So my players are now recklessly approaching the central shrine of Bhal-Hamatugn. They tussled with the ferryman but he escaped and swam to the shrine and knocked on the high priestess's chamber to be healed, along with alterting the entire place.
The group took out the front guards and interrogated Cherrit and White-Eye (rather well actually). They know that Zenith is here and that there is a large chamber in the center.
I don't anticipate my players slowing down any though. I've given them some warning and they have an idea that the next session will be action-packed. So what I'm looking for is just some ideas on what I can expect if my group charges headlong in this room. Here's the situation as it stands right now:
There are 4 whips and 4 soliders in the room along with the ferryman. He's been healed and was told by Mangh to wait in the room with the whips and alert her when the PC's arrive. The whips have lightning bolts charged and ready. The ferryman will join the fray after he alerts Mangh.
After 20 rounds (2 minutes), Aushanna will arrive. I anticipate the PC's will still be in the room. The battle will take a few rounds and they'll probably spend some time searching the room. Mangh knows Aushanna will be arriving and will wait so that Aushanna can soften them up.
After being alerted, Mangh will start to cast her buff spells and put on her armor. I'll stick to the 5 minute arrival time from the module. I also added a bodyguard/assistant for Mangh in my AP tweaks thread (I did remove another NPC in doing so). It makes this encounter that much more difficult but my BBEG's don't travel alone. Period.
So is this a certain TPK? My group is pretty tough: 7th level dwarf bbn/ftr, cleric, rng/rog, wizard, and 6th level monk, but they definitely have a tendency to barge into things.
So is this a certain TPK? My group is pretty tough: 7th level dwarf bbn/ftr, cleric, rng/rog, wizard, and 6th level monk, but they definitely have a tendency to barge into things.
Adding the ferryman and a bodyguard to the main temple might just tip the scales for a TPK...but I'm not one to make a call on this, since my party was an anomaly in itself with a party of 13 going up against my doubled temple population (I doubled the 4 whips and 4 soldiers to 8 and 8).
If it starts to look like a wipeout of the group, you can always delay or defer the arrival of Aushanna; I gave my party fair warning by having her arrival preceeded by a glowing point in front of the statue that grew gradually brighter - the spellcasters made some spellcraft DC checks and determined that badness was on the way...
(Aushanna's bow of flame is now wielded by my party's Tiefling Ftr7/ 1/2Fiend2...)
M
If it starts to look like a wipeout of the group, you can always delay or defer the arrival of Aushanna; I gave my party fair warning by having her arrival preceeded by a glowing point in front of the statue that grew gradually brighter - the spellcasters made some spellcraft DC checks and determined that badness was on the way...
Yeah, I was thinking something similar. Definitely a good idea.
If it starts to look like a wipeout of the group, you can always delay or defer the arrival of Aushanna; I gave my party fair warning by having her arrival preceeded by a glowing point in front of the statue that grew gradually brighter - the spellcasters made some spellcraft DC checks and determined that badness was on the way...
I did the same thing. The party fled wwhen ashura arived. Next session, we'll deal with her (insert evil GM grin)
b.t.w. I built the central shrine out of cardstock using a worldworks games set a few weeks ago. Here's the finished result.
b.t.w. I built the central shrine out of cardstock using a worldworks games set a few weeks ago. Here's the finished result.
That looks great! I definately endorse decent scenary in the game. It helps everyone visualize what is happening. I have been and am using the Dwarven Forge Mastermaze set pieces. Impressive!
DM Dave
I don't think it is necessarily a TPK waiting to happen. It is good to teach groups to slow down, use strategy, even retreat from time to time. I took the spear guy (can't remember his name) from the work area as he appeared to be superflous and had him acting as Mangh's assistant. A bloody nose can be a good teacher from time to time. Have fun!
DM Dave
I don't think it is necessarily a TPK waiting to happen. It is good to teach groups to slow down, use strategy, even retreat from time to time. I took the spear guy (can't remember his name) from the work area as he appeared to be superflous and had him acting as Mangh's assistant. A bloody nose can be a good teacher from time to time. Have fun!
I've been trying to teach them patience but to no avail as of yet. Heck, they started firing arrows at the ferryman immediately!
Nice props Chef. I spent a lot of time drawing out all 3 levels of the shrine on my battlemat. The 3D room is nice but I think my players would knock it over. :>)
It definately can be TPK... almost any of the encounters here can be. My players were pretty experienced, and very resourceful. A well-thrown tanglefoot bag was the begining of the end for Aushanna.
What was really fun (for me, anyways) was having the priestess raise the water 20 feet, then having the black dragon swim in and have the two of them fighting the party.
That was my own fun since they handled the flying demon so well.
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And, Chef's Slaad... wow... dude... man...! I thought I was in the running for Most Dedicated to the Shackled City Adventure Path (tm), but I must bow in your presence and submit to your dedication.
(My wife also thinks its cool, but that you must have "way too much free time on your hands.")
Very cool.
My opinion? Kill them. Kill them all.
But seriously, oftentimes players want to take unnecessary risks because they can't in real life. So ask yourself this question: is everyone (including you) happy with a game that constantly rewards heroics bordering on foolishness? But if you don't want to run a game like this, you don't have to let the party succeed.
My experience as a PC with Bhal-Hamatugin (sp?) was that stealth was probably wiser than frontal assault. That is usually the case with fortresses. Your PCs appear to have made their presence woefully clear and since the kuo-toa have had the opportunity to re-group, they have every advantage. If you aim to run a realistic (within the realm of fantasy) campaign, then the bad guys will likely slaughter several PCs, if not all. There's nothing wrong with that as long as you know your players aren't going to hang themselves for letting their characters die. If your players have a bad habit of doing this all the time, perhaps they even NEED it to be persuaded to play more intelligently. Some groups just like "break-down-the-door" action though. If that makes them happy and killing them every time they do it would bog down the campaign and make it no fun, feel free to adjust it as you wish.
It definately can be TPK... almost any of the encounters here can be. My players were pretty experienced, and very resourceful. A well-thrown tanglefoot bag was the begining of the end for Aushanna.
What was really fun (for me, anyways) was having the priestess raise the water 20 feet, then having the black dragon swim in and have the two of them fighting the party.
That was my own fun since they handled the flying demon so well.
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And, Chef's Slaad... wow... dude... man...! I thought I was in the running for Most Dedicated to the Shackled City Adventure Path (tm), but I must bow in your presence and submit to your dedication.
(My wife also thinks its cool, but that you must have "way too much free time on your hands.")
Very cool.
My fiance says the same thing.
This build took me two spare mornings I had during a holiday. In all that's about six hours of work. Most of the cuts are pretty straight forward (it's just a square room after all), so the time spent on this particular model wasn't that much. It's a sinch compared to some of the other models (like the Maiden of the High Seas).I usually only build these kind of models for my setpiece battles. I did the lucky monkey a while back, as well as some houses for the umber hulk attack (right here)
And the good thing is that I can have most of the battles (the dragon, Aushanna, Mangh) take place in that one room. That's a lot of game hours I get out of one model.
Not only was there no TPK, no one even died!!
The party found the secret passage from the torture chamber to the back of the shrine. They started buffing in the corridor, including an enlarge person on the monk. They bust in and see the 4 whips at the base on the stairs.
They start to enter the room while the whips buff up. The whips get off a couple of lightning bolts but the wizard, ranger archer, and dwarf bbn/ftr are able to take them down after a few rounds. The ferryman was in the room and he jumped down from the central balcony. He landed a couple of shots but the enlarged PC monk beat the snot out of him.
So I start counting rounds. The PC's cast some heal spells and search the bodies. A couple of rounds before Aushanna appears, the statue starts glowing. I give the PC's a couple of actions (most move toward the secret door entrance) before she appears.
Aushanna started raining arrows on the party until the wizard casts fly on the dwarf. He closes in and crits Aushanna for around 50 or so damage. She charms him. The monk tries a couple of desperation jumps to try to grab her in mid-air but doesn't have much luck. Then he gets a fly spell as well. This was the beginning of the end for Aushanna. Once he got within reach of her, her options were limited. She tried to charm him and entangle him but neither was very effective. He was able to whittle her down and take her out.
I was surprised at the end result but it was a great battle. They worked really well together and superior tactics were definitely the deciding factor.
They haven't faced Mangh yet though. If they face her in their current condition, it could be very bad.
b.t.w. I built the central shrine out of cardstock using a worldworks games set a few weeks ago. Here's the finished result.
Bloody brilliant!! I've never seen anything like that! Card stock, you say? Pretty impressive... my group is just now about to open the main doors, so will be facing it in two weeks. I doubt I have time to set up something like that myself, but I am very impressed. I am a little concerned about their chances for success though... it's a large group, with 7 PCs, 2 NPCs, plus Cherrix in tow. Anyway, our cleric cast a Find Traps spell, got a 17 on his Search check and announced to the party that there are no traps on the double doors!! They're about to get fried! ....grrrr...Haven't they ever heard of taking 20?
Incidentally, I believe the magazine lists an incorrect DC for the Greater Glyph trap. Since Greater Glyph is a 6th level spell, wouldn't the DC be 31? (DC 25 for magical trap, +6 for spell level = 31.)
Anyway, our cleric cast a Find Traps spell, got a 17 on his Search check and announced to the party that there are no traps on the double doors!! They're about to get fried! ....grrrr...Haven't they ever heard of taking 20?
I allways though you can't take 20 on a find trap check (as the consequence of failure is too high)
Incidentally, I believe the magazine lists an incorrect DC for the Greater Glyph trap. Since Greater Glyph is a 6th level spell, wouldn't the DC be 31? (DC 25 for magical trap, +6 for spell level = 31.)
Yeah, but that DC is only for finding and disabling the trap. The Save DC is 10 + caster's wisdom mod + spell level.
I was thinking some more about the tactics for the Kuo Toa whips in the central shrine. Wouldn't splitting up be a much better tactic for them? I mean, they each have 4 lightning bolts that do 4d6 damage and have a save of 17, instead of one 7d6 lightning bolt that has a save DC of 20. It sounds like a better deal to me.... Of course, that's not how the statue was intended, but it's a legal tactic, right?
I allready ran that encounter, using the original tactics (the whips stick together). The PC's killed all the whips and soldiers, then fled when Aushanna appeared.
Next session, they'll return to fight Mangh and probably Aushanna. For tactics, I was of the following: Mangh locks all the doors into the central shrine. However, he leaves the 2nd grand door into the temple open. He rallies all the capable Kuo-Toa in the central shrine (1 whip, 2 fighters), and raises the water level by natural means, up to the level of the central statue.
Mangh uses the time the PC's need to open the first door to cast preperation spells (as per his tactics section).
After all the PC's entered the central shrine, the two kuo-toa fighters close and lock the door. Mangh casts control water, raising the water another 16 feet. PC's (especially those in heavy armor) will be in a lot of trouble. The Kuo-Toa swim around the PC's trying to grapple and drown them with their pincer staffs. Mangh also dives in, but waits for Aushanna to arrive.
In the mean time, he continues to buff himself and casts bestow curse to lower strength on the strongest looking character. The whip gets up on a platform above the water and casts lightning bolt on whoever's head is above water.
Aushanna uses pretty much the same tactics. She uses her rope to entangle swimming foes and tries to drown them.
what do you guys think :-)
I think that's well thought tactics. The only weak point depends on how fast the PCs will understand they have to take control of the doors. If the kuo-toas don't succeed in shutting or closing the doors, water won't rise and it will be a fairly straightforward battle. Same if your PCs can fly. Now, you only have two kuo-toas fighters left and they will have to be very close from the doors if they want to shut them. But if the water rises and flows, perhaps the current is strong enough to trip the PCs like the tremor zones on Occipitus (cf. Test of the Smoking Eye)
I agree with you on the lightning bolts. The battle will be certainly deadlier and challenging. And the letter of the rule is respected. All in all, it's going to be a rough battle.
btw, congratulations for the great work you did on the Lucky Monkey and Bhal Hamatugn ! It's really impressive !
Bran
I allways though you can't take 20 on a find trap check (as the consequence of failure is too high)
You can take 20 on the Search check to find a trap but not on a Disable Device check since there is a chance of failure (you can take 10 though).
Incidentally, I believe the magazine lists an incorrect DC for the Greater Glyph trap. Since Greater Glyph is a 6th level spell, wouldn't the DC be 31? (DC 25 for magical trap, +6 for spell level = 31.)
Yeah, but that DC is only for finding and disabling the trap. The Save DC is 10 + caster's wisdom mod + spell level.
Actually, you are both wrong. The DC for magic traps is independent of the caster who cast it. The formula is DC 10 + spell level x 1.5. Check your SRD. :>)
I was thinking some more about the tactics for the Kuo Toa whips in the central shrine. Wouldn't splitting up be a much better tactic for them? I mean, they each have 4 lightning bolts that do 4d6 damage and have a save of 17, instead of one 7d6 lightning bolt that has a save DC of 20. It sounds like a better deal to me.... Of course, that's not how the statue was intended, but it's a legal tactic, right?
Absolutely legal. And in hindsight, I probably would have done the same thing. I did go for the coolness factor instead though by having the kuo-toas in a semi-circle around the base of the statue chanting. The PC's didn't like that much. ;>)
raises the water level by natural means, up to the level of the central statue.
Just out of curiosity how would he (she in my case) do that? Is there a mechanism for letting water into the shrine? A control water spell won't have anywhere near the area of effect to make any kind of difference.
My players are in the central shrine right now. They went through the prison and entered through the secret door. They fought the whips (and the ferryman) and killed them. They hung around and fought Aushanna and managed to kill her as well. They are now working their way up the shrine (some of the PC's are flying) and started to fight the soldiers guarding the top level and the rope bridge. Next session, I expect them to kill the rest and leave the temple to rest.
I actually plan to have Mangh gather the other whips and soldiers and have them guard the entrance to her chamber. She is also going to send Saagogoi after the PC's (either solo or with some other soldiers - not sure yet) to try to pick them off one by one or drive them off. She will wait in her chamber (along with her monk henchman - see my AP3 thread) until the PC's return.
btw, congratulations for the great work you did on the Lucky Monkey and Bhal Hamatugn ! It's really impressive !
Hey, thanks.
I don't have as many tweaks for AP4 Demonskar but I do have some really cool ideas for the hags. Stay tuned! :>)
I allways though you can't take 20 on a find trap check (as the consequence of failure is too high)You can take 20 on the Search check to find a trap but not on a Disable Device check since there is a chance of failure (you can take 10 though).
right! my bad.
Yeah, but that DC is only for finding and disabling the trap. The Save DC is 10 + caster's wisdom mod + spell level.Actually, you are both wrong. The DC for magic traps is independent of the caster who cast it. The formula is DC 10 + spell level x 1.5. Check your SRD. :>)
I found an entry under magica traps, but not under the spell glyph of warding. I'm not sure which takes presedence, and I'm pretty certain it doesn't really matter in terms of final spell DC.
I found an entry under magica traps, but not under the spell glyph of warding. I'm not sure which takes presedence, and I'm pretty certain it doesn't really matter in terms of final spell DC.
Actually, it could have a substantial difference.
Again, check out the sample traps in the SRD and reverse calculate the DC's.
All of the glyph traps in the SRD have a Reflex save of DC 14, regardless of the level of the cast. Glyph of warding is a 3rd level spell. Using the formula DC 10 + spell level x 1.5:
DC = 10 + 3 x 1.5 = 14 (14.5 rounded down)
The same formula would apply if you stored a spell in the glyph instead of creating a blast effect.
Voila!
I also found it much more effective to have the Whips spread out and each firing lightning bolts separately as the Idol counted for 4 whips (I modified it due to the large size of the group I have playing through it). I also had the Whips standing at various locations in the shrine with the soldiers protecting them.
Later in the game the Sorcerer PC polymorphed into an Umber Hulk to dig through the wall around the trapped double doors. After the pc's fled to recover, I had the assassin stalk them. He actually killed 2 pc's during the course of the game. Since the PCs were gone for more than 24 hours recouperating, I had the Kuo-Toa's coat the inside of the tunnel the sorcerer had left around the door with the same adhesive they used to coat their shields. The first player inside had to make DC 17 Reflex saves not to get stuck, and removing an appendage from the walls caused 1d6 points of damage. It wasn't deadly, but it was a pain in the ass for the PCs and it made me laugh!
I wouldn't be surprised to find out that more parties entered the shrine through the secret door rather than the main entrance.
DM Dave
raises the water level by natural means, up to the level of the central statue.Just out of curiosity how would he (she in my case) do that? Is there a mechanism for letting water into the shrine? A control water spell won't have anywhere near the area of effect to make any kind of difference.
I assumed that the Kuo Toa had some sort of method of (partially) flooding the shrine. It seemed like something they would be able to do. Perhaps for religious ceremonies or something. And the players wheren't really surprised when they came back into the central shrine and found it half flooded. I ruled that the floor had several drainage holes/grills linked to underground rivers and lakes used to flood/drain the shrine. That means all the doors on ground and first floor level had to be waterproof too.
Also, because of the model I used, the difference in hight wasn't as big. And Mangh can easily raise the water 16 feet with a control water spell.
I think that's well thought tactics. The only weak point depends on how fast the PCs will understand they have to take control of the doors. If the kuo-toas don't succeed in shutting or closing the doors, water won't rise and it will be a fairly straightforward battle. Same if your PCs can fly. Now, you only have two kuo-toas fighters left and they will have to be very close from the doors if they want to shut them. But if the water rises and flows, perhaps the current is strong enough to trip the PCs like the tremor zones on Occipitus (cf. Test of the Smoking Eye)
I agree with you on the lightning bolts. The battle will be certainly deadlier and challenging. And the letter of the rule is respected. All in all, it's going to be a rough battle.
btw, congratulations for the great work you did on the Lucky Monkey and Bhal Hamatugn ! It's really impressive !
Bran
Thanks Bran!
It turned out pretty easy for them. They didn't spot the Kuo-Toa by the door, and where off guard when they slammed the central door behind them. The wizard managed to reach high ground before the central shrine was flooded. He cast knock on the door, making it a piece of cake for the fighter to push the doors open again. Of course, the visual of the PC's being flushed out of the temple again was pretty impresive. And it gave the Kuo Toa some precious rounds of breathing space. Of course with Aushanna being summoned, that was exactly what the Kuo-Toa needed.
You're welcome ! I'm glad it helped.
Bran.
Great thread guys, I wish it would have occured before I ran this encounter. Once question. This encounter was a TPK for my guys. While there were many reasons the most obvious to me was the fact that the barb/sor and ftr both failed the will save vs the unhallow spell and were unable to enter. The rest of the party decided to give it a go. How did your parties deal with that
the barb/sor and ftr both failed the will save vs the unhallow spell and were unable to enter. The rest of the party decided to give it a go. How did your parties deal with that
I didn't even use that. I thought it was incredibly stupid and actually has nothing to do with the unhallow spell. There is nothing in the description of unhallow or prot from good that says you can't enter the area. Anything that completely splits up the party based on a single save of course has TPK written all over it.
How did I deal with? I removed it.
James also removed it from the HC. 'Twas indeed an error