This "god" is mentioned in "Wrath of the Abyss" in Dungeon 119, but without much information attached to it. I'd like some more information on this being. Yes, it only figured breifly into the adventure, but an adventure that so involves Abyssal entities and the like should detail- if only briefly- Any beings being worshiped in it. Some info on it would be appreciated.
If it IS detailed in the adventure, please tell me where, because I missed it.
As an aside, both this and the previous entry in the Istvin series look really good (I missed Dungeon 117, but i'm sure that one's good too). I might enjoy running them, if i ever get a group together (*sounds of muttered cursing*). They seem a bit deadly in places, espically the final battle with The Magloth, but that might just be my imagination.
Overall, its a great adventure, with a lot of things one could mine for a campaign. It just seems to be missing a few pieces. ;p
The Elder Elemental Eye is another name for Tharizdun. Details on him are in the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, Living Greyhawk Campaign Guide, and Dragon 294. Probably you can find info about him from other sources too, but those are the 3E/3.5E descriptions of him that I know of.
In a nutshell, Big T is a crazy god who was banished by all the other gods because he wants to destroy everything. His clerics make good entropomancer villains too.
there is also a short write up of Tharzy in The complete Divine.
I for one however find return to the temple of Elemental Evils attemot to make Tharizudun and the Elder Elemental god the same entity lame, and unfortunatly in defiance of most of what has been written about the subject before.
Actaully, I half-expected a response like "There isn't a lot of info on TEEE per se", so this was very helpful. It gives me room to use him as I please, should I ever get a game going. That he's linked to Tharizdun makes fleshing him out easier.
I am strongly considering ordering 117, as i liked Part 2 and 3- Dungeon should consider running shorter arcs more often. Because they work SO WELL.
Again, congrats on making this thing work. You've sold me on Dungeon, man.;p
Greg V wrote:
"The Elder Elemental Eye with Ghaunadar as seemed to be the trend in some of the drow sources."
I was not happy with that either :-P
"Like a great Lovecraft story (or an episode of the X-files), there may simply not be an answer about these two..."
This is precisely why I take issue with it. Gygax understood that mysteries without "official" answers are paradise for GMs with creative streaks.
RttToEE seems more in line with the uberlame Forgotten Realms-ish philosophy of there having to be a "canon" published answer for every g#~+$&n question under the sun.
Fie on that, I say! Leave me, as a GM, something to work with and to mold. The more of a disperity between big questions and big answers, the more I can respect and enjoy and, most importantly, use a published setting.
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This "god" is mentioned in "Wrath of the Abyss" in Dungeon 119, but without much information attached to it. I'd like some more information on this being. Yes, it only figured breifly into the adventure, but an adventure that so involves Abyssal entities and the like should detail- if only briefly- Any beings being worshiped in it. Some info on it would be appreciated.
If it IS detailed in the adventure, please tell me where, because I missed it.
As an aside, both this and the previous entry in the Istvin series look really good (I missed Dungeon 117, but i'm sure that one's good too). I might enjoy running them, if i ever get a group together (*sounds of muttered cursing*). They seem a bit deadly in places, espically the final battle with The Magloth, but that might just be my imagination.
Overall, its a great adventure, with a lot of things one could mine for a campaign. It just seems to be missing a few pieces. ;p
Additionally, check out Oerth Journal #12 for an interview with Gary Gygax that discusses Tharizdun and the EEE.
A collection of Oerth Journals can be found at http://www.canonfire.com/htmlnew/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&a mp;pid=2
By the way, this adventure makes a very good follow-up to Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. See below for spoiler information that explains a connection between the two adventures.
As suggested at the end of "Abyss," one could add on the Harrowing from Dungeon #84, which would then create a parallel adventure path reminiscent of the original Temple of Elemental Evil to GDQ adventure paths.
Be sure to check out Dragon #298 for information on the Vault of the Drow including Eilservs' recent ascension in Erelhei-Cinlu.
Note: Eclavdra redeemed herself as a follower of Lolth while she played the role of ambassador to Iuz. This is somewhat detailed in WGR5: Iuz the Evil.
Spoiler info below!
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There are two drow from the House Eilservs in RToEE, and they could be connected back to the drow in the Wrath of the Abyss adventure. The idea of a faction of house Eilservs worshipping EEE has been prominent in several Greyhawk references.
Equating the Elder Elemental God and He Who Must Not Be Named is a perfectly fine move for an individual campaign, a foolish, shortsighted, illegitimate one for 'canon'.
The whole point of Ghaunadaur, from its first appearance in FOR2, is that it's the incarnation of the Elder Elemental God in the Realms.
To each his or her own. I determined EEG to be an aspect of Tharizdun in "reality" but not to the awareness of the EEG's followers.
In fact, it's not uncommon for cults to end up following a diety unbeknownst to the followers; often they worship one entity not realizing it is actually another. That's an idea that I liked about the relationship between the EEG and Tharizdun. it may not work for you some, but it works in my campaign.
These are questions I've been wrestling with for over a year now, since I recently ran the original TOEE and had to know what was going on, even if my players didn't. I've come almost full circle on the topic, but I suppose the answer that the EEG is Tharizdun, or at least is an aspect of Tharizdun, is what I've come to accept. It certainly beefs up the danger of letting the Cult of the Elder Elemental God exist...
Still would like to know what the survivors of the Elemental Evil cult are doing, though...
But neither the Elder Elemental God nor He Who Was Bound are involved in the published T1-4...
From a Q&A with Gary Gygax in Oerth Journal #12:
"You have sussed out a dark secret! The EEG was indeed meant by
me to have a place in the very nethermost recesses of the ToEE. An anomaly there allowed him to manifest a portion of himself, and by doing the wrong (right from the DM’s point of view) thing the adventurers could release him also! Of course that would counter somewhat the freeing of Zuggtmoy, had she been loosed, so on balance it could serve to redress that error. But, alas, I was too busy with other things at the time when the project was being completed. As it was already quite hefty, I decided to omit any mention of this to Frank Mentzer, and so the ToEE was released with only the Eye of Fire as a clue to what I should have included in the adventure."
The rest of the interview is a very good reference on various points of the EEG.
It was a welcome relief from what I interpreted as the 2e movement to equate The Elder Elemental Eye with Ghaunadar as seemed to be the trend in some of the drow sources.
I'm not sure I understand your point. Ghaunadaur IS the Elder Elemental Eye. It's just a Forgotten Realms name for the exact same deity found in the Greyhawk campaign. If you go back and compare the original write-up of Ghaunadaur in FOR2 - Drow of the Underdark with the original write-up of the Elder Elemental Eye in G3 - Hall of the Fire Giant King, you can see they are the same god.
That said, it's a reasonable argument as to whether identical deities should be found in both Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms, but that's been the "D&D norm" for demihuman races (of which drow are a subrace) since 1st edition.
--Eric
For example, I do not quite like that Monte Cook (in RttToEE) considers EEG an aspect of Tharizdun. Initially, this seems good! But if you research it a little bit, it is hard to agree with that, since, while both deities are primordial and evil, EEG is of creation while Tharizdun is of decay.
I'm currently running RttToEE, and I've been struggling with this myself. After reading Gygax's rendition of EEG, I prefer the EEG to Tharizdun. I'm thinking of making them actual seperate deities, not the same, and altering teh adventure such that the Doomdreamers have manipulated and deceived (or possibly threatened) the clerics of EEG into thinking they actually worship the same deity in an effort to garner more power for Tharizdun in their attempts to free him. This will take some finessing of the adventure and certain elements, but it will also help me to include EEG and Tharizdun in my later adventures without having to worry about the two being the same.
PS - Want even more confusion? Check out the section titled "Canon" at http://pages.sbcglobal.net/zimriel/NightBelow/tharreview3.html
I've been thinking about it some more. I came up with a few hypothetical questions as a result.
Here's what we have:
The Elder Elemental God
The Elder Elemental Eye
Tharizdun
What if EEG and Tharizdun were different gods?
What if EEE was a bastardization of EEG as part of Zuggtmouy's effort to garner more forces?
What if the Doomdreamers tricked worshippers of EEG into beleiving that Tharizdun was a "second coming" of the EEG? What if the Doomdreamers were tricked into thinking EEG and Tharizdun were the same when it is really the EEG decieving the Doomdreamers, who are in turn trying to rally worshippers of the EEE/EEG to free Tharizdun, and in actuality they are really freeing EEG?
With matronly fury {Beory} smote the evil god with her powerful staff, instantly changing the EEG into a column of stone. She followed this with a second terrible blow that reduced the column to rubble.
All that remained of the EEG were chunks of cloudy, translucent, mauve and red stone. In some shards shapeless forms of purple, yellow, and green swayed and danced, in others horrible, mauvesplotched, hairy tentacles writhed, and in one a huge fiery-orange eye burned with hatred and vengeance.
Beory swept away these evil fragments and hid them away in the darkest recesses of Oerth. There she hoped they would remain hidden from her children forever. Such were the past eons. Now a few depraved enclaves have discovered some of these shards and are making it their mission to find more. In fact, the EEG was not destroyed but entrapped by Beory’s blow.
As a result the deity is crippled and can only access the Prime Material plane through these fragments. It greatly desires to be freed.
This really makes it easy to twist things around without changin the adventure much, if at all. The obelisk under the moathouse could be one such fragment, sticking to the original plan Gygax had in mind for the temple.
Any thoughts?
Thanks, Greg! I appreciate the compliments! Here's a footnote from OJ#12 for everyone chew on a bit.
Vilp-akf ’cho Rentaq is but one of three EEG’s. Ghaunadaur is another and there is yet a third, unnamed EEG. All three share the inverted triangle symbol and the same true form. All are dark creative deities who thrive in the elemental chaos of primordial universes. Although never together, depictions always show them as a trio, typically being worshipped by numerous sentient creatures of many different worlds and universes. It is thought that this is merely symbolic and that it is a representation of the beings across temporal, spatial, and other dimensions. Nonetheless, there is a definite unity in the triumvirate beings. Indeed, the inverted triangle symbol used to represent them is one triangle made-up of three equal triangles.
I'd also like to make a correction. The write-up of EEG in OJ#12 was a collaborative effort between the author and Gygax, not a write-up by Gygax only. This shouldn't make a difference in the meaning of the concept, however.