My players are probably going to fight the water elemental in the submerged room in the Whispering Cairn next week, and I want to make sure I'm ready for an underwater encounter.
Can a player without water breathing cast a spell with a verbal component underwater? How about bardic abilities?
I would rule no, but I can't seem to find a specific rule anywhere.
Thanks for your help,
Sean Craig
Creative Director
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As far as I can tell... you can cast spells with verbal components or use bardic music underwater. Of course, if you can't breathe water... doing so might not be a good idea since by talking you're not holding your breath and you'll end up having to make some Con checks to avoid drowning.
If you want an extra penalty besides the 1 less turn underwater for just casting a spell, I would just have the player casting the spell lose an extra turn beyond what they had already lost that turn. Personally, I didn't apply this rule in my game, but if you feel that an additional rule is needed, thats what I would suggest. Any more than that would make the game a little tedious and less fun in my opinion. But you should always do what you feel would be best in your game.
Good luck and happy DMing!
I just ran my players through U1-U3 (for those familiar, U3 takes place almost entirely underwater) and here's my general take:
Water breathing: Verbal components normal, somatic and material problematic. Some material components just aren't normally compatible with underwater use, and swimming while gesturing can be difficult. Allow a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level, same as for casting a spell defensively in combat) to cast successfully. Give a +2 circumstance bonus if the character is under a medium load and his/her feet are on the ground.
Freedom of movement: somatic components normal, material and verbal components problematic. Per James' comment above, using verbal components requires not holding your breath. If you really want to make life difficult, you can require a concentration check here too (but I don't recommend it).
Neither: bad news for players, as both James' drowning comment and the concentration check apply.
Both: Really good news, since only the material component issue comes into play.
- Ashavan
I was actually surprized how my players handled this, paranoid of underwater creatures they tapped the surface of the water trying to see if anything was down there... thus drawing out the water elemental. Keeping themselves on dry land and giving them a huge advantage.
For the ghoul (or was it a gast... my memory sucks) only two of the party members went into the water... they tied ropes to themselves with the rest of the partymembers holding onto the other ends of the ropes... they took a third rope intending to tie it to any treasure they find making it easier to bring up... When the dead seeker started attacking the one with the rope took two attacks of opporunity to tie the rope to it... yanking on the rope the rest of the party hauled the ghoul to the stairs... where when it burst out of the water at them and combat ensued... the other players evenutally pulled themselves out of the water to help finish it off. All around smartly played.
Lead to one of the best lines of the game, screaming barbarian "Don't you ever! EVER! Send some crazy undead after me like that again!" He was the first in line hauling in the ropes... he was the strongest.
Thanks guys. Those rules are reasonable and should work great.
In 2nd Ed. there were extensive rules about casting spells and doing other things underwater. Probably the best book was a product titled "Of Ships and the Sea". I'd say that "Stormwrack" coming out in August will have extensive rules about this sort of stuff.
While Nived's PCs first plan of action was a good one, their second plan of action was verging on the suicidal. Ghouls aren't weak, and being paralyzed underwater is very, very bad. I think the PCs involved were lucky more than anything, because their plan shouted disaster.
Freedom of movement and water breathing would solve the problems presented by the underwater section, but 1st-3rd level PCs wont have access to such spells and will need to spend a lot of gold on scrolls or potions.
does anyone else feel like this encounter is way too nasty? since the PCs have to go down into the water (something that i can't imagine any right-thinking person doing) and will have to do it in the dark unless they happen to have some sunrods or housed the everburning torch from above, i have considered making the water only 5' deep. this is still deep enough to slow them down and the water elemental can still attempt to extinguish any torches to give the encounter a bit of menace, and it has the added advantage of not forcing the PCs to swim back up for air every 30 seconds.
am i just overly worried? those who have run this already, did it work out ok?
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does anyone else feel like this encounter is way too nasty? since the PCs have to go down into the water (something that i can't imagine any right-thinking person doing) and will have to do it in the dark unless they happen to have some sunrods or housed the everburning torch from above, i have considered making the water only 5' deep. this is still deep enough to slow them down and the water elemental can still attempt to extinguish any torches to give the encounter a bit of menace, and it has the added advantage of not forcing the PCs to swim back up for air every 30 seconds.
am i just overly worried? those who have run this already, did it work out ok?
That's exactly how I plan to handle it as well. I can't see my party of three being able to handle the underwater combat with a ghoul. We'll probably hit this room in the next session, so I'm prepping for the encounter now.
Maybe I'm being a tad mean but I really just assumed that any spell with a verbal component would be useless underwater as opening one's mouth (short of the spells that would prevent this)would create an influx of water, not an outpouring of sound. I play that the sound is necessary to the spell completion. I guess I would give some kind of roll is the completion was one word (say a wand) but I can't see giving normal use a reasonable shot.
For what's it worth my group of 5, which had reached 2nd level by the time they reached this area, had little trouble with the encounter. One character entered the showers alone with the magical light and was attacked by the elemental. He was tied to a rope with the other 4 ready to pull at a moment's notice. If he didn't signal every 20 seconds or so, or if the rope started jerking, or if 2 minutes had been reached (somewhat short of his limit), they all pulled like crazy.
They lost the magical torch and he got beat up but he got out. The druid's summoned porpoises put a hurt on the elemental and the pary dove in with piercing weapons and finished it off. The ghoul was handled much the same way, though they did get lucky that he missed 9 attacks in a row.
My point is that even without good luck this encounter has the potential to get nasty, but it could also be fairly easy. If the party is smart the chance of things goin bad should be reduced to mostly bad luck.
Forgot to mention....
The probability of serious woe goes way up with only 3 or 2 characters. I would change things, perhaps as mentioned above, if my party was that small. This is a challenging adventure, and I think experienced players will respond to the challenge. Small groups or newbies are just asking for it. Sooner or later they are going to get hurt and changes should definately be made.
After reading responses and seeing how other groups are doing, I think I've decided to play it by ear when the party reaches this area. If they have been having a hard time of it, are badly injured, and/or don't have any magical light, then the room will only be half filled (half empty for you pessimists). If, however, they have been breezing through things, then I'll keep it as is. I have the feeling that this is an encounter that may prove a bit tricky, but will be one of the things the players remember about this dungeon years from now.
While Nived's PCs first plan of action was a good one, their second plan of action was verging on the suicidal. Ghouls aren't weak, and being paralyzed underwater is very, very bad. I think the PCs involved were lucky more than anything, because their plan shouted disaster.
I'll agree to you to a point, it was a rather dumb thing to do trying to tie the rope to the ghoul. That's why I had him take two attacks of opportunity for it... he took a good amount of damage too... but he made his Fort saves to fight of paralyzation. And I had the barbarian make two contested strength rolls to 'reel in' the Ghoul. He passed them.
It could have been a horrible disaster, but the dice were with them.
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I was actually surprized how my players handled this, paranoid of underwater creatures they tapped the surface of the water trying to see if anything was down there... thus drawing out the water elemental. Keeping themselves on dry land and giving them a huge advantage.
For the ghoul (or was it a gast... my memory sucks) only two of the party members went into the water... they tied ropes to themselves with the rest of the partymembers holding onto the other ends of the ropes... they took a third rope intending to tie it to any treasure they find making it easier to bring up... When the dead seeker started attacking the one with the rope took two attacks of opporunity to tie the rope to it... yanking on the rope the rest of the party hauled the ghoul to the stairs... where when it burst out of the water at them and combat ensued... the other players evenutally pulled themselves out of the water to help finish it off. All around smartly played.
Lead to one of the best lines of the game, screaming barbarian "Don't you ever! EVER! Send some crazy undead after me like that again!" He was the first in line hauling in the ropes... he was the strongest.
I think this is one of the more original ways of dealing with the ghoul and funny as hell when you think about :) I can't wait to see what my players do though we prolly won't get this far tonight.