My PCs just arrived at Blackwall Keep in our game last night (Eberron AoW Session 11). The party left Diamond Lake in the morning and with a packmule as their slowest mount they covered 16 miles in day 1 (random encounter was a small group of pilgrims). On day 2 a group of halfling farmers pass their camp as they finish the last 2 miles of their trip. It is late morning when they arrive at Blackwall Keep.
The ranger and rogue scout ahead and are undetected by the lizardfolk. They relay the battlefield to the party, who decide to fall back a quarter mile and get into a defensible position. Allustan leaves for help and one of the wizards in the party sends his hawk familiar to watch the field for preparations of battle.
In the evening the lizardfolk appear to be preparing the assault. The party, on horseback, assembles just beyond where they can be spotted. They are coming from hills north of the keep and the lizardfolk are south of the keep. On the first round of the attack the lizardfolk assemble into their 6 groups with 4 attacking and 2 staying behind (the ones with the druid and warrior). The ranger, with his eyes of the eagle, sees the group with the warrior and the group with the druid. He spotted the snake around the druid's arms and the party assumed it was the BBEG magic user.
Rather than move to the keep and defend it, the party decided to use the first two rounds to buff and then headed directly to the druid. By the third round the other lizardfolk were at the keep. 10 of the soldiers assembled outside to shoot the approaching lizardfolk. Before the session I prepared an excel spreadsheet to help with this battle. The spreadsheet included rolls for the archers above and rolls for the lizardfolk attempting to break the door. The archers did a horrible job, only killing 3 of the 20 lizardfolk before the 2 groups scaled the wall and made it to the balcony ledge. All of the garrison soldiers on the ledge died the following two rounds.
Meanwhile, the party focused on the druid. The druid was 150 feet away from the keep, and using a very large battlemat we were able to do this with tactical movement using horses (minis on poker chips). The druid had created a small moat of mud to create a small defendable "island" during the siege. (The party spotted this earlier in the day btw). The cleric thought it was a trick and used an area dispel magic on the moat to no avail. The wizard summoned a hippogriff to grapple the druid but the druid kept hitting it on aoo's. The warforged paladin failed to jump over the mud and was stuck. The swashbuckler made it and attacked the mooks instead of the druid. On the next round the wizard hit the keep with his only other 3rd level spell left and ended up killing 7 lizardfolk. At this point Kushak's group moved up to the keep.
After a few rounds the druid's mooks were killed while the druid did withdrawal after withdrawal, moving farther and farther from the keep. The party spotted wands (which to this point had not been used) so they followed. They finally dispatched the druid in round 11. By this time the lizardfolk had busted the door open and were inside slaughtering the remaining warriors.
Eventually the party made it in the keep. I was a little upset that they completely ignored the keep and went for the druid. They assumed the warriors would defend the keep longer. The party decided to go upstairs where they found a few more lizardfolk. Then they went downstairs where they found the remaining lizardfolk with Kushak.
Now before the battle the paladin and cleric assured the party that they could heal the warriors afterwards. This also upset me a little bit, so I decided to have all the lizardfolk CDG all warriors. When the party met up with Kushak in the basement kitchen they found dead bodies being eaten by the lizardfolk.
This was round 18. All of the warriors in the keep were dead.
I decided to have Kushak, who is N, curse at the party in common and say something along the lines of "You will pay for the death of our children!" The paladin picked up on this and decided to use detect evil, finding no evil on these lizardfolk.
First question for everyone. During this battle, is it an evil act to CDG helpless foes? Our party is having an out-of-character "debate" (more of a heated argument) over this. My 2 cents were "Hey, you guys didn't exactly use nonlethal force on the 22 dead lizardfolk out there. You had no intention of stablizing them."
Second question. Do you consider cannibalism during battle to be an evil act or a neutral act?
The paladin then asked the lizardfolk to drop their weapons. Kushak responded by ordering his remaining 4 lizardfolk to stop fighting, but no one dropped their weapons.
The paladin asked why the lizardfolk attacked the keep. Kushak told them a little bit about the worms ("Your witches will burn for infesting our tribe!"). To make the lizardfolk not seem so much like the agressors, I decided to throw in a story about a small lizardfolk scouting party that was killed by a garrison patrol. This action was the final straw that caused the assault. This seemed to satisfy the paladin player, as he would have been upset if the lizardfolk assaulted the keep without investigating the dragon's accusations. The party then asked about Marzena and found out that she was kidnapped.
The session ended there. Two of my players are very upset that the lizardfolk were eating the warriors. One is a cleric from the Diamond Lake garrison; he recognized a few of the fallen soldiers. They want to kill the lizardfolk right away. The paladin is arguing that they aren't evil. He wants to escort the lizardfolk back to the lair and try to exchange them for the hostages.
For the sake of party stability I don't think I'm going to allow a "peaceful" solution. The lizardfolk are going to ask the party to leave the keep while they secure it. If they refuse they will attack the party. Even with charm spells, the lizardfolk will not show the party the way to their lair.
All in all this was a great battle, I just wish my players approached it differently. How would you have DM'd this situation? Should I have done the CDGs? Should I have left a few soldiers alive to interrogate later? If I had followed the suggestion in the adventure I could have used a "stalemate", but I wanted to try simulating a 50+ man battle. It took 3 hours, but we did it. We didn't use "mass battle" rules or anything from Heroes of Battle. The spreadsheet easily resolved all of the rolls I needed for attacks and damage.
Oh yeah, right before the session ended I had one of the players hear a scratching at the only remaining sealed door...
Alignment questions are tough, especially in battle.
OK, starting with the lizardfolk... First off, technically, they are not cannibals. A cannibal eats his own species - the lizardfolk were eating humans. However, within the D&D context, this is absolutely an evil act. It shows a basic, and hideous, lack of compassion for their opponents - regarding them as food, not as beings in their own right. The lizards doing a coup de grace is a bit more questionable as far as good vs. evil, but it does show that they were in a ruthless battle, and not taking prisoners. They should, in such a case, not expect anyone to accept their surrender (in fact, if they're that extreme, they shouldn't have offered it in the first place. Killing prisoners is usually the prelude to a no-surrender battle.)
The paladin, in such a case, is trapped in the frequent collision between law and good. A good, saintly person can still show mercy, and accept a surrender. However, by any sane laws of battle, the lizardfolk have placed themselves beyond the pale, and deserve nothing short of execution (but no desecration or eating them afterwards, of course.)
As to your DMing, I think going to the CDG and then eating the dead was a big error. It upped the stakes considerably, and has made any potential peace deals with the lizardfolk much more difficult. You point out that the party wasn't trying to stabilize the lizardfolk (perfectly acceptable in the middle of battle.) Well, no one was stabilizing the guards either - let them bleed to death. Or, if there were guards or players stabilizing other guards, devote one or two lizards to doing the same for their people - show they care about their comrades too. That would make them a bit more sympathetic, as well.
Given the situation as described, and providing the paladin had not already made any promises as to the lizards' safety, I would have no problem with him executing them. But it does, in large part, depend on the details of the surrender. It sounds like they have already made a deal that includes the lizards' safety. In that case, going back on the deal would be wrong for the paladin, with all the usual violation penalties. (However, note that I would not impose penalties on the paladin for having made the deal in the first place - he's choosing good over law, perfectly acceptable.)
Drew Garrett
Wow... lots of stuff.
...is it an evil act to CDG helpless foes?
No. Per the RAW, the only way to use CDG is against a helpless foe. CDG is not an evil act in and of itself, and I don't consider that the lizardfolk actions were evil... brutal, maybe, but not evil.
Do you consider cannibalism during battle to be an evil act or a neutral act?
This question might start a lot of debate, but I don't think that lizardfolk eating humans is cannibalism. I don't consider lizardfolk eating humans to be an evil act, either.
They want to kill the lizardfolk right away. The paladin is arguing that they aren't evil.
Enemies don't have to be evil, and evil characters don't have to be enemies of good. A group of nuetrally-aligned enemies attacked an outpost of the Free City. There is nothing "evil" about either side... such is the way of wars and battles fought over things such as domain and borders. But, there is no denying that they just killed scores of citizens of the Free City, which is punishable by death, reguadless of their alignment. Of course, circumstances can give other options.
What you should decide is what options are left to the party. Is it legal for an adventuring party to negotiate hostage trade in the name of the Free City, or are the PCs expected to turn over the lizardfolk for trial? If there are no laws that protect non-humans in the case of war, then are prisoners expected to be taken? (Notice the lack of cells in the keep?)
Should I have done the CDGs?
It does seem that you only did it to spite the players, so... maybe not. But it does leave some role playing oportunities and some tough choices for the players.
Thanks for the reply. Thinking back I'm trying to see if the actions represented a neutral army of lizardfolk lead by an evil druid and a neutral warrior (under the orders of a chaotic evil leader).
I can see where the act of eating their fallen foes is considered evil. Perhaps they were under the orders of the lizard king to do this. They are not used to battling humans, per the conversion notes from Keith Baker for Eberron. They are used to eating their prey. Would this one act modify their alignment to evil?
The lizardfolk did take prisoners in the first battle. I also showed that the tribe was attacked first by a patrol (the lizardfolk were "trespassers" in the King's Forest). During the battle, the archers drew first blood, and the party's fireball decimated a large number of lizardfolk. Also, the party had all day to potentially contact the lizardfolk and resolve things peacefully. They could have also sent the hawk to the keep with a note, but decided against it in fear of arousing suspicion from the lizardfolk.
The party planned to attempt to stablize guards, but all of the guards were beyond help by the time the party reached them. If they really cared about the guards they should have defended the keep first IMO. I did not portray the lizardfolk healing each other because none of them are skilled at healing and they are neutral, not good. They wouldn't sacrifice themselves during the heat of battle to aide a fallen comrade.
Kushek will not surrender. The party options are fight or flight. The paladin laid down his weapons and asked them to do the same, prompting a cease fire for a brief parlay. To be honest, I don't want to derail the adventure by allowing the party to go into the Mistmarsh with lizardfolk allies.
For other DMs who have run this, what was the outcome?
I can see where the act of eating their fallen foes is considered evil. Perhaps they were under the orders of the lizard king to do this. They are not used to battling humans, per the conversion notes from Keith Baker for Eberron. They are used to eating their prey. Would this one act modify their alignment to evil?
Let's not forget that some human tribes (mainly Polynesian/South American that I'm aware of) have performed some form of cannabilism after battle in their history. To eat ones enemy; his heart, biceps, brains, was to infuse his strength into yours and make you a stronger warrior - this act it is not evil, it is almost honouring the fallen warrior.
Of course having said that, some tribes would eat the corpses to defile their enemies. Desecrating their bodies would deny them access to the after life - this I believe to be an evil act.
So really, you can look at the eating of ones enemies in two lights if you want. But then again I'm a Libra so I always look for two sides to the coin ;)
B
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Later in the adventure, the text says that the lizard folk eat their prisoners - including lizard-men from other tribes. This isn't an eveil act for them - it's their cultural base. They are not human, and do not think like humans.
This doesn't change the reaction from the human (and elf, and dwarf, etc) characters. Remember, they're reptiles.
I agree with Big Jake. The CDG was brutal but not evil. The "cannibalism" isn't strictly accurately defined; but in any case, not evil either.
As the DM, you had every right, IMO, to be annoyed about the party's callous and single-minded focus on the druid while allowing the keep to be overrun. I think it was fine for you to have none of the keep's soldiers alive by the time the party arrived. Had they honestly been concerned for their welfare, they would've had a different, more urgent strategy for the soldier's rescue.
Really, this is when the paladin's moral dilemma should've started in the first place. Why didn't he immediately move to attack/defend the keep - even if it meant doing so alone while his determined party attacked the druid group? As a DM, I would've been planning some sort of penalty to the paladin at that point.
I think your error occurred by drawing such a hard line in the sand, so to speak, by portraying the lizardmen as so aggressive, brutal, and "quasi-evil". It negates any real chance for a logical alliance of any sort, either now or later in adventure. I think this module intended the lizardmen to be portrayed in a somewhat sympathetic light - their actions are largely based on being duped by the dragon and being misunderstood by the Free City citizens. The adventure plays out much better, and with better role-playing, if at some point one or more characters takes pity on the lizardmen and their tainted eggs. But alas, I think it's too late for you. Can't unring a bell!
I'm not sure that the lizard folk would neccessarily take the time during battle to CDG every fallen foe- when one goes down, move on to the next. I also don't think they would eat their foes DURING battle. I don't know how much time there was between the death of the last warrior and the party's arrival, however.
The lizard folk do have evil leaders, and would thus be more violent and, well, evil than normal. This may not be the case if they resent the leadership, but then again, it seems that the module is intended to show them being worked into a sort of frenzy by their chieftain and his allies, although you could rule that they are only enthusiastic about the assault because of Kushak's presence. All that may seem rather aesthetic, but it could play a big role in how the reptiles act.
As stated before, CDGs and eating ones foes aren't neccessarily evil- it depends on the circumstances in both cases. Also, while the lizard folk are N, they can still feel compassion and comraderie, and thus those not immediately engaged in battle, or rushing to some position to do so, would likely try to tend to the wounded, especially since they are in a tribal warband, not a disciplined army.
However, what's done is done. Kushak won't likely surrender, and so there's probably not much of a peaceful way out of this situation for the party. Note that if the party engages in combat, the paladin doesn't have to necessarily go back on his word. He could use nonlethal damage (maybe even against his friends, just to try and stop the fight, though that probably wouldn't be wise).
The bigger problem, to me, would seem to be the impact that loosing all the soldiers will have on the adventure. You could create a secret room somewhere in the keep, probably the basement, and have some survivors hiding in their. Are they cowards? Were they planning to strike back latter? What's the exact nature of the room? That's all up to you, and may not be important. What is important is that you ahve some soldiers left to talk to the party, and steer them away from the Spawn until the end of the adventure.
The bigger problem, to me, would seem to be the impact that loosing all the soldiers will have on the adventure. You could create a secret room somewhere in the keep, probably the basement, and have some survivors hiding in their. Are they cowards? Were they planning to strike back latter? What's the exact nature of the room? That's all up to you, and may not be important. What is important is that you ahve some soldiers left to talk to the...
Use the relief garrison. The party returns to the keep after reinfrocments have arrived - while their there the reinfrocments are searching the joint for survivors or hidden enemies when screaming starts issuing from the basement...My bet is the players will be off to investigate in no time.
Use the relief garrison. The party returns to the keep after reinfrocments have arrived - while their there the reinfrocments are searching the joint for survivors or hidden enemies when screaming starts issuing from the basement...My bet is the players will be off to investigate in no time.
Right, but I was just wondering what would stop them from finding the Spawn BEFORE the relief garrison got there. It was mentioned that the party heard scratching from behind the door- I know my players would rush to investigate that. I don't think a single Spawn would be too much of a challenge (barring a little run of bad luck), but it's supposed to be. Otherwise, the party looks at each other and says, "That's it? This is the 'unkillable zombie?'" There need to be a few of the undead, which requires the relief garrison to have arrived.
As written, aren't there supposed to be about 3 of the things? I might throw in more for my group, depending on how well they've hadnled other things so far. I really want them to appreciate the threat of Kyuss and his minions.
My PCs just arrived at Blackwall Keep in our game last night (Eberron AoW Session 11). The party left Diamond Lake in the morning and with a packmule as their slowest mount they covered 16 miles in day 1 (random encounter was a small group of pilgrims). On day 2 a group of halfling farmers pass their camp as they finish the last 2 miles of their trip. It is late morning when they arrive at Blackwall Keep.
The ranger and rogue scout ahead and are undetected by the lizardfolk. They relay the battlefield to the party, who decide to fall back a quarter mile and get into a defensible position. Allustan leaves for help and one of the wizards in the party sends his hawk familiar to watch the field for preparations of battle.
In the evening the lizardfolk appear to be preparing the assault. The party, on horseback, assembles just beyond where they can be spotted. They are coming from hills north of the keep and the lizardfolk are south of the keep. On the first round of the attack the lizardfolk assemble into their 6 groups with 4 attacking and 2 staying behind (the ones with the druid and warrior). The ranger, with his eyes of the eagle, sees the group with the warrior and the group with the druid. He spotted the snake around the druid's arms and the party assumed it was the BBEG magic user.
Rather than move to the keep and defend it, the party decided to use the first two rounds to buff and then headed directly to the druid. By the third round the other lizardfolk were at the keep. 10 of the soldiers assembled outside to shoot the approaching lizardfolk. Before the session I prepared an excel spreadsheet to help with this battle. The spreadsheet included rolls for the archers above and rolls for the lizardfolk attempting to break the door. The archers did a horrible job, only killing 3 of the 20 lizardfolk before the 2 groups scaled the wall and made it to the balcony ledge. All of the garrison soldiers on the ledge died the following two rounds.
Meanwhile, the party focused on the druid. ...
I haven.t started age of worms yet so i cant give any specifics but i can offer advise from one DM to another.
first it sounds like you all had a blast. thats the main thing. the way you described what took place made me want to join your group. thats good. you shouldn't be beating yourselves up because the players did one thing and you thought they'd do something else, and the players shouldn't be upset about moral dilemmas. This sounds like a great encounter in a great adventure. The way you left it is just like a great cliff hanger from old b-movies. superb.
The solutions should be simple now because of where you left things, time is on your side you have a week to get things sorted (presuming you game once a week.) remember you have the advantage at the start of the session, you will be resetting the scene, and them moving it forward before the players get to act. so you have a lot of options
the lizard folk could ask the pcs for help
the chief lizard could give himself over to the players as hostage
the lizards have been duped, exploit that, have one of the lizards a doppleganger revealing himself and the fact that he duped the lizardmen,
perhaps the lizard men all wear magic controlling devices
have all of the lizard men collapse as if a spell has been lifted and then they come round unaware of what has happened.
have a cleric npc hiding in the keep who can a) speak with the dead and b)knows that the lizard folk have been tricked.
have one of the fallen warriors appear as a shade and set things straight.
remember this is fantasy anything can happen and should
Your players didn't make the wrong choices they just made different ones. you didn't do any thing wrong either players have to realise the cost of not going down path A as apposed to path B
now i've rambled on but there it is, every one had fun and that should make you all happy and fuzzy all over
Phil.T
My two cents:
First question... is it an evil act to CDG helpless foes?
If they are being punished for legitimate transgressions, I think you could argue that their execution is OK (not evil). There are other questions, but I'll skip that :)
Second question. Do you consider cannibalism during battle to be an evil act or a neutral act?
Harder question. Why can a lion eat a person and be Neutral, while a person is usually judged evil for doing so?
I would rule that killing humans for food is evil -- killing in battle and eating the conveniently-available corpses isn't (reprehensible though it may be to us).
For what it's worth,
Jack
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I agree with most of the sentiments here.
The CdGs are pretty justifiable. The lizardfolk have a more primitive society, and the guards transgressed against them. It may seem brutish to a leagally codified human society, but that doesn't mean that it's not the societal norm for the scaly ones...especially, as noted above, when you consider the evil bend of the leadership.
As for the eating... I have the same 'would this really happen during the fight' question that Saern voiced, but it already being done, I don't think it's evil for them to chow down. They aren't killing the humans for food, they are killing them for retribution. That being accomplished, the cold, reptilian portion of the brain looks around and says, well, meat is meat.
As for the delima of the party in general and paladin in specific loosing sight of the keep and letting it get overrun...well, that's what makes this your adventure path. On the one hand, the party didn't save the keep from being overrun. But how much culpability do they have for a group of soldiers? It's not like they let a bunch of orphans be slaughered...these were men paid to fight and potentially die out in that godforsaken mire. It's something for the bards to sing about.
Overall, though, it is true that the party made a bad decision. They were so focused on the battle, they won it but lost the war. And it's something that should definitely come back up when when Allustanm gets back with reinforcements "How could the slaughter be this complete??" Maybe some of the souls who died that day will come back as unrestful spirits driven to replay the fall on the battlements...
'The specter of the soldier looks down the wall "They're scaling us! The'll be up in any moment". It's eyes looking into the world of the past widen and the dread on his face is replaced with relief "Look, here come some reinforcements to help us! Wait why aren't they coming up here?? Oh, gods, we're being overrun!" The apparition screams in pain as the memory of a club swings down on his head, driving him to this terrible oblivion.'
Excellent gavgoyle....
and that same shade can then wail pointing into the heart of the Mistmasrsh "help them..... save them....our brothers have been taken" or something to that effect.
Stick a smashed back door in the keep and voila! adventure back on track with the PCs heading to the enclave. or the players later find out that the prisoners were taken under a shroud of mist from a fog spell. They weren't watching the front of the keep anyway.
Allustan could bring a cleric with the rienforcements who could comune with the dead to find out more about the prisoners.
The only thing i would have done different in my running of the adventure would be to not roll for all of the NPC in the battle. You would have had far more flexibility if you had narrated the flow of the battle from either the players somewhat distant perspective or using cut scences like a movie would. Sometimes leaving your story to chance is well a dicey thing....heh heh
remember you are in control of the game you don't have to justify a hit on a Npc with the roll of a dice.
Phil. T
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first off, a hearty well done for running that entire battle. while phillp t.'s point is dead on (i generally stage battles to serve the plot line), i ran a few like that when i was a young dm & well appreciate the trouble you went to; and believe me, your players do also. you ran a great session.
secondly, you're a true dungeon master. the fact that your stressing so much after such an excellent evening of adventure proves it even more that the trouble you went to prepare it.
there are some great ideas in the other posts on this thread, but i'm absolutely convinced you'd have found a solution without them.
bravo........keep it up..
Thanks for the advice everyone. I know eating victims during combat may not seem realistic, but it's more of a battle morale booster. The lizardfolk in the kitchen had several rounds before the party entered, giving them enough time for a quick ceremonial bite into their prey. I may have made it difficult for a peaceful solution in the end, but I'll just have to do some good roleplaying with Hisska later in the adventure.
Tonight's our next session (#12) so we'll see what happens. During our off-session emails the players have been discussing what they want to do next.
The lizardfolk are giving the party two options: fight or flight. The lizardfolk intend to destroy the keep. They do not trust the party and will not aide them. One of the hero characters is a psion and with a successful detect thoughts he found out that the lizardfolk have faith that the dragon Ilthane will protect their eggs.
At the start of this session the party is going to fight the lizardfolk and kill them. The party has stated that they want to investigate the basement afterwards.
Since there is only 1 spawn of kyuss instead of 3, and since my party is made of seven 5th level characters (effectively 7th level) I have bumped up the spawn to 8 HD. Its extra feat is Ability focus (cause fear) and I'm replacing its toughness feat with Ability Focus (Kyuss's gift). I put the extra ability point into charisma, bumping both DCs to 17. This should easily frighten away everyone in the party except for the cleric and paladin. The paladin is a warforged, so he doesn't need to fear the worms infesting him, but without the rest of the party I think he'll want to retreat from the keep.
Although the lizardfolk CDG'd the warriors, none of the lizardfolk have received a CDG. There will definately be a few who stablized, so if the party flees the keep they will find an overwhelming battle if they return. The party will need to decide if they want to go after Marzena, who could hold the key to the mystery, or protect Allustan's reinforcements. I'm going to warn them before they open the basement door that some things were not meant to be open.
Does this sound fair? I have another hour to make up my mind.
If all else fails they can roll up new characters. Maybe they could be Free City (Sharn) friends of Marzena who receive a summons from Allustan?
Right, but I was just wondering what would stop them from finding the Spawn BEFORE the relief garrison got there. It was mentioned that the party heard scratching from behind the door- I know my players would rush to investigate that. I don't think a single Spawn would be too much of a challenge (barring a little run of bad luck), but it's supposed to be. Otherwise, the party looks at each other and says, "That's it? This is the 'unkillable zombie?'" There need to be a few of the undead, which requires the relief garrison to have arrived.
Don't have them map the keep as if its a dungeon. Players are conditioned by experience to explore anything they are formally mapping but usually won't bother unless you tell them to start or they are formally entering the Dungeon. If you don't make them map the keep they will assume its a mundane keep and not bother exploring the thing from top to bottom - after all why waste game time going through the underclothes of poor soldiers. Plus this stuff is somebodys and should go to their next of kin
Also there is no scratching on the door. There is an Undead standing absolutely still in the room just as its been standing that way for what must be months. If it where to scratch on the door the door would open as a Lizardman has unlocked it in the attack. The Undead - being infinitly patient won't bother to check the door until after your PCs have departed.
Coup de Grace is evil, eating sentient beings is evil.
The problem with all of the arguments above is that they apply "imaginary constructed relativism" (i made this term up).
The extention of the reasons that these acts aren't evil creates the "logical" conclusion that any act that can be explained by cutural or racial predisposition is NOT evil. Also if all actions are relative there is no reason to define evil in the game.
In the real world "evil" is a moral constant - at least for those people who belive in evil... Cutting the head off of a helpless bank robber is evil, eating him in front of the bank patrons is evil and insane...
You may make the argument that CDGing a vile enemy promotes the greater good - this may be acceptable in extreme circumstances (mass murder, serial killer, sociopath etc) certainly killing off fallen warriors and eating them is not this circumstance...
Killing a sentient creature for the purpose if eating them is always evil.
The lizard men comitted evil acts - does this make them evil? Certainly it wouold shift their alignment temporarily (or permanently) - Should the paladin avenge the deaths of the fallen and partially eaten - he most certainly should!
Sooooo? What happened?
Here's an excerpt from an email sent to one of the absent players:
"In the meantime, you guys easily slaughtered the Kushak and then investigated the door. Everyone volunteered to have Bel'ric the swashbuckler be the front line guy to open the barricade. A worm infested zombie scared the crap out of Bel'ric, Vallen, Taz and Aldrich; you were forced to run far, far way. It threw worms at Jaden, prompting all of the "fleshies" (Jaden, Doc & Caliban) to move out of LOS. Sledge the warforged paladin bull rushed the zombie and the zombie then bull rushed him back. The zombie did a withdrawal to position himself closer to the victims for his worms. A fatal mistake, for the Doc succeeded on a "destroy undead" check (using his halberd).
Aldrich the ranger found the tracks of the lizardfolk and prisoners and lead the party into the swamp. After a few failed attempts at navigating around the marshland, the party needed some rest. While everyone was asleep (save the warforged), a giant snake wrapped around one of the horses and dragged him into deep water.
You found the lair 23 miles from the keep. Mysteriously there are no guards at the entrance you find, but you do spy 2 sleeping half-bird half-women. You manage to avoid them, but Vallen is grabbed by a killer vine and almost choked to death. Bel'ric manages to free him.
While you're waiting for a divine vigor to heal Vallen, two lizardfolk guards discover the party. Bel'ric moves to see three more lizardfolk stroking some weird fertility eggs in a nearby resting room and decides to tumble around everyone and get up in their grills. They manage to do a bit of damage but overall they are downed quickly (3 rounds).
Another room of 5 lizardfolk are found, this time they are all holding weapons and hiding, aware of the party. Again, Bel'ric gets up into the fray, goating them to stay and fight rather than grab reinforcements. 3 rounds later and they are goners too.
Bel'ric has taken the majority of damage so far, and the Doc asks him to hold back the next time to spare the healing. The next room also sports 5 more lizardfolk, but this time Bel'ric moves in cautiously. One of the lizardfolk escapes into the bird women room. Two beautiful songs later and the weak willed fighters (again, Taz, Vallen, Bel'ric and Aldrich) are enchanted and walk towards the harpies.
The Doc snaps you out of it by casting a silence spell. The harpies flee into a hole in the ceiling and the last lizardfolk is killed.
No sign of the prisoners yet. You do find some cool swag in the harpy lair though (a circlet of persuasion and another pair of boots of striding and springing)."
As you all can see, the 8 HD zombie was easy to take down. The warforged paladin was immune to pretty much everything it could dish out and the wizard stayed out of range to pepper it with scorching ray and magic missile. The fact that it was 8 HD made it a little scarier. The cleric tried a few times to turn it with no luck. The worms scared the crap out of all of the players except the guy running the warforged paladin.
In the next session I think they're going to head into area 7 first. They are expecting a black dragon and during downtime emails they are discussing ways to fight it. What they'll get is the half-dragon lt, Kotabas. The party has already used up a number of spells on the lizardfolk, and I think the 6d8 acid breath could easily wipe them out. They have been moving in near single file for the last few encounters in the lair.
If they beat Kotabas they're going to run away. They will assume that he's the head lizard guy and that the black dragon is right around the corner. Near the very end of the fight with Kotabas I'm considering bringing in Hisska to cast entanglements on some of the party members. This will definately frustrate my players to no end.
I would like Hisska to make a deal with them. She will tell them of Shukak and Ilthane, and ask the party to destroy Shukak. In exchange she will ensure that the prisoners are not killed while they leave the lair to rest. In order to prevent the prisoners from being killed she will need one of the party members to pose as a prisoner. This will delay the lizard king from sacrificing prisoners from the keep. He will want to "interrogate" this new prisoner before making a sacrifice.
Do you think this is a good idea?
Takasi, is there any chance you could post that spreadsheet over at
http://therpgenius.com/Default.aspx?alias=therpgenius.com/ageofworms
or just email it to me at khays3 at hotmail.com? I'm running this very soon, and it sounds like it would be a big help.
Thanks!
Coup de Grace is evil, eating sentient beings is evil.
The problem with all of the arguments above is that they apply "imaginary constructed relativism" (i made this term up).
D&D is a game filled with game mechanics. One of the mechanics is alignment. Within the alignment mechanics there are things that are given an evil descriptor, most commonly spells, but including poison use. Coup de Grace is not described, per the rules as written, as being an evil act. Anywhere.
To me, the question is that simple. Coup de Grace is not an evil act. It has nothing to do with moral relativity, imaginarily constructed or not. It is simply a game mechanic without an evil descriptor.
After some digging I found an old copy of the spreadsheet. Keep in mind it is very simple and only adjudicates to hit and damage rolls. Every time they get enough damage equal to a lizardfolk you should remove one from the effort to break down the door. The area for the lizardfolk attempts to resolve their effort to break down the door.
http://home.comcast.net/~eberron/aow/Blackwall_Keep.xls
On the coup de grace issue, although I agree it's a neutral game mechanic I don't think you can rule that a paladin can do anything that doesn't have an evil descriptor.
To sum it up:
Game mechanics don't kill people, characters kill people.
Coup de Grace is evil, eating sentient beings is evil.
I completely disagree...
If I am DMing a swashbuckler kills an evil awakened apple tree and then takes a bite of an apple of his fallen foe as a cocky gesture... I would not ask what his alinement was... Sometimes food is just food, not matter what it thought it was prior to its passing.
Also, after an assult when those that have lost are lying in their own blood dying slow painful deaths, if the victors have no intention or means of healing, then a CDG can be a VERY compassionate act to quicking the passing, and minimizing the suffering. The lizardmen in the keep already thought they secured the keep, and were not going to heal the fallen gaurds. The CDG could have been nothing more than a favor to the gaurds.
Ok! This fact has been bugging me throughout the whole post.
Lizardfolk eating humans is not canabalism.
The crazy butcher halfling in Redhand pointed that out to me. "I've never eaten a Halfling."
Ok! This fact has been bugging me throughout the whole post.
Lizardfolk eating humans is not canabalism.
The crazy butcher halfling in Redhand pointed that out to me. "I've never eaten a Halfling."
You are quite correct: cannibalism is eating your own species. However, as Gregory originally said, eating another sentient species, should also be considered evil. Where I disagree with him, however, is on the use of the Coup de Grace. The D&D system is rife with moral ambiguity; I don't think a coup de grace is any more, or less, deliberate than beating your opponent to death with a stick (greatclub). If a paladin can rationalize the latter act within his moral code, than the former should conform as well. A coup de grace isn't murder <i> within the context of the game;</i> it's merely combat.
Additionally, killing a sentient being for food is usually evil, within the context of humanoid society. Orcs should be just as outraged as elves, humans, or dwarves at being eaten after a fight (gnomes & halflings should just expect it :-P). However, it presents an interesting argument if you play around with the idea of "sentient." Certain D&D races (beholders, illithids, and especially dragons) view humanoid races as little different than cattle. If the brass dragon munches on the rogue he caught invading his lair, is it still evil?
It's been a bit since Blackwall for my Eberron AOW group (they're currently in A Gathering Of Winds), but here's my 2cp.
My group also chose to focus on the leaders; specifically, a lightning blot straight down the druid and fighter's forces, which were neatly lined up behind their battlements, eagerly watching the fight. On the second round of combat, the lizardfolk fighter yelled "It's an ambush!", which caused some of the fighters at the keep to break away and try to help. These were wiped out in short order by a well-placed fireball (we've got quite a good wizard in the group). That, and the fighters' death in the same round forced morale checks, and the entire group fled to the forest. The party chose to defend the keep rather than chase down the lizardfolk (the druid had died in battle as well).
My BBEG's all enjoy mooks; and they should, just like they enjoy peons, toadies, yes-men, and syncophants. Anytime it's a choice between saving his/her/its own arse and keeping his extra followers at their task, nine times out of ten my villains want the extra backup, even if it's detrimental to their plans. The only times this is not the case is if some kind of fanaticism is involved (i.e. bad guy wins if he runs out the clock... which is what the kalahstar are doing to the quori; we live and do good long enough, your plans will automatically fail. Nyah Nyah.)
As a player and DM, I would have LOVED to been in the battle described in the first post, just because the moral gray areas are very intriguing. Obviously if your party doesn't go for that kinda stuff, don't give it to them; it can end up being quite the train wreck. However, sounds like that session back in September caused some good ole' alignment fears and head-scratching, which is never a bad thing, believe it or not :)