking. Taking 10 is not dependent on whether you're trying to Hide "from anyone in particular." The relevant question is whether you are threatened or distracted. So yes, you should be able to take 10 on a Hide check (as long as you aren't threatened or distracted), but not for the reason the FAQ says.
2: Can you fail the Ref save on Entangle, then, on the next round, make the DC to escape and still move at half speed in the same round?
Yes. It is a full-round action to "break free and move" half your normal speed.
I just think that Entangle is, as I've been reading it, possible too powerful for a 1st level spell.
Entangle is a good 1st-level spell, no doubt about it. Don't forget, though, that it only works in areas where there is SOME level of vegetation, so it's useless in a lot of "dungeon-crawl" environments. You might also want to modify its effectiveness as suggested in the 3.5 FAQ, by applying a +2 or -2 modifier on Reflex saves and checks to escape depending upon the plants in question.
Entangle: "The creature can break free and move half it's normal speed by using a full round action to make a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 20 Escapre Artist check."
It seems clear, you check AND you move as a full round action.
We always played it like that.
1: I say no, because Hide has a negative consequence of being "found." In other words, you don't just roll the hide check unless you want to hide from somebody, so there is a negative consequence, in which case you'r enot supposed to be able to take 10 or 20.
It's worth repeating, as so many people seem to get this wrong...
"NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES" HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH TAKING 10. That is the rule for taking 20 and ONLY 20.
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So, if you have a lot fo time to prepare, can you take 20 on things like Hide?
As I am at work, can someone please look in the original 3.0E DMG at the beginning of the Encounters chapter? The rule I'm thinking of should be on that very first page in regards to determining encounter distances. I recall the rule stating if one element of the encounter has had sufficient time to "dig in", their Hide value is 25 + their hide modifier vs. the opposed Spot check. Does this relate to the taking 20 question one-to-one or am I comparing oranges to apples? Or is my memory muddled (nothing new there!)?
Thank you, everyone! The situation was this: while (finally) running Fiend's Embrace, the party had to make a 7 day march across a cold swamp (heavily enchanted in my homebrew), so they were always outside. I'm fine with the druid being powerful in nature, but it was just too much. Not to mention it was padt midnight and we'd been playing since 5pm, so I was a bit groggy. I got into a debate and promised to put the question up here. I resolved the issue by making the cryohydras in question use their breath the freeze the plants and then they just shattered on the next Str check. You've all been a great help!
Regardless of if it's written anywhere or not, I think I'll use the DC 25 + Hide modifier rule from now on, though I might just make it 20.
Thank you, everyone! The situation was this: while (finally) running Fiend's Embrace, the party had to make a 7 day march across a cold swamp (heavily enchanted in my homebrew), so they were always outside. I'm fine with the druid being powerful in nature, but it was just too much. Not to mention it was padt midnight and we'd been playing since 5pm, so I was a bit groggy. I got into a debate and promised to put the question up here. I resolved the issue by making the cryohydras in question use their breath the freeze the plants and then they just shattered on the next Str check. You've all been a great help!
Regardless of if it's written anywhere or not, I think I'll use the DC 25 + Hide modifier rule from now on, though I might just make it 20.
Hmm...it'd have been a bit helpful if you had outlined the situation you were in a bit more clearly. You may have had a number of us scrambling for our books to see if we have a totally broken spell when it comes to light that you really just have a bit of an issue with the spell in certian circumstances. Something most of us don't really have an issue with.
On a seperate note--Fiend's Embrace is a cool adventure. The evil NPC party was defeated by my players, but the wizard managed to escape--and then returned later on (without the players' knowledge) to collect the dead bodies of his comrades and take them to get raised.
Now, they are going to be the party's recurring nemesises (is that a word?) and are currently moving secretly to thwart some of my PC's plans.....(evil chuckle)
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Page 60 of the 3.0E DMG:
Hiding and Spoting
If creatures are trying not to be seen, it's usually harder to spot them, but creatures that are keeping low to avoid being spotted also are less likely to notice other creatures.
If creatures are hiding, they can only move at half their normal overland speed. They also suffer a -2 penalty on their own Spot checks to notice other creatures because they are staying low and using cover.
Instead of a base DC of 20 for others to spot them at standard spotting distance, the DC is 25 + the hider's Hide skill modifier. The circumstance modifiers from Table 3—2: Spotting Difficulty still apply, except for size modifier. (I omit some dry mechanics here.)
Additionally, the other creatures do not automatically spot hiding creatures at one-half the encounter distance. Instead, that is the distance at which the other creatures can make Spot checks to notice the hiding creatures. These are normal Spot checks ((I read roll that d20)) opposed by the hiders' Hide checks.
This info doesn't necessarily clarify whether you can take 10 on a Hide check, but explains how you can take "25" at the maximum encounter distance. Then again, I recall looking for these tables in the 3.5 DMG and never finding them. So are the rules for Encounter Distance relevant anymore?