So, Dungeon 127 has a Map of Mystery. Let me state right up front that this is absolutely nothing against Rob's map. In fact, the artwork of the map was quite interesting with the 3D perspecitve and all that. Very cool looking.
But I have to say... I just don't get it. People on this messsage board begged and pleaded for more map of mystery articles. I honestly could never recall seeing one during the time of my subscription - so I was happy to see one in 127. So, um... what's the big deal about this feature? It's a map. It's no better or worse than the other 8 maps in the magazine (counting page 24 and page 70 each as one map).
So, what's the big deal? Why are these so coveted? Frankly, I don't see the value. I'm hoping somebody could help me.
Maps are cool.
Some of us just geek out over 1 page maps.
This feeling is completely subjective. It's not based on taste -- or even its utility.
(That said, I have used the Deepwatch Map of Mystery as a neat base town. It was a great exercise filling it with cool npcs, adventure hooks and other goodies for my players to trip over. The Dwarven mine has had great utility, pulling out portions to fill out caverns when players go "off the map" in a published module, or such. I'm hoping the secret pirate cove will get some use if I ever get my swashbuckling campaign kicked into gear).
But on the whole, it's as I said before. Maps are cool.
Maps are cool.
...
But on the whole, it's as I said before. Maps are cool.
Yep - it's even worth saying twice. :)
I'm not disagreeing that maps are cool; I'm certainly not going to say Rob didn't make an awesometastic map in this instance.
What makes a Map of Mystery so much better than, say, giving Monte Cook another 500 words; or expanding one of the adventures by 500 words. Especially since in the past it was pretty much a "map of mystery or this other feature" sort of thing - though that's lessened with the removal of Wil Save.
Now, I will say that I much prefer having a map of mystery over having a reprint of the cover art. One is useful in my game; the other isn't. :)
I think its analogous to fiction in Dragon, my friend.
I like fiction. It's neat. It is the foundation of the hobby, in many ways. I think we're poorer as role players when we're not exposed to fiction (whether it's poorly or well-written)
Yet its place in the magazine has its critics. Usually with the caveat: the "space" could have been utilized in some other way.
So it is with maps, a creative enterprise that can inspire a DM to devise a neat encounter, a whole adventure or even a campaign.
By itself, it is not directly useful. Fair enough. It takes a lot of DM work to adapt a map for actual use.
But some maps, especially Rob and Jason's stuff, have an artistic flair. They are nice to look at. Frankly, I can't enjoy another Monte Cook article or even another page of stat blocks on that level.
I just think the hobby is big enough to include things in its two signature magazines that are just neat. Not everything has to have a plug'n'play utility for me to get my money's worth.
I appreciate the creativity and energy required to write a short story or an artistic map. Both have the capacity to inspire me as a player or as a DM. That, in a nutshell, makes them worthy of inclusion in the magazine. Maybe not every issue. But fiction and maps are worth including at least every three or four months.
Maybe that makes me odd. I dunno.
No, it makes sense Troy. And like I said in my first post, I don't want to take anything away from Rob because the map is indeed quite nice looking.
But there's a fundamental difference between fiction in Dragon and a Map of Mystery. With the fiction, it's one of the "lead" articles, and it's the only article of it's type in that given issue. With the map of mystery, though, there's 8 other maps (by my count) in that same issue of Dungeon.
What is it that makes a map of mystery more inspiring than any of the other maps in the issue?
What is it that makes a map of mystery more inspiring than any of the other maps in the issue?
That's a tough one. I probably don't have a satisfying answer to that.
For instance, the crooked tavern in the AoW is most definitely going to be incorporated into some game I run in the future -- whether I use AoW or not. That is really an inspired map, even if I discard all the AoW stuff associated with it and make it my own.
Now that map is not a may of mystery, but it's still serviceable as such.
I would say, however, (even though the Map of Mystery in this month's issue doesn't fall into the same category as the Maps of Mystery that I find really interesting) is that a map without a key can be a jumping off point for a DM. I can envison all the neat things I can do to key it.
It's something akin to the D&D Gazeteer vs. the Living Greyhawk. Because the former is a more of a sketchy outline of a setting (rather than being more detailed), I feel freer and more comfortable using the D&D Gazeteer to customize my own world.
It's the same with a map of mystery. True, I can use any map in the issue and customize it myself. But I think in the back of my mind I will always feel constrained by the adventure that the map was originally designed for. But with a map of mystery, I can fill in the blanks without that baggage. I certainly felt that way when I did that with the wharf Map of Mystery I used in my Wheel of Time game.
Maybe there's just something about a full-page map that makes it special. You know, it's like these great artists designed a map just especially for you. There's a sense of ownership that goes with it. I realize this is not a rational answer to your question. It's more a matter of perception.
It's the same with a map of mystery. True, I can use any map in the issue and customize it myself. But I think in the back of my mind I will always feel constrained by the adventure that the map was originally designed for. But with a map of mystery, I can fill in the blanks without that baggage. I certainly felt that way when I did that with the wharf Map of Mystery I used in my Wheel of Time game.
OK - that's reasonable, and something I can understand. :)
I just want to chime in that a while back when GVD started a thread bemoaning the loss of Maps of Mystery and Critical Threats I agreed that the maps were pretty cool and that I'd like to see some 3D ones like D. Suthernland III did for the original Ravenloft module. And lo and behold, Paizo gave us one.
Thank you Paizo!
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I like maps of mystery, but I'm not particularly fond of this particular map.
First of all, I also thought some 3-d perspectives would be a nice touch to some of the maps, but I don't think it really helps in this particular map. A simple "overhead view" would be very similar, and thus very little is attained with a "angled view" the way a structure with height might benefit.
I also like "complete" maps - ones that show how to get in, and possibly get out, even if there are "other ways to go" that are not detailed.
I am a big proponent of the MoM maps too but was "underwhelmed" by this map. If you are going to devote an entire page to one map it needs to be all inclusive and this one certainly is far from that. I am hoping the Christoper West maps that he was hinting about get published soon. I think his are the best MoM maps. They generally have a particular theme, a unique location that is usable in any campaign, and some sort of map feature that makes them really cool to look at.
Rob's map was obviously well done, but in order to be used in an adventure a DM would have to add a lot to the areas around the map for it to be usable, which kinda defeats the whole idea.
It may be because this Map of Mystery seems to be just a portion of some larger map. It is kind of Under Mt like in that it doesn't really lead you to any conclusion as to how to fit the map into a game... Maybe that over all openess is good for some people.
For me, looking at the map, we have a sewer connection point that leads off the map, a boat dock, and a couple of rooms that may provide access to lower levels. But the other rooms and dunnels don't realy spark me to think "I know where I'll use this Map".
I could see addinf arrow slits to the rooms that are just above the boat dock to give that area a bit of a fortified look and use to bring clandestine cargo in. The oter rooms I guess could be basements or crypts, but I guess I feel that compaired to the Dwarven Hold Maps of Mystery, I could have drawn this one myself in 5 minutes.
Still I'm glad to see the feature back.
ASEO out
Well, let me take another look at this map. If you put guards/barrier/portcullis in the passageway with the alcoves, and arrow slits in the rooms overlooking the landing, then you could have a smuggler landing with access to the sewers, and a couple of rooms for storage...Maybe the pit with the ladder is a place to store kidnap victims and the ladder can be pulled up.
The other area, beyond the alcove area could be crypts that the smugglers don't enter, and have to keep undead from wandering in from, hence the added portcullis. The pointed room with the trapdoor in the floor could be a chapel/burial prep area, with the trap door leading to some hidden stockpile/relics. Put an altar over it and some additional religions trappings in the room. The dirt tunnel is where some crypt robbers have burrowed in from a neighboring basement.
Thoughts?
ASEO out
Zherog, I think ASEO just answered your original post with his last two. A good MoM sparks the imagination... gets you thinking, "Hmmm, what could this room be used for?" or "What if this area also had this... and that?"
I admit that this one really didn't knock my socks off, but it was at least an attempt to please the readers that requested them and the couple of us that requested 3D maps.
A building map would definitely exemplify just how awesome 3D maps are. A flat series of caves don't really get it done the same way.
I remember writing an adventure using the Hall of Huhueteotl map in one of 2003's Dungeon. Halfway through designing my cool adventure I get issue #103 and find that Kent Ertman has beaten me to the punch with "Glacial Inferno."
Anyway, point is, a good MoM can be very inspiring.
Zherog, I think ASEO just answered your original post with his last two. A good MoM sparks the imagination... gets you thinking, "Hmmm, what could this room be used for?" or "What if this area also had this... and that?"
Indeed. But what is it about other maps that prevent that? I mean, I've had my subscription for just about a year now. Not counting adventures I've run or will run, I've already yanked a few maps - because I thought they looked cool. I'm not using anything else having to do with the adventure - just the map.
So while Aseo's brainstorming is fun to watch - because I like watching creative people get going - I still don't quite see how a MoM does that any better than another map. That's why I asked. And that's why I'm glad to be getting some answers, too. :)
edit: I had part of Steve's original post still hanging around. I yanked it out...
Zherog, I think ASEO just answered your original post with his last two. A good MoM sparks the imagination... gets you thinking, "Hmmm, what could this room be used for?" or "What if this area also had this... and that?"Indeed. But what is it about other maps that prevent that? I mean, I've had my subscription for just about a year now. Not counting adventures I've run or will run, I've already yanked a few maps - because I thought they looked cool. I'm not using anything else having to do with the adventure - just the map.
So while Aseo's brainstorming is fun to watch - because I like watching creative people get going - I still don't quite see how a MoM does that any better than another map. That's why I asked. And that's why I'm glad to be getting some answers, too. :)
I admit that this one really didn't knock my socks off, but it was at least an attempt to please the readers that requested them and the couple of us that requested 3D maps.
A building map would definitely exemplify just how awesome 3D maps are. A flat series of caves don't really get it done the same way.
There was a much more eloquent response to a similar query by GVDammerung to this very question a while back. I'm not so gifted as him, but what I've seen is that MoMs are usually a bit more sprawling and detailed. Check out #'s 87, 88, and 91 for just a few examples. Any map can be used as a MoM, I've already suggested this myself, but there's usually a bit more detail in MoMs that separate them from the others. I wouldn't present the one in #127 as a good example of this, though.
In another thread, some people made some very good points about any map being useable for a Map of Mystery. I think that is true, but having a map with an adventure attached does tend to cater to that particular adventure. Having a map that is just a stand alone...there is something to that as well.
ASEO out
Here's that other thread:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/dungeon/generalDiscussion/archives/dun geonAMarginalPurchase
Here's one I started to see how/if people use their Maps O' Mystery.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/dungeon/generalDiscussion/archives/who SLivingInYourMapOfMysteryOrLetSPlayHouse
GGG
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1. I think a map drawn for an adventure is constrained to some extent; it has to map the adventure locations in a logical and consistent manner, that also satisfies the requirements of plot and character interaction. Maps of Mystery are under no such requirements, and can be as fanciful or unusual as the cartographer likes; then the DM has the enjoyable task of fitting his villain's machinations around the available terrain, rather more like the real world.
2. Maps in Dungeon adventures typically map a certain number of specific locations: inns/taverns, churchs/temples, underground tunnel complexes. There are thousands of other kinds of places you can have an adventure, but the selection of maps for those is much more limited. With the Maps of Mystery feature, you can have maps for such unusual things as boathouses or glacial rifts, or whatever. It's an additional resource.
3. For gamers, maps = good, more maps = better. It just is. Really.
:)
Now if only the online supplements would include the Maps of Mystery. :)