I have picked up the first 3 of the series and am really happy with what I have seen so far. Im incorperating it into my campaign, but am having a bit of a problem. I have 7-8 players (!) and the party level average is currently 4.
I was going to start with 3 faces, but the party took so long with their current adventure that they leveled passed the starting point. The first adventure looks like it can be easily skipped as long as the notes and relevant info is passed on to the party. They will be given a "diary" of a group of adventurers that completed the 1st adventure.
My problem is how to resolve the level issue for 3 faces and beyond? The suggest tweaks for higher level games is useful, but theres going to be problems when the party has access to 3rd level spells. Lightning bolts, fireballs and dispel magic can really put a damper on some of the scenarios. I fear the same in part 3 "blackwall keep"
Whats the best way to overcome this?
I have picked up the first 3 of the series and am really happy with what I have seen so far. Im incorperating it into my campaign, but am having a bit of a problem. I have 7-8 players (!) and the party level average is currently 4.
Wow. That is a chunky group.
I was going to start with 3 faces, but the party took so long with their current adventure that they leveled passed the starting point. The first adventure looks like it can be easily skipped as long as the notes and relevant info is passed on to the party. They will be given a "diary" of a group of adventurers that completed the 1st adventure.
I personally would send them through the first adventure anyway. Tha main point of it is to get the characters entrenched in Diamond Lake, and to pique their curiosity about just what the Hell is going on around there. You could even level up the baddies, and increase the numbers; with 7-8 players, they are going to level slowly anyway.
My problem is how to resolve the level issue for 3 faces and beyond? The suggest tweaks for higher level games is useful, but theres going to be problems when the party has access to 3rd level spells. Lightning bolts, fireballs and dispel magic can really put a damper on some of the scenarios.
What, specifically? I am running an Iron Heroes party using the Elements of Magic for Arcanists. Under EoM, you can cast (very weak) area effect spells and dispel magic at first level, and I have not noticed any short-circuiting.
I fear the same in part 3 "blackwall keep"
Whats the best way to overcome this?
I would definitely keep the important encounters challenging, through powerful enemies and sheer numbers. The less important encounters might be cakewalks, but eventually a party that large is going to lag behind in levels. I think the problem will resolve itself.
MI
I was going to start with 3 faces, but the party took so long with their current adventure that they leveled passed the starting point. The first adventure looks like it can be easily skipped as long as the notes and relevant info is passed on to the party. They will be given a "diary" of a group of adventurers that completed the 1st adventure.
I too recommend running Whispering Cairn. Aside from the fact that it is a stunning adventure in its own right, it is designed to set up the plot for the entire campaign and allow the PCs time to roleplay their characters and get a feel for them while meeting a lot of NPCs and getting to know Diamond Lake. This is too important to replace with a diary entry. Just scale up the adventure. It's already tough as it is and there are scaling tips in the Online Supplement. As the XP system is self-correcting, soon you won't need to do any scaling.
My problem is how to resolve the level issue for 3 faces and beyond? The suggest tweaks for higher level games is useful, but theres going to be problems when the party has access to 3rd level spells. Lightning bolts, fireballs and dispel magic can really put a damper on some of the scenarios. I fear the same in part 3 "blackwall keep"
First off, Blackwall Keep is an adventure designed for 5th-level adventurers, who have spells like dispel magic already. By the end of 3 Faces, PCs who started Whispering Cairn at 1st level might have reached 5th. So your party is not that far away from where it should be. Scale the adventures until they are of the appropriate level, and all will be well. Worry less about challenging your PCs and more about building an involving and entertaining world for them. This is what is truly rewarding about D&D.
I already have a pretty diverse plotline going and PC interaction from the first 4 levels of play. The storyline originally revolved around vengence for the mysterious slain master of the entire party. It had a lot of mystery and intrigue around the ties between the playing characters. Their master's demise was caused by events that included a group trying to free a "dark power" trapped on another plane. It was happy coincidence that that was what AoW happened to be about. Since adventure 2, 3, and 4 are not set in Diamond Lake, I don't really have any problem with severing the ties for that town.
You can read about it here:
http://s3.invisionfree.com/orderofthelion/index.php?showforum=53
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If you plan on running AoW like it is intended (with battling Kyuss at the end), than you have missed something very, very important with skipping 'The Whispering Cairn'. Inside the cairn the pc's find a fragment of the Rod Of Seven Parts which will be needed to defeat Kyuss in the end.
There'll be some more scenes within the AP that'll refer to the item.
You should make it avaiable in another way if you don't plan on running 'Whispering Cairn'.
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Bulk up the encounters in Whispering Cairn *substantially*.
This should present no real difficulties for you. Have fun with it.
Award the party 1/3rd XP for this adventure.
Bulk up 3FoE and double the foes.
Award 75%-80% XP for these.
You should now be on an even keel and from here on in - double the foes and award normal XP.
If you plan on running AoW like it is intended (with battling Kyuss at the end), than you have missed something very, very important with skipping 'The Whispering Cairn'. Inside the cairn the pc's find a fragment of the Rod Of Seven Parts which will be needed to defeat Kyuss in the end.
There'll be some more scenes within the AP that'll refer to the item.
You should make it avaiable in another way if you don't plan on running 'Whispering Cairn'.
Is this information somewhere? I didn't realize the rod fragment was needed later on.
Uhm, just consulted the overload to make sure.
A fragment of the rod of seven parts isn't encountered until a gathering of winds which is part 6 of the AoW.
So you could skip the whispering cairn but you shouldn't because it is a good adventure and ..... without it you can never run part 6 because the pc's won't know where the whispering cairn is. (mmm Absinth is partly correct it seems)
I too recommend running Whispering Cairn. Aside from the fact that it is a stunning adventure in its own right, it is designed to set up the plot for the entire campaign and allow the PCs time to roleplay their characters and get a feel for them while meeting a lot of NPCs and getting to know Diamond Lake. This is too important to replace with a diary entry. Just scale up the adventure. It's already tough as it is and there are scaling tips in the Online Supplement. As the XP system is self-correcting, soon you won't need to do any scaling.
Well its only self correcting if you don't bulk up the encounters. That said 8 4th level characters would breeze through Whispering Cairn without any challange at all. Its not ideal but I'd split the difference and bulk up one or two of the encounters while letting the rest be cake walks. Maybe do the same for Three Faces of Evil. Blackwall Keep will be a bit easier for them with so many players (and presuming that they manage to make 5th by from the first two adventures) but after that they should quickly get to about the right power level for the challanges.
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This "self-correcting" mantra ignores the fact that such "self-correction" takes 9-12 sessions - if it ever happens.
I don't know about you - but my time and that of my players is too valuable for this laissez-faire (I'd even go so far as to call it lazy) approach.
When I DM a campaign - I expect that I will have to put some effort into to making it work for my players and to ensure that they have fun every gaming session.
The point is not to hope my players stick around to have fun 4 months from now.
YMMV, and in this case, it clearly does.
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The Wispering Cairn is necessary, sets up Aow 6, allows info on the Rod of Seven Parts and the wind Dukes of Aaqa to be gathered and puts in the hands of the PCs a Talisman of the Sphere - which certainly is needed later on in the series.
Can you plot around this with some work? Yup. You sure can. But you can do the same thing and do some work on Whispering Cairn to make it work too. It's a great module. My advice: Pull up your sleeves and get to work to make it work.
It's not rocket science.
This "self-correcting" mantra ignores the fact that such "self-correction" takes 9-12 sessions - if it ever happens.
Its signiifcantly quicker then that - especially with the AP which is full of such tough encounters that its often dangerously overwhelming for 4 characters and might work best with 6 in anycase - the difference from 6 to 8 is just not that much. I'd think 8 first level characters would not have to much trouble with Wispering Cairne but they'd only make 2nd level and would probably be quite challanged by 3 Faces of Evil. Now their third maybe heading four fourth and will be very challanged by Blackwall Keep.
I don't know about you - but my time and that of my players is too valuable for this laissez-faire (I'd even go so far as to call it lazy) approach.When I DM a campaign - I expect that I will have to put some effort into to making it work for my players and to ensure that they have fun every gaming session.
Still challanging the party and giving out good rewards is not as simple as just doubling the number of bad guys. The party is challanged by the traps and the obsticles they encounter as well so one has to modify them as well if one goes with the double the strength of the party and double the strength of the dungeon approach. Also you end up having to dole out twice teh treasure and twice there fore twice magic items. Ultimatly your very much stretching the boundries in which the adventure is made and it can be pretty difficult to keep good tabs on whetehr everything is working. Not to mention that doubling the bad guys is easy at low levels when the bad guys are all generally pretty basic creatures that wander around in hordes. Its more difficult when the party comes face to face with Dargotha - know you have to either have him and his twin brother face teh party or figure out how to ramp up his power to compensate. Same deal when they face a Dragon - if you make two dragons then you have to modify the structure of the dungeon to compensate for the fact that another huge creature hangs out here as well.
All of this can be done of course but its quite a lot of work if the goal is to make the whole adventure just as challanging for a party thats twice the size but of equal level to the base recomendations of the adventure. If you let the system self correct your removing a lot of quess work and leg work from the equazition. Individually the players will be weaker then the recomended levels but there will be more of them and they should get by - but after the first adventure, be quite challanged.
Finally I doubt you'll find yourself loosing any players over a few sessions where every battle is not a death struggle. Most players enjoy a certian number of encounters where they can be the hero's and kick ass, especially with a bit of a ramp up where they can get used to theri characters and their abilities before they finally get into battles where there is a significant percent chance that their character dies right there.
Just a little point I want to bring up for you all to think over. In my game atleast, players are allowed to recruit NPCs. With four players, each could hire one NPC to go with them on a trek (henchmen, bodygaurds, scouts, etc.). When this happens, for the most part, the exp balence pays off.
Just something to think about.
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Its signiifcantly quicker then that - especially with the AP which is full of such tough encounters that its often dangerously overwhelming for 4 characters and might work best with 6 in anycase - the difference from 6 to 8 is just not that much. I'd think 8 first level characters would not have to much trouble with Wispering Cairn...
Jeremy - the poster's party was 7-8 *4th* level characters and was inquiring about what to do with the Whispering Cairn.
This was not about 7-8 1st levels characters - but 4th. (my party, in another thread, was 7-8 1st lvl chars)
I think if you look at the original posters party, the solution of "doing nothing" is, indeed, going to take 9-12 play sessions to "even out" and it's going to suck - a lot - during that time without taking active steps to fix it. Thye are going to blow through 3 or 4 play session of the Whispering Cairn and their superior numbers are going to carve through 3 Faces of Evil as well. It should normalize towards the end of Black Wall Keep.
That's a whole lot of gaming suckage to ask players to put up with. No. Laissez-faire is a demonstrbaly bad idea with this sort of party.
I thought it might be useful to add some specifics to my "scale up the adventure" comment in an earlier post. I stand by my recommendation to run the Whispering Cairn. I will post some example modifications and if you are interested I will continue.
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Since your party is 3 levels higher than the average party, our goal is to increase ELs by 3. I maintain that the larger party size is necessary due to the deadliness of the adventure and won't be scaling for size, only for level.
Area 4: Change the wolves to dire wolves. This increases the EL from 3 to 6.
Area 7 (Sarcophagus): Change to fireball trap (DMG, p. 72). EL increases from 2 to 5.
Area 7 (Green Lantern): Add a second mad slasher and two more beetle swarms. EL increases from 3 to 6.
Area 7 (Indigo Lantern): Keep the trap the same, but increase damage to 6d6, Search DC to 20 and Disable Device DC to 25. (See DMG, p. 72: falling block trap). This increases the EL from 2 to 5.
I am running an Iron Heroes party using the Elements of Magic for Arcanists.
MI
How's that working out? Being a big IH fan, I am also considering running AoW in IH.
Thanks
WaterdhavianFlapjack
Since your party is 3 levels higher than the average party, our goal is to increase ELs by 3. I maintain that the larger party size is necessary due to the deadliness of the adventure and won't be scaling for size, only for level.
Area 4: Change the wolves to dire wolves. This increases the EL from 3 to 6.
Area 7 (Sarcophagus): Change to fireball trap (DMG, p. 72). EL increases from 2 to 5.
Area 7 (Green Lantern): Add a second mad slasher and two more beetle swarms. EL increases from 3 to 6.
Area 7 (Indigo Lantern): Keep the trap the same, but increase damage to 6d6, Search DC to 20 and Disable Device DC to 25. (See DMG, p. 72: falling block trap). This increases the EL from 2 to 5.
I was really planning on skipping the Whispering Cairn, but these suggestions seem really good. I may just have to run it to get the proper background for the story arc.
I was really planning on skipping the Whispering Cairn, but these suggestions seem really good. I may just have to run it to get the proper background for the story arc.
Since your party is 3 levels higher than the average party, our goal is to increase ELs by 3. I maintain that the larger party size is necessary due to the deadliness of the adventure and won't be scaling for size, only for level.
Area 4: Change the wolves to dire wolves. This increases the EL from 3 to 6.
Area 7 (Sarcophagus): Change to fireball trap (DMG, p. 72). EL increases from 2 to 5.
Area 7 (Green Lantern): Add a second mad slasher and two more beetle swarms. EL increases from 3 to 6.
Area 7 (Indigo Lantern): Keep the trap the same, but increase damage to 6d6, Search DC to 20 and Disable Device DC to 25. (See DMG, p. 72: falling block trap). This increases the EL from 2 to 5.
BTW, I just got 124 and 125 (126 was my first issue), and am in the middle of reading through Whispering Cairn. I think you are doing your players a great service by running this excellent adventure!!
WaterdhavianFlapjack
I have picked up the first 3 of the series and am really happy with what I have seen so far. Im incorperating it into my campaign, but am having a bit of a problem. I have 7-8 players (!) and the party level average is currently 4.
Run with it. I've got a party of 7-8 players with an average level of 3, and things are working well so far in the Whispering Cairn. Since there're not Diamond Lake natives, they've already taken a couple of sessions getting acquainted with the locale (there were actually no dice rolls in the last session-pure role playing...wow). I've beefed things up a bit, but there's still plenty of interesting things in the 1st installment to merit including it despite your party's higher level.
LG
BTW, I just got 124 and 125...
Good for you.
(I) am in the middle of reading through Whispering Cairn...this excellent adventure!!
Told ya.
LG
BTW, I just got 124 and 125...
Good for you.
(I) am in the middle of reading through Whispering Cairn...this excellent adventure!!Told ya.
LG
Yes, Yes, Yes. You did. Thanks for the advice!!
WaterdhavianFlapjack
I was really planning on skipping the Whispering Cairn, but these suggestions seem really good. I may just have to run it to get the proper background for the story arc.
Well, if you liked those, here's some more:
Area 8: Keep the Face in Darkness trap the same. It is already CR 4 and if your party is 4th level I wouldn't worry about scaling it up. It's not meant to kill PCs, just warn them that they can't proceed any further without solving the puzzle.
Area 9: Change to ungol dust vapour trap, DMG p. 72 (CR increases from 2 to 5)
Area 10: Add two more lurking stranglers, increasing EL from 2 to 5.
Area 11: I would change this to yellow mould, although at CR 6 that might be a bit harsh. On the other hand, fire, which should be in abundance in a 4th-level party, destroys it. To make it a bit less obvious, you could put the mould in some old sacks so it isn't obvious until the PCs disturb it or examine the sacks closely without touching them.
Area 13: Make the earth elemental a Large one (CR increases from 1 to 5--I found the Small earth elemental to be a pushover for my party).
Area 16: Advance the bombardier beetle to 6 HD (+2 CR) and add two beetle swarms. This makes it an EL 6 encounter.
Area 17: Increase the size of this room and make the animated object Huge (CR 5) or keep it the same and make it a caryatid column (CR 6; Fiend Folio 30). It isn't likely this thing will spring to life anyway given the trigger conditions, so I wouldn't worry too much about scaling it. Advance the bombardier beetle to 6 HD (CR 4).
Area 19: Make it a Medium water elemental (CR 3). Given the difficulty of fighting underwater, I wouldn't make it Large, as its powers become much more effective as it increases in size.
Area 21: Make Ulavant an advanced, 8 HD ghast (CR 4).
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Area 10: Add two more lurking stranglers, increasing EL from 2 to 5.Negative. These things are significantly under CR'd as it stands. Depending on spells memorized, you could easily kill 3 or 4 PCs here.
I would not do this. Lurking Stranglers are vicious and are best dealt with via magic missile. But if there are only a few MM misile spellcasters, there will be deaths. Reason: the party can't do damage fast enough to stop them if there are too many.
Negative. These things are significantly under CR'd as it stands. Depending on spells memorized, you could easily kill 3 or 4 PCs here.I would not do this. Lurking Stranglers are vicious and are best dealt with via magic missile. But if there are only a few MM misile spellcasters, there will be deaths. Reason: the party can't do damage fast enough to stop them if there are too many.
Really? My party's barbarian killed it in one hit. The thing tried a sleep ray on a half-elf and died the following round. With Int 4, I ruled it would not be able to distinguish between elves and non-elves. They are weak with low hp. My party had no trouble with it.
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Really? My party's barbarian killed it in one hit. The thing tried a sleep ray on a half-elf and died the following round. With Int 4, I ruled it would not be able to distinguish between elves and non-elves. They are weak with low hp. My party had no trouble with it.
Negative. These things are significantly under CR'd as it stands. Depending on spells memorized, you could easily kill 3 or 4 PCs here.I would not do this. Lurking Stranglers are vicious and are best dealt with via magic missile. But if there are only a few MM misile spellcasters, there will be deaths. Reason: the party can't do damage fast enough to stop them if there are too many.
These things hover and attack from the dark using surprise.
Big barbarian Axe swing gets neutralized pretty fast when it's around somone's neck already.
IMO, these are deadly encounters.
If you are going to run em like orcs - different story.
These things hover and attack from the dark using surprise.Big barbarian Axe swing gets neutralized pretty fast when it's around somone's neck already.
IMO, these are deadly encounters.
If you are going to run em like orcs - different story.
I guess my party got kinda lucky. I rolled fairly low for Hide (7 or something--for a total of 21) and the druid Spotted it. So no surprise. It wasted its first action trying to sleep the half-elf druid. Then the barbarian finished it off. I suppose if 3 of them got surprise on a party it could be trouble. Still, I thought they were over-CRed. CR 2 is quite high for a 2HD creature that doesn't have a damaging attack.
Jeremy - the poster's party was 7-8 *4th* level characters and was inquiring about what to do with the Whispering Cairn.This was not about 7-8 1st levels characters - but 4th. (my party, in another thread, was 7-8 1st lvl chars)
I think if you look at the original posters party, the solution of "doing nothing" is, indeed, going to take 9-12 play sessions to "even out" and it's going to suck - a lot - during that time without taking active steps to fix it. Thye are going to blow through 3 or 4 play session of the Whispering Cairn and their superior numbers are going to carve through 3 Faces of Evil as well. It should normalize towards the end of Black Wall Keep.
That's a whole lot of gaming suckage to ask players to put up with. No. Laissez-faire is a demonstrbaly bad idea with this sort of party.
I acknowledged that in this situation. In my first post on this thread I suggested splitting the difference. Set it up so that the party encounters a couple of level appropreate events per session. Say a tough trap and a tough fight each session while leaving the rest as is. That should keep them challanged even if many of the other encounters are fairly easy. They are higher level so they probably won't take as long to finish the adventures so that will reduce the number of sessions until they get to Blackwall keep and begin to deal with encounters that are inherently closer to level appropreate.
The only other two alternitives are to heavily beef up all the modules and do the entire session at 3 levels above normal or to stiff them on experience. Of these two options I think the one involving doing everything three levels above normal is the better alternitive. It strikes me as somewhat cruel to stiff them on experience sicne the DM is clearly making the adventure challanging enough to kill them - if their characters can die they ought to also get their fair reward - i.e. lots of treasure and XP.
Three PC's died last night, so that knocks 3 levels off the party total, as I make them create new characters 1 level lower. I still haven't started them in the AoW part yet. They are just finishing up the end of the adventure that got them to 3rd/4th level.
I lost the 4/1 monk/cleric, the Ranger 3 and Fighter 3.
Leaving:
Paladin 4
Fighter/thief 2/1
Ranger 4
Sorc 4
Sorc 3
Them not having a cleric lowers the party ability over all despite 8 players. I think the AoW 3 will be particularly deadly with out things to combat the kyuss worms