I have a larger party (6 members) and have been trying to determine an appropriate challenge for them with scaling the adventure. They have just cleared the first level of Karran-Kuraal.
They are:
Simon Trueblade - Male Human, 12 Paladin of Heironeous
Bonebreaker - Male Halfling (Reincarnated from Goliath) 11 Barbarian 1 Goliath
Azurius Foundling - Male Half-Aasimar (Smoking Eye) 11 ranger 1 Aasimar +1 smoking eye
Snalacious 'Snizler' Garrick - Male Gnome, 12 Wizard (was ressurected after assassin attack)
Erasmus Bufont - Male Human 10 Rouge, 1 Fighter, 1 Shadowdancer
Toric Grimgirn - Male Dwarf 10 Cleric of St. Cuthbert, 2 Contemplative
So that's 5 characters that are 12th level and 1 that is effectively 13 levels (Smoking eye). I seem to remember a guideline (don't know from where) that for every party member above 4 you add 2 the appropriate challenge rating level. So by that logic a CR 16 would be as easy of a challenge for them as a CR 12 would be for a party of four. Is this right? Any help would be much appreciated.
Hi!
While I have no books in front of me at the present (to crunch the numbers), off the top of my head, I'd say you're correct.
It would seem to me that this party would be able to handle a CR 16 encounter.
Peace
Roger
I've found that larger (6 person vs 4 person) parties don't seem to negatively impact the adventures published in Dungeon The character mortality rate seems to be lower, but that is usually a good thing. Personally, I would not increase the CR for a 6 person party. Sure they get a bit less experience, but the number of PCs tends to make up for the difference in levels if that becomes a factor.
Personally, if you feel that the players are not having fun because they are to powerfull, give the creatures a few more HP. There is nothing wrong with the Heroes using good tactics or getting "hot" dice and making it through an encounter without a scratch. I used to feel cheated as a DM if the monsters (especially cool monsters) never hit a pC, Noqw I realize that that usually means that the PCs had a good plan, and that they will be able to move on in the adventure instead of having to rest and heal...nothing kills an adventure like having a party that has to camp out to recover spells after every other combat.
ASEO out
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Here's what I have found.
In a larger party (my group averages 6-7), you are able to deal better with *certain* types of encounter levels.
For example, 4 7th level characters can handle a EL 7 encounter. The extra 2-3 players could handle an additional EL 5-6 encounter. That's great if you can break down your encounter into multiple opponents, or even double up opponents if necessary.
For the single opponent, I tend to eyeball it and level it up 1-2 EL to keep things interesting.
The average goon encounters and traps, I don't change. Really, only the memorable encounters in SCAP get a bit beefed up ...
Doubleing the number of MONSTERS raises the EL by 2. I've never heard of an extra party member adding 2. Raising the CRs by 4 because of 2 party members will certainly be a TPK.
In my experience, once you start getting extra players, the players will start playing non-combat-optimized characters. Increases in CR really aren't justified in those cases. About the only change I'd make is to add some low level mooks maybe so that the non-combat characters can have something to do during a battle.
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In the end, more PCs is less about their individual power (though that's major part) and instead is a factor of their personal # of actions. Raising the final bad guy's level by 2 to compensate for 2 more players doesn't necessarily change much- if he's melee based, he hits more easily, has more hp, and might have slightly better equip, but unless any of these was already providing a major challenge for the original party (i.e. he tends to crit often and drop players in a few hits, or is generally "impossible" to hit) then he will be bogged down by the extra number of actions.
In my own experience, this creates a more hazardous scenario if the GM is trying to make the encounter challenging, b/c the bad guy must work additionally hard to start taking down his opposition (read: the PCs)and deaths may very well increase.
Marc Chin's AP evil party notes reveal a stunning amount of deaths for the 12 member party, as their individual frailities begin to build up, while their total party strength remained very high.
Casters work similarly, in that you climb the spell charts toward nastier spells that are more likely to kill/incapacitate the PCs.
IMO (and echoing the poster above), unless you are absolutely striving for the "lone wolf" villain, it is preferable to add a few minions to equal out the EL, and thus tie up the players' actions and give everyone a chance to fight.
Finally, I will note that adding +1 to a CR ends up with more experience for the 5 person party than with four people and the base CR. It's a tough balancing act, and you're probably better to go for more dynamic encounters than simply more CR... if you aren't trying to kill your party members, I'd add +1 to the ELs with 6 players, and no adjustment for 5.
Thanks everyone for the responses and advice. Does anyone know where this specific rule is adressed? DMG? page #?
Much Appreciated
Grunk
According to the character creation appendix in the hardcover, this adventure path is ideally designed for 6 party members.
I would not adjust up anything, as the EL's seem very tough. (I'm on my second read through before starting).
I hope to have 6 players for my game, but think 4-5 is the best I'll do. I do not plan to adjust the EL's, though I may fudge the hitpoints (down) here and there.
-c
Um, starting from page 36 in the DMG is where the XP awards are dealt with. Although the tables are designed with 4 characters, one of each basic archetype (one fighter, one rogue, one arcane caster, and one divine caster).
Um, starting from page 36 in the DMG is where the XP awards are dealt with. Although the tables are designed with 4 characters, one of each basic archetype (one fighter, one rogue, one arcane caster, and one divine caster).
Sorry, should have clarified. Where in the DMG are the rules for dealing with a party of more than 4 people when it comes to appropriate challenge levels.
Thanks again everyone!
Grunk
This link may be helpful to you:
http://www.d20srd.org/encounterCalculator.htm
According to the calculator an EL 13 encounter is most appropriate. This seems right. EL 16 would wipe out the party.
Thanks QBert!