On a different thread here we're discussing our favorite non-WotC products. What I'm wondering is how much is getting to be played with out there, especially where players are concerned.
I don't have DMs who are stone-set against the plethora of d20 books out there but it seems everything I've seen so far with the DMs and players (in the 2 groups I'm currently in) it's all "official" stuff.
I'm wanting to pick up Monte Cook's Best of d20 book but I think it'll end up sitting on my shelf unused. I did mention to one of my DMs that I'd maybe want to play a Blood Witch from Relic & Rituals (it's 3.0 but nothing much would need updating.) Without outright vetoing it he pointed out something similar in, I think, Complete Arcane, an "official" book.
Now, it's not like I couldn't provide my DMs with photocopies of whatever information they'd need to know about anything I'd want to play but it seems that it's just quietly ignored that there's a world of other books out there that are great to put into use.
Has/is anyone else facing a similar hurdle?
- Chris Shadowens
I think the main problems are:
1. Most non-WoTC stuff is 3.0, which means time spent going over it and adapting it to 3.5 (especially if it's something based off a class that got a major overhaul between editions).
2. There is just so much stuff out in print, it's really difficult to keep up.
3. The DM might want to stick to "official" stuff in the hopes that it is game balanced. (With some sources that is something to worry about)
Now to tell you the truth I have bought non-WoTC stuff to try and use in my game world. And now I just have way too much stuff, my world is sort of floating in Limbo waiting to get half formed. So in a way I can empathize with your DM, however if you really want to use other stuff you just might want to corner said DM and seriously talk to him/her.
I think the main problems are:
1. Most non-WoTC stuff is 3.0, which means time spent going over it and adapting it to 3.5 (especially if it's something based off a class that got a major overhaul between editions).
Sure, but there's also a lot of 3.0 stuff from WotC still out there. Occasionally they update it, and we shell out more $$$ for it, which the 3rd party publishers generally don't do. But a lot of the 3.0 content can make the transition with little to no change applied what so ever.
2. There is just so much stuff out in print, it's really difficult to keep up.
True, true. But, as I'd mentioned, if a DM needed I could provide a photocopy of anything I use. With both of my DMs now we leave our character sheets there (so someone else can play it if there's a no-show.) I can just have a photocopy stapled to my character sheet. Done and done.
3. The DM might want to stick to "official" stuff in the hopes that it is game balanced. (With some sources that is something to worry about)
I can see that but there are also a lot of products out there that are balanced. I can't see any d20 publisher surviving by putting nothing but unbalanced crap out there. Sure, occasionally a feat or ability is broken but can't the same be said for WotC?
...however if you really want to use other stuff you just might want to corner said DM and seriously talk to him/her.
It's not that either DM is so closed-off that I couldn't at least approach them about bringing in something from "the outside". It just seems that it's not something they do. I was just curious if others have run into the same thing.
- Chris Shadowens
While there are a lot of interesting d20 supplements out there, I generally find them to be inconsistent with my campaign and/or too vast in quantity to even begin going through them.
I generally like to keep options limited to WotC products in my campaign, which is set in Greyhawk 591CY, and I even go so far as to exclude Forgotten Realms products. This makes it easier for me to keep an eye out for anything that isn't really fitting to my campaign world or to reduce the problem of a feat, PrC, spell, etc. being overpowered or underpowered when taken out of the context of its setting and/or rules variant system.
I have a lot of WotC D&D books, so most of my players, most of whom are new to 3e D&D, don't have to go out and buy books just to use a PrC, either. They can peruse my copy when they come over for a game session and see what they like. I'm usually pretty active in suggesting ideas and options to them, too.
Most of the stuff that I throw in is from Malhavoc Press or Green Ronin, both of whom have many writers that have actually worked for WOTC before, so balance usually isn't a problem.
Playing in the forgotten Realms, any time the player's run into, for example, the Shadovar, who have been away from the world for a long time, or ancient liches, I love to throw in magic from The Secret College of Necromancy or The Book of Eldritch Might to show that the spells of these foes are different.
I don't generally encourage my players to stick to "Core" rulebooks, but if they want to play something else, I usually let them. So far I haven't yet had anyone come to me with a non-WotC source (or non-Malhavoc source in my AE game).
I also occasionally use Green Ronin material for NPCs.
For me, using non-WotC items has to be about balance. The Folks here at Dungeon and at WotC have really tryed to keep that sense that no matter what class you play, even at higher levels you are each equal to one another. If my players want to use something from out of another D20 source(and everyone is right, there are a TON of good books out there), the balance issue is the one I look to first. I currently allow my players to pick from any of the Relics and Rituals spells and classes for my current campain and lean heavily on the stuff from the folks at Swords and Sorcery/Necromancer Games, they have put out a bunch of really good modules that I haven't felt the need to edit at all to fit into my world.
I picked up the "Best of D20 2004" by Monte Cook and it was very good. By all means, get the PDF and not the hard copy. I adopted about 30% of it for my game. I really liked some of the feats in there (Spell of Opportunity, Spell Cleave).
I'm going to also get Iron Heroes for my next campaign, just because a low (er) magic system is something I want to finally try, after 25 years.
Magic items just kind of piss me off as a DM. They just complicate everything so much, but I don't have the balls to stand up to my players and tell them--no magic items, so there!
....so Iron Heroes says--no magic items. Can't argue with a book. (well, you can, but....)
However, I'm going to try to keep to official stuff from that point forward, except Dragon and Dungeon, which is kind of official. Most of the other d20 stuff I've seen doesn't sound very interesting to me anyway.
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I myself, as a DM allow all D20 stuff into my campaigns. This keeps things interesting--and me knowledgeable. As long as the players bring their respective book concerning the class they are playing then fine with me. I've seen talk of balance and in my opinion, it has never been a problem. Any half decent DM has the imagination to curb said imbalance in the game. I've allowed it in my WLD campaign with great success. In the end, everyone is enjoying themselves and their 'dream' character/s. Sometimes you just have to say, "What the heck," and go with it. My 2 cents.
Thoth Amon the Atlantian Mindflayerian
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I'm going to also get Iron Heroes for my next campaign, just because a low (er) magic system is something I want to finally try, after 25 years.
I'm reading through Iorn heroes right now. Although it looks like a well though out system, I'm kind of worried about the bookkeeping / logistics involved with the token system. I'm really curious about your experience, so let me know how it worked out!
I myself, as a DM allow all D20 stuff into my campaigns.
I'm the same way - and that includes books like d20 Modern, d20 Future, etc. That doesn't mean I'm going to allow a laser rifle into my game; it does mean if you find a cool feat or an idea for a prestige class or something similar, those will most likely be allowed in. If it's in a source I don't own, you have to provide me a copy. I prefer you buy me the book ( :D ), but since that's not likely, I'll accept photocopies, or even an e-mail that types things out.
The only thing I'm not so open on is races. When my current group started, I restricted them to PHB races only. If one of their PCs were to die or leave at this point (they're 9th level), I'd be open to another race - as long as they understand that discrimination and hatred and all those things exist. You wanna play a drow, that's fine - just understand that you aren't going to be very well received in most places. ;)
Now, having said all that... I think *I'm* the person who uses the most non-WotC material within the game. I've seen a handful of spells, I've seen one feat get requested, and I've seen one Prestige Class mentioned (though the player ended up going in a different direction). *shrug*
I'm open to it, though - I think there's a lot of clever ideas out there, and it's a shame not to use them.
I picked up the "Best of D20 2004" by Monte Cook and it was very good. By all means, get the PDF and not the hard copy.
I'm not terribly partial to full books in PDF format. What's the benefit over the actual book. Cost?
- Chris Shadowens
I picked up the "Best of D20 2004" by Monte Cook and it was very good. By all means, get the PDF and not the hard copy. I adopted about 30% of it for my game. I really liked some of the feats in there (Spell of Opportunity, Spell Cleave).
I'm going to also get Iron Heroes for my next campaign, just because a low (er) magic system is something I want to finally try, after 25 years.
Magic items just kind of piss me off as a DM. They just complicate everything so much, but I don't have the balls to stand up to my players and tell them--no magic items, so there!
....so Iron Heroes says--no magic items. Can't argue with a book. (well, you can, but....)
However, I'm going to try to keep to official stuff from that point forward, except Dragon and Dungeon, which is kind of official. Most of the other d20 stuff I've seen doesn't sound very interesting to me anyway.
I have no problems with magical items, I just don't allow my players to walk their characters into town and buy exactly what they want. They get the magical items that appear in the adventures I run, and I may allow potion purchasing, but when it comes to magic item shopping, I tend to double the DMG price, or just not have them readily available. The PCs aren't selling their magical items, why should anyone else that has them.
I've seen Magic item proliferation totally screw up several RPGA games. Like new spells, as the DM you just decide what you will allow into your game. and don't let the players gather the game breaking magic item combos unless you want them to.
ASEO out
I picked up the "Best of D20 2004" by Monte Cook and it was very good. By all means, get the PDF and not the hard copy.I'm not terribly partial to full books in PDF format. What's the benefit over the actual book. Cost?
- Chris Shadowens
Yes, cost and because I knew that I was only going to be using a small portion of the book for my campaign, so I could copy and paste the relevant data into my DM's notes. I sometimes game off-site and I hate carrying around a bunch of stuff.
I just got Iron Heroes (hard-cover) and it appears very impressive, although I've read only about 20% so far. Next campaign, definitely.
Yes, I know I can limit magic items severely (and I do, I don't allow the purchase of anything with more than a +2 bonus for armor and weapons). If the players want more powerful magic they have to find it (not likely) or make it themselves.
A low magic game just appeals to me....maybe I'm more of a wargamer than I thought. I love military style battles and tactics in my game.
I just got Iron Heroes (hard-cover) and it appears very impressive, although I've read only about 20% so far. Next campaign, definitely.
Happy to see that you like it. Managed to convince one of my players to get it. Hope the rest will follow.
A low magic game just appeals to me....maybe I'm more of a wargamer than I thought. I love military style battles and tactics in my game.
Me too. I think that that aspect of D&D appeals to me about as much as all of the RPing.
WaterdhavianFlapjack
Wanted to throw this one out there on this thread. Has anyone else used the AEG series of one shot adventures? I ran "The wreck of the Venerable Drake" last month as a throw away and was rather dissapointed with the quality of the adventure. Are some of the others better? What about the ones put out under the Legends and Lairs name?