The Cover After reading GGG's interpretation in another thread, naming the cleric Wonder Cleric and all of that, this cover is so hilarious. Yeah, she's straight out of Action Comics #1!
The Goin' Postal Ad on p 17 It's been discussed in a recent thread, but I gotta ask - what on oerth made you decide to put this ad in the magazine, especially next to the "Challenge Accepted" letter? o_O?
Murder in Oakbridge I'm an Eberron DM, so this kind of stuff is just what I'm looking for. Plus, it's a well written, fleshed out with extra hooks adventure that isn't a dungeon crawl! Not that I have anything against the time hallowed crawl, but we could use a few more adventures with a different theme, like this one.
I liked how the NPC list included some extras for the DM to flesh out. It's always nice to have an NPC name on the fly. And all the future possibilities for Corlina and Ziki are... delicious is a word I might use.
Age of Worms - A Gathering of Winds Unfortunately, I'm going to play in an AoW campaign, so I can't read these. :-( Those flying warriors who appear to be dual-wielding longswords have me very curious, though.
The Twisted Run I really didn't like this. It seemed to me like the author was trying to find every way he could to rob the characters of experience. And, there's no way I will ever run an encounter with 30 creatures. That's no fun for anyone, especially since when it's all over, they won't get a single XP for any of those dire weasels. I should also mention that having all of them be 4th level dwarven experts doesn't bend the fourth wall, it shatters it. Also, it looked to me like half the point of the Chosen of Malar template was again to screw the PCs out of experience.
Most of the NPCs, other than the 30 were-dire weasels, just seemed too high of level. I realize this adventure was written for 17th level characters, but a 13th level dwarven wizard is a hero in his own right, and should have been given something of a backstory. Same with the *unnamed* 10th level dwarven rangers! The goblin/cleric encounter showed some potential, but still had the same problem: Why are a pack of 9th level rogues "scavengers?" This seems like an excellent opportunity for such high level characters to show off their cool abilities and rest, but there were too many of the goblins, and they weren't given a good enough reason to be there.
The 2 traps in area 8 seemed, well, pointless. I guess they're there so the rogue can shine, but I don't get why, logically, they would put them there.
The Forge Cavern is the one encounter in the whole adventure I thought was cool. Again, it doesn't make much sense why or how the azer got there, and I believe he should be CR 18 (2 base + 2 nonassociated (so 1) + 15 associated = 18), and the trap seemed excessive (3d10 fire damage a round plus burning any scrolls the PCs have out, for 10 minutes!), but I will probably yoink this encounter for my own use at some point. I'd probably reduce the fire damage to 3d6 and have it last for 1d4+4 rounds instead of 100 rounds. I would also have altered his spell selection. 17th level azer sorcerer and only 3 of his spells are fire based?
Dungeoncraft Nothing here I haven't seen before/currently use, but it's all solid advice. Can't wait for part 3.
Familiar Creatures with New Faces Again, seen it before, but it is a time honored traditional weapon to use against metagamers, as well as a way to seemingly create wicked cool monsters on the fly. I generally go a little more in depth than this article did (the Calendrian Mass I would make a magical beast or outsider, the Dream Spiders would become extraplanar magical beasts, etc.), but just using the stats as is with some minor modifications, though lazy, is good enough.
Black Sheep So. Funny. ^_^ The first entry I read was #14. Hehehehe.... this list will definitely see use and be expanded on.
Malek - Evil Entombed This guy is... weird. Also, I would have expected a higher intelligence and lower wisdom, but eh. I'm glad to see that the second D&D movie uses some actually D&D lore, even if it is just Jubilex.
Creative Director
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The Goin' Postal Ad on p 17 It's been discussed in a recent thread, but I gotta ask - what on oerth made you decide to put this ad in the magazine, especially next to the "Challenge Accepted" letter? o_O?
When we do a pagination for the magazine, the location of the ad is determined by where the advertiser wants the ad to appear and (to a lesser degree) by where there's room. We often don't actaully see the ads themselves till the magazine is going to print and we go through the IRIS proofs. And in any event, the content of the ads themselves are left entirely to the advertiser.
In short, ads can sometimes be inapropriately placed, as the case may be here, but there's really nothing that can be done.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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The Twisted Run I really didn't like this. It seemed to me like the author was trying to find every way he could to rob the characters of experience. And, there's no way I will ever run an encounter with 30 creatures. That's no fun for anyone, especially since when it's all over, they won't get a single XP for any of those dire weasels. I should also mention that having all of them be 4th level dwarven experts doesn't bend the fourth wall, it shatters it. Also, it looked to me like half the point of the Chosen of Malar template was again to screw the PCs out of experience.Most of the NPCs, other than the 30 were-dire weasels, just seemed too high of level. I realize this adventure was written for 17th level characters, but a 13th level dwarven wizard is a hero in his own right, and should have been given something of a backstory. Same...
This is a good point, and something I also struggle with in making high level adventures. At low levels, the PC's struggle against BBEG's in the 8-10th level range. These guys run small kingdoms and guilds, they're preeminent practioners in some arcane field, or they command the largest legion of goblins in the area. Each one is a unique snowflake. Then, all of a sudden, when you get to be 10th-12th level, you start running into nameless flunkies that are more powerful than these evil linchpins you once fought against. Why exactly is that 10th level wizard working for the archfiend when he could have his own tower and evil scheme? The problem gets worse at the highest levels. Disposable 16th level fighters are hard to swallow.
That being said, they're clearly an important element of the game. A giant doesn't provide the same play experience as a high level fighter. Any suggestions?
Sebastian
Disposable 16th level fighters are hard to swallow.
That being said, they're clearly an important element of the game. A giant doesn't provide the same play experience as a high level fighter. Any suggestions?
IMC, any creature that's CR 10 or higher (as a rough number) is not a 'disposable' character (as well as all the gentry NPCs that are actually very low level). Once the PCs are fighting creatures at this level, they're fighting characters with backstories as diverse (or more so) than the PCs themselves. It's more work, but so is everything once you get past mid-levels. Epic? I don't wanna even talk about epic.
Nevertheless, I like to include low level flunkies, regardless of the PC's levels. Even if they're lvl 18, they'll still have to get through the 2nd level warriors standing guard duty at the lich-king's palace. How they deal with such inferior opponents makes or breaks them as heroes. Heck, I've had a major villain in a campaign be 6th level at the time the party caught up to him. They were 12th level. It was still a hard encounter, because combat wasn't the answer. (think of it like a Lex Luthor/Superman confrontation)
When we do a pagination for the magazine, the location of the ad is determined by where the advertiser wants the ad to appear and (to a lesser degree) by where there's room. We often don't actaully see the ads themselves till the magazine is going to print and we go through the IRIS proofs. And in any event, the content of the ads themselves are left entirely to the advertiser.
In short, ads can sometimes be inapropriately placed, as the case may be here, but there's really nothing that can be done.
If any of the Reality Simulations folks read up here, just a heads up: This ad only attracts juvenile males. Women and mature guys are repulsed by this kind of thing, as it reinforces a stereotype we try hard to avoid. Some of the other RSI ads have been funny, but not this one.
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If any of the Reality Simulations folks read up here, just a heads up: This ad only attracts juvenile males. Women and mature guys are repulsed by this kind of thing, as it reinforces a stereotype we try hard to avoid. Some of the other RSI ads have been funny, but not this one.
I couldn't agree more. The previous RSI ads have all been clever and made me chuckle, I had to wonder what the heck they were thinking when they made this month's...
Then, all of a sudden, when you get to be 10th-12th level, you start running into nameless flunkies that are more powerful than these evil linchpins you once fought against. A giant doesn't provide the same play experience as a high level fighter. Any suggestions?
Sebastian
SUGGESTIONS TO ADDRESS THIS PROBLEM:
Get rid of the flanking bonus and give each creature in melee a +1 bonus per ally in the melee beyond the first. In other words, if you're surrounded by six goblins, they're each +5 to hit.
Creatures beyond one that are grappling with one target get to add all their grappling bonuses together, cumulatively.
Adopt the massive damage rule from D20 modern, with a twist:
If you take your CON score in damage from a single attack, you have to make a DC = Damage taken Fortitude save or be knocked to -1 hit points. Each creature size category greater than medium gets to add +4 to their effective CON score for this rule. Small creatures are CON -2, Tiny -4, etc.
What do cops do when they're faced with an expert martial artist and they don't have a taser? Call for back up and dog pile the guy. Even Bruce Lee can't resist 8 guys going up against him at the same time. Sure, he may break an arm or two and knock out a few, but even he can't breathe when six dudes are sitting on his chest.
What do a platoon of 1st level fighters do when they're faced with a swordsmaster who is taking them all out easily? Same thing.....grapple and light weapons through the visor.
When we do a pagination for the magazine... In short, ads can sometimes be inapropriately placed, as the case may be here, but there's really nothing that can be done.
If any of the Reality Simulations folks read up here, just a heads up: This ad only attracts juvenile males. Women and mature guys are repulsed by this kind of thing, as it reinforces a stereotype we try hard to avoid. Some of the other RSI ads have been funny, but not this one.
With respect, that sort of add generates sales. The problem is not with the advertiser, it's with the population that continues to buy products advertised in such a way.
Like it or not, it attracts more buyers than it repels.
Regards all,
Jack
PS -- I'm outraged also. Personally, I won't buy from companies that perpetuate harmful stereotypes and images like this.
Murder in Oakbridge
This was absolutely a great adventure. It's awesome to see adventures that aren't site based once in a while, and this particular adventure gave a great "template" for how to produce a murder mystery.
Age of Worms - A Gathering of Winds
You'll like it. I won't say anything to prevent any spoilers.
The Twisted Run
Well, first, the maps for this were SWEET! Very nice looking.
There were a few things I didn't like. One of them certainly was pitting the PCs against 30 creatures at once, and they won't get 1 point of XP from the encounter.
I thought the hooks were kind of weak to be honest. That's OK, though - I'm just as likely in any given adventure to use my own hooks.
More importantly, though, I couldn't help but thinking the adventure felt... forced.
Also, with this adventure and the recently concluded three parter by Eric Boyd, I have to say that I've seen enough of Malar for a while. ;)
Also, it looked to me like half the point of the Chosen of Malar template was again to screw the PCs out of experience.
On second thought, the template actually doesn't cause the PCs to get less experience; it's just that all the experience they would earn from the Beast of Malar (and more!) is held in anth-Malar. Which makes that part of the adventure bearable, but still doesn't excuse the wereweasels.
SUGGESTIONS TO ADDRESS THIS PROBLEM:
Get rid of the flanking bonus and give each creature in melee a +1 bonus per ally in the melee beyond the first. In other words, if you're surrounded by six goblins, they're each +5 to hit.
Creatures beyond one that are grappling with one target get to add all their grappling bonuses together, cumulatively.
I like both of those suggestions. I think I will house rule them in my next campaign.
I like both of those suggestions. I think I will house rule them in my next campaign.
SUGGESTIONS TO ADDRESS THIS PROBLEM:
Get rid of the flanking bonus and give each creature in melee a +1 bonus per ally in the melee beyond the first. In other words, if you're surrounded by six goblins, they're each +5 to hit.
Creatures beyond one that are grappling with one target get to add all their grappling bonuses together, cumulatively.
Don't forget the "help another" action, 6 goblins and it's a +10 to hit for one of them even without the flanking....
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I like both of those suggestions. I think I will house rule them in my next campaign.
SUGGESTIONS TO ADDRESS THIS PROBLEM:
Get rid of the flanking bonus and give each creature in melee a +1 bonus per ally in the melee beyond the first. In other words, if you're surrounded by six goblins, they're each +5 to hit.
Creatures beyond one that are grappling with one target get to add all their grappling bonuses together, cumulatively.
These are good suggestions, but I must have failed in communicating my issue. It's not the mechanics of flunkies I worry about. I'm more concerned with the believability of having nameless high level flunkies in the campaign world. In my campaigns, mid to high level NPC's are the movers and shakers of the world. The idea of them assembling in a flunkie squad doesn't jive with that. Maybe it's just a matter of adding some creativity on my side as the DM. In Attack of the Clones, there are a lot of nameless jedi getting the flunkie treatment, but each one looks distinct - they aren't uniform like the droids/stormtroopers.
Sebastian
Why is no one getting even one drop of XP again? I realize that thirty CR 6 dudes and one CR 15 dude are not as tough as say one CR 17 dragon or outsider, but I really don't see the fuss in calling those thirty monsters the one big CR 16 encounter they are (if I'm doing my weasel math correctly; DMG 49). It might be slightly less because the relative strength of the characters and the fact the room is pretty enclosed. I see this as the room where the wizards, and fighter-types will shine.
You got weasels on your face, now try and concentrate,
GGG
Ok, I feel this discussion has progressed to the point where I can chime in on the Twisted Run.
It seems that several people have two major beefs with this adventure, firstly, that there are quite a few high-level NPCs will little backstory or development, and secondly, that the adventure included a large scale encounter that will be difficult to run and will give the PCs no experience for defeating it.
Both of these are valid complaints. I'll start by addressing the second one first. I believe that one of the most enjoyable parts of playing a high-level character is, every once in a while, getting to beat up on a bunch of foes that once would have been a challenge for me, but now are just road kill. Blowing through 30 mooks, while not so rewarding on the experience end of things, is good for the game, every once in awhile. Considering the relative power levels involved, I personally would not have too much trouble running the encounter, as many of the mechanics could be easily simplified when the PCs average combat damage likely kills these guys outright. And if you don’t like this particular encounter or think it is a waste of time, it is easy (and self-contained) enough to remove.
And as for the weasels all being experts 4, I don't really understand this complaint. Sure, it’s a little unrealistic to assume that they are all the same class and level, but the PCs have no real way of knowing that (unless you tell them). They will probably assume the weasels are low-level guys who all have approximately the same fighting capabilities, and probably share the same stat block for simplicity's sake (which is true).
What is so unbelievable about finding a bunch of low-level servants of the enemy in the middle of his stronghold?
Now, I sympathize with the desire to see a more complex backstory for some of the anth-Malar's lieutenants, but there is little we can do on that score. When it comes to what we put in an adventure, our priorities usually go something like this: 1. Nuts and bolts story/plot material to make the adventure interesting and keep it running smoothly. 2. The necessary information to allow DMs to run the adventure easily (that is, stat blocks, new rules information, new magic items, etc.), 3. Monster tactics and cool side notes, things that either help the DM but aren't strictly necessary, or cool add-ons the players can find that will make the adventure more fun. 4. Adventure/NPC backstory that, while interesting and useful for the DM to know, probably will never be discovered by the players during the adventure.
Unfortunately NPC backstory almost always falls into category 4, and when we go to cut down the adventure to make it fit in the allotted space (which we almost always have to do), that kind of thing is the first to go. It would be nice if we had the space available to tell you about the azer's home on the elemental plane of fire, or the dwarven wizard's old grudge against a cleric of Selune, or each ranger's favorite color, but, unfortunately, there are just too many other important things for us to cover. And in a high-level adventure, where the stat-blocks consume a significant amount of space, we almost never have room.
If you, as the DM, find these pieces of information necessary for your players to enjoy the adventure (which I completely understand), then, especially at high levels, you will often need to read over the adventure and come up with the necessary backstory yourself. I submit that is probably easier and more fun that coming up with all their stat blocks.
If you are looking for a quick, high-level adventure to fill in on a night when you are unprepared anyway, The Twisted Run is an excellent choice. Everything you need is there. If you are looking for an adventure to slot into an upcoming, epic, story-driven campaign arc, the Twisted Run is still an excellent choice, it just will require some work to adapt. But if you are planning out a story-driven campaign arc, you probably wouldn't have it any other way.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Now, I sympathize with the desire to see a more complex backstory for some of the anth-Malar's lieutenants, but there is little we can do on that score. When it comes to what we put in an adventure, our priorities usually go something like this: 1. Nuts and bolts story/plot material...
Man, I must have rolled a natural 1 on my diplomacy check; what I said was not intended to be a criticism of your work specifically. I haven't gotten a copy of 129 yet, but even if I had, I'm guessing that your adventure was not any different from every other high level adventure with nameless high level mooks. I don't expect Dungeon to put in big complex back stories or have different stat blocks for similar NPC's. It would take up way too much room and would slow down combat way too much.
I was trying to talk more generally about the problem of high level nameless npc's. I agree that it's fun to whup up on these guys that you once cowered from (I remember the first time I encountered a beholder in 3e - as a 17th level character I trashed it so fast I couldn't believe how weak they were), but as a DM, I also worry that such encounters stretch the credibility of the game world.
Probably I should just start a new thread in the general forum.
Sebastian
Why is no one getting even one drop of XP again? I realize that thirty CR 6 dudes and one CR 15 dude are not as tough as say one CR 17 dragon or outsider, but I really don't see the fuss in calling those thirty monsters the one big CR 16 encounter they are (if I'm doing my weasel math correctly; DMG 49).
Because XP in 3.5 is calculated based on the individual CR of creatures, not the altogether encounter level. Sure, it's easy enough to house rule the experience, but the point is that the encounter as written, by the raw, awards only XP for the one CR 15 creature.
One funny thing though: not 3 days before I saw the issue, a friend and I were talking about lycanthropes and the question came up, "What would be worse than a were-dire weasel?"
I guess the answer is 30 of them.
Why is no one getting even one drop of XP again? I realize that thirty CR 6 dudes and one CR 15 dude are not as tough as say one CR 17 dragon or outsider, but I really don't see the fuss in calling those thirty monsters the one big CR 16 encounter they are (if I'm doing my weasel math correctly; DMG 49).Because XP in 3.5 is calculated based on the individual CR of creatures, not the altogether encounter level. Sure, it's easy enough to house rule the experience, but the point is that the encounter as written, by the raw, awards only XP for the one CR 15 creature.
For the record, you can treat a horde of small bad guys as one (i.e. single) creature (DMG 49), which I believe is where the author/editors are getting their math from, hence EL 17 for the room. I seriously doubt any real DM or game designer would go out of their way to screw the players anymore than they already do. :)
I mean come on, where's the challenge?
GGG
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Ooh, good point, GGG. If you want a rules-mechanic reference, the Mobs of SCHC and the DMGII would be perfectely suited for addressing the 30 wereweasels (give or take a few, books not with me....). I believe the CR would actually be around 12-13 for the wereweasel mob, it's only one creature for DM adjudication, and lord knows it can wreak some havoc. If you have access to the Mob template, it might not be a terrible switch if you're really opposed to the horde of little CRs.
Personally, I agree with Jeremy in that it is ncie, sometimes, for the players to flex some muscle (and for the GM to roll initiative in blocks of five ;)).
Well what CR are those guys 6? 30 of them is a EL-14 encounter not much but heh, and they should feel lik conan.
I'm a realms junky but I will admit that Malar is not one of my favorite bad guys, there has been ton of focus on Lycanthropes recently (have you read Champions of Valor).
As far as background, I really use dungeon for the stats, maps, mechanics, then I string the adventures together for a campaign. I actually like short adventures. Its so, so Ed Greenwood.
For the record, you can treat a horde of small bad guys as one (i.e. single) creature (DMG 49), which I believe is where the author/editors are getting their math from, hence EL 17 for the room. I seriously doubt any real DM or game designer would go out of their way to screw the players anymore than they already do. :)
I mean come on, where's the challenge?
GGG
That clears things up nicely under the rules. I guess I should apologize a bit to Mr. Upchurch. He has a better hand on the rules than I gave him credit for (with the very minor miscalculation of Fittzz's CR unless I'm again mistaken), and it's also very obvious that he's well read on Realmslore. Plus high level adventures are a pain to write in the first place, as I've already said. The adventure still feels forced to me however, but in the end this is only my opinion. On the note of the mob rules in the DMG II (thank you Magagumo), if I ever were to run this adventure, that's what I'd use.
Also: What's the SCHC?
SCHC = Shackled City Hard Cover (I think??)
SCHC = Shackled City Hard Cover (I think??)
Thanks. :-)
Murder in OakbridgeThis was absolutely a great adventure. It's awesome to see adventures that aren't site based once in a while, and this particular adventure gave a great "template" for how to produce a murder mystery.
Hear hear.