I'm a player about to start in a Rise of the Runelords campaign and so we're all talking about characters and house rules. Many of the players are concerned that though this campaign says it is made for 4 characters of 1st level, that may not actually be the case (we've had some bad experiences with that sort of thing before).
So far, our parameters are 1st level, 32 point buy, SRD only, and (probably) 5 players.
Is that appropriate to start out this series? We've talked about upping skillpoints, or hit points, or starting at level 2 or 3, or starting with a free CLW wand. I've played the start of Burning Sky (which was overly deadly) and Age of Worms (which seemed just about right). Where does Runelords fall in the deadliness spectrum? Can normal roleplayers survive without help, or does it assume an uber squad of tweaked out munchkins drawing exploits from every splat book and magazine under the sun?
And PLEASE, no spoilers! :)
From what I've read so far (which is about half of the adventure at this point), the adventure doesn't seem to be much more deadly than any other 1st-level adventure that I would write. I do believe that the adventure can get dangerous depending on how much of it the PCs are able to skip over, but if the PCs follow it through most of the combat and locations that are detailed, they should be fairly equal to the threats they face.
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I'm a player about to start in a Rise of the Runelords campaign and so we're all talking about characters and house rules. Many of the players are concerned that though this campaign says it is made for 4 characters of 1st level, that may not actually be the case (we've had some bad experiences with that sort of thing before).
So far, our parameters are 1st level, 32 point buy, SRD only, and (probably) 5 players.
Is that appropriate to start out this series? We've talked about upping skillpoints, or hit points, or starting at level 2 or 3, or starting with a free CLW wand. I've played the start of Burning Sky (which was overly deadly) and Age of Worms (which seemed just about right). Where does Runelords fall in the deadliness spectrum? Can normal roleplayers survive without help, or does it assume an uber squad of tweaked out munchkins drawing exploits from every splat book and magazine under the sun?
And PLEASE, no spoilers! :)
You don't like munchkins? I love munchkins, they're tasty with ketchup! As far as how deadly is an adventure? That depends a lot on the 'luck' of the dice (or die, if you prefer), doesn't it? I've seen 5 kobolds tpk a group of 5 3rd level adventurers. If you're having a bad day at the table, and the DM is on fire, you're toast. The opposite also applies too, as I've seen a group of 3rd levelers take out a CR7 in 2 rounds without a scratch.
SRD only? Who'd a thunk it? Base character classes and everything from the PH, almost no prestige classes, (just in DMG). I like that actually, as I don't stray from those very often anyway. Though I do stray for some of those cool feats.
SRD only? Who'd a thunk it? Base character classes and everything from the PH, almost no prestige classes, (just in DMG). I like that actually, as I don't stray from those very often anyway. Though I do stray for some of those cool feats.
The SRD has some cool feats that aren't in the Player's Handbook. Open Minded gets used a lot in our group, for example.
Creative Director
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My estimation is that Runelords is more or less as deadly as Savage Tide or Age of Worms. It's the same folk building them, after all. We've refined our methods a bit, and if we intentionally put in something that's SUPPOSED to be a wake-up call and really deadly (such as Age of Worms' acid beetle swarm), we'll try to put in a designer's note sidebar to explain our motives and put up a red flag.
That said... 32 point buy and 5 characters should be fine. That's what I'm using in the Savage Tide campaign I'm running on Saturday (my group's about to face a lot of pirates in 2 hours, in fact), and I'm also using hero points (spend a point to stop tragedy or do something really awesome), and it's all working out really well.
OTOH, my party's six 32-point PCs took a good 6 rounds (incurring noticeable damage) to take out Gresgurt . . .
I'm also using hero points (spend a point to stop tragedy or do something really awesome), and it's all working out really well.
Hero points rule. We tried 'em once and were hooked thereafter; can't imagine playing without 'em (action points are OK in a pinch).
So depending on your play style, you may want to boost the PCs. I've found (not a criticism, just reality) that previous Adventure Paths are certainly designed for people who have considerable skill and well min-maxed characters. ELs are often way above the recommended. Parties need to be decent sized (6), high stats, and very optimized to do well in Worms etc. as written.
I tend to run campaign with more organically-grown well-rounded characters (normal stat rolling, one time), limit prestige class access and magic item access, etc. so I have to tone things down or go for higher level PCs.
Uh oh...
This is actually the first paizo adventure path I'm gonna GM, so I have no experience with the difficulty factor the adventures are tied to...
Well...does that mean I was a bit blind-sighted when I granted my (5) players point buy 28...?
In other words, have they any chance to survive this?
best regards, Daniel
From whence are these Hero Points of which you speak?
I'm familiar with Action Points and Force Points (Eberron, Modern, & Star Wars/Saga), but not so much with Hero Points.
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Creative Director
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Uh oh...
This is actually the first paizo adventure path I'm gonna GM, so I have no experience with the difficulty factor the adventures are tied to...
Well...does that mean I was a bit blind-sighted when I granted my (5) players point buy 28...?
In other words, have they any chance to survive this?
best regards, Daniel
It depends on your GM style. Our adventure paths do make some assumptions, though; they assume that the PCs are well-balanced in their abilities, that the players aren't new to D&D, that the characters don't try to finish entire adventures without resting, that the characters try to use non-combat solutions to certain encounters, and that the characters know when to run away.
Five PCs with a 28 point buy build should be fine, though.
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Creative Director
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From whence are these Hero Points of which you speak?
I'm familiar with Action Points and Force Points (Eberron, Modern, & Star Wars/Saga), but not so much with Hero Points.
Hero points are sort of a home-made system that varies from game group to game group. For my own campaign, I give each PC a hero point when they start a new character, and another one if they provide a detailed backstory for the character. They get hero points for reaching key parts of the campaign, and then individually get hero points when their characters do something especially heroic and brave, or when the player or character does something really memorable (even if that's a sub-optimal choice for their character).
The players can then spend hero points in two ways. If something BAD happens to their character, they can spend a hero point to undo that something, be it a failed saving throw, a broken magic item, death, or whatever. They can also spend a hero point to "supercharge" an action; they basically say what they want to happen, roll the dice as normal, and then the hero point makes whatever they did work REALLY well. If their dice rolled poorly, the hero point may just let their action function anyway. If the dice roll hot, their action does something normally beyond the scope of the game.
As an example, in the game I ran yesterday, a PC used a hero point to supercharge a suggestion spell that the flying bad guy come down to fight the PCs on the ground and to avoid using his flight (since few of the PCs at the time had the resources to handle a flying foe). He rolled the SR check, and failed. The hero point stepped in there and made the SR check succeed, and then gave the bad guy a severe penalty on his saving throw. Had the player beaten the foe's SR AND had the foe failed his saving throw, then the hero point wouldn't have needed to use its power to fix those rolls. Instead, I would have had the hero point do something extraordinary, such as having the suggestion be SO POWERFUL that it damaged the foe's mind, inflicting 2d4 points of Wisdom damage or something like that. There's no hard and fast rules to how hero points work in my game.
I also made up little cards that say HERO across the top and that have customized art that matches each PC, so that when they get or spend a card, they get or give me back one of their cards.
Hero points are sort of a home-made system that varies from game group to game group.
For people who prefer hard-and-fast rules, Monte Cook outlines a system in Arcana Evolved, his variant Players Handbook. My group first came across the concept in Victory Games' James Bond 007 rules, in which they were sort of midway between Monte's Hero Points and the SRD's Action Points.
James--I love the idea of using cards in play--I'll have to start using that. Thanks!
Uh oh...
This is actually the first paizo adventure path I'm gonna GM, so I have no experience with the difficulty factor the adventures are tied to...
Well...does that mean I was a bit blind-sighted when I granted my (5) players point buy 28...?
In other words, have they any chance to survive this?
best regards, Daniel
It depends on your GM style. Our adventure paths do make some assumptions, though; they assume that the PCs are well-balanced in their abilities, that the players aren't new to D&D, that the characters don't try to finish entire adventures without resting, that the characters try to use non-combat solutions to certain encounters, and that the characters know when to run away.
Five PCs with a 28 point buy build should be fine, though.
Thank you very much for the quick reply...
I think I'll stick with 28 point buy then and let's see how this plays out...
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Here's my take on Hero/Plot/Destiny points; some of it swiped from outside sources, some my own.
Destiny Points: At character creation (and after appropriate acts of Dramatic Heroism), PCs gain one Destiny Point (also referred to as I Have Done A Silly Thing Tokens), which can be used for any of the following effects:
1) Automatically score a Critical Hit (no attack roll required).
2) Automatically cause an attack made against you to miss (even once the attack is resolved).
3) Act out of turn (changing your position in the initiative order).
4) Take damage that would otherwise harm another character within your reach.
5) Add +20 to a skill check or saving throw.
-JLA
Thanks for all the comments!
I am Ki Ryn's future GM (from the original post), and I appreciate the feedback.
I was receptive to a hero point system when the players proposed it. Something with the same basic loose structure as described here.. you know, just some bad luck insurance to get through a few levels. Some players thought it might undermine the core integrity of the game, but I disagreed.
So I might revisit hero points if the first session looks problematic, but I tend to roll only average. We'll see how it goes. I don't intend to allow an arbitrary party wipe, I'm after a story not a tactical fantasy combat simulation.
As for SRD only.. I'm exploring house rules and varaints as they are proposed. The idea was simplicity, not necessarily tight control.
My player is using the 4 pre-generated characters, and they're doing fine.
My player is using the 4 pre-generated characters, and they're doing fine.
In defense of my players.. One of them playtested 3.0 when it first came out. His big critique was that the modules (showing my age with that reference) were very misleading in what they were designed for.. In terms of minimum players required and what the necessary level was.
That is, they were designed with munchkins already in mind.
I skipped all of that.
This is the first 3.5 I have ever played. I herald from the days of hardback AD&D. I bought an inexpensive used Player's Handbook and got loaned some other 3.5 books. I am running Rise of the Runelords because after a decade or so, I sort of miss DnD. I'm also running this campaign based on testimonials that Paizo makes a good product.
Anyway, I think my players were scarred by those experiences, and I think they're used to a more adverserial GM. I'm a storyteller, and while I want to present a meaningful challenge, I don't expect to 'win' because I'm not competition with the players.
I think it will all be okay. :)