As has already been mentioned and argued a bit on the thread: "What's everyone's favourite class?" I do not like the rules governing bards and inspiration (See that thread for details).
A few folks (including some who work for Dungeon) have challenged my opinion. However I have also come to understand that there is some support for the stance that the rules are just plain silly.
Read the first few posts in "What's everyone's favourite class?" and then come back swinging!
Ding! Ding!
GGG
Rather than say exactly what I said before, I'd like to discuss the mechanics themselves, stripped of flavor.
Courage, Competence, Greatness, Heroics: The bard has the ability to give people morale bonuses to hit and damage at low levels, competence bonuses to skill checks at early mid levels, competence bonuses to attack and Fort saves (and hit points) at mid levels, and a morale bonus to AC and saves at high levels. Mechanically, the bard gets these abilities often enough to make them useful, and the abilities, while not awe-inspiring, are good enough that other classes can concentrate on things other than buffing with their spells.
The bard's suggestion ability is extremely useful provided that the campaign is right. In a political intrigue campaign, it's fantastic. In a dungeon hack, it's limited.
Countersong: Limited enough to almost be flavor-text. I don't see this one come up very often unless I deliberately write something in as a DM to make the bard use this.
Fascinate: Useful in campaigns when the DM hasn't got nothing but rooms full of immediately hostile monsters. Yeah, in some campaigns, this isn't useful. In a campaign in which all the opponents are undead, Clerics are more powerful than rogues. In the average campaign, though, I'd rank Fascinate as decent. Not fantastic, but decent.
Freedom: A great way to remove some effects without burning valuable spell slots in other casters -- provided that you've got a minute to spend. This makes it a very useful spell out of combat. If you've got a campaign where casters might ever run out of spells and where bad guys use spell-like abilities on a regular basis, this ability is really helpful.
Spells: Good as utility spells. Better at buffing people than delivering damage. The bard is easily the weakest Caster Level == Class Level caster out there, but he's not really meant to compete with the party wizard or cleric in spellcasting. The wizard and cleric have 2 skill points per level and generally lackluster class skills.
Skills: Rockin'. Very very rockin'. Enough flexibility to allow a lot of different character concepts, and enough skill points to let you be good at a lot of stuff.
Lore: Bardic lore is, in my opinion, wonderful -- because it gives the DM a great chance to give out information when people don't have ranks in the appropriate knowledge skill. While this is great for DMs, and a good DM can make it very useful for the party, it's not exactly a stunner of a cool thing for the party bard. This ability gets much cooler if the DM plans enough to write down information on cards and then hands them to the bard's player, so that the bard's player can give the party the information himself. Saying, "Yes, you know that..." and then explaining everything as the DM doesn't make the bard's player look cooler, even if it's the bard who knew that information and got it for the party.
General offensive ability: Not wonderful. The bard can get himself to the point where he can hit once per round (buff spells, bardic performances on himself, etc), but he'll never be a big damage disher like the rogue (who is essentially the bard, combat-wise, with sneak attack). This means that the bard is better served by waiting for good opportunities to hit than trying to rush into combat and help out from the front. A bard with a bow who sings and readies actions to fire at spellcasters can help out a ton. He's a precision attacker, not a damage-disher. Both are useful.
General defensive ability: The bard is problematic here. He usually wants the equipment that would go to either the party ranger or the party spellcaster, so he's either got a lousy AC or a good AC and half the party's armor/rings/bracers. Again, the bard isn't meant to be a front-row fighter.
What he can do that nobody else can: The bard is the best buffer in the game, hands down, based on the number of times per day that he can do it and the length of time he can keep it going. The bard also fulfills the important party role of utility man. A Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, and Rogue are a decent 4-person party. If you have a 5th player, the best roles for him are utility roles, roles that cross traditional class-duty barriers. Rangers (bit of fighter, bit of rogue, bit of druid), Monks (bit of fighter, bit of rogue, massively defensive), and Bards (bit of every class) are the best options for this Utility Player slot. The bard can help the traditional party of four by buffing and assisting in combat, handling the social skills to give the rogue a chance to focus on traps or other skill areas, and round out spellcasting areas that the Wizard and Cleric don't have.
Where he stinks: A campaign with little social-skill use and a lot of combat, especially if the party has a chance to rest regularly -- meaning that casters are almost always running on full, and the bard isn't needed.
Where he rocks: A roleplaying-heavy or social-skill heavy game. Unpredictable games, where the party isn't sure what's going to happen on a daily basis -- maybe today we're in tense negotiations, but then there's fighting, and then there's going to be some exploration and skill use, and then... that's when the bard rocks.
In short: Take the rogue, lose the coolest offensive power, and gain some spells and utility buff abilities. In some campaigns, that's a lousy trade. In some campaigns, it's a great trade. It always depends.
I totally agree with Patrick, Bard is from my point of view party's speaker (social), library (knowledge) and support (combat). And with Use Magic Device skill (which is fortunatelly for Bard based on Charisma) he can use offensive magic stuff too, like Wand of Fireball etc.
I totally agree with Patrick, Bard is from my point of view party's speaker (social), library (knowledge) and support (combat). And with Use Magic Device skill (which is fortunatelly for Bard based on Charisma) he can use offensive magic stuff too, like Wand of Fireball etc.
And I totally agree with him too. My argument is not whether the class is useful or not - If there was a class that could breath a cone of +1 vorpral flaming burst hamsters that did 24d6+24 points of gnawing damage (Handle Animal Check DC 10 + one-half class level for half damage) that would be useful too. It would totally destroy any sense of disbelief on the part of the players and DM and probably make me not want to play said game (I could always play Teenagers from Outerspace for that sort of game). Still there is no denying it would be useful trick.
If you are new to this discussion please refer to my comments in the What's-Your-Favourite-Class?-thread where this all started.
In a nutshell I boils down to this: By the rules bards can inspire groups of characters to competance and greatness by performing for SIX SECONDS (and let's face it unless the player wants to handicap themselves - this will always be singing or something else NOT requiring an instrument). Now is it just me or is that stupid. Mel Gibson's stirring "they'll never take away our freedom!" speach and Lincoln's "Gettysburg address" where I think more in line with the way inspiration should work. No-one realistically has time to listen to someone orate or sing about anything in a typical fighting dungeon encounter. My complaint therefore is that while most of the other classes retain some nominal semblence to reality one of the most fundamental abilities given to bards doesn't and should be changed.
I have yet to hear anything that sways me much from this opinion aside from one person who said their bard acted like a marine drill instructor, which while novel and funny still probably belongs to the realm of comedy. I personally would like to see a class that accurately captures the feel of the source material which would most-likely be Alan Adale from Robin Hood or maybe Luthien from the Tolkien's Simirillion, or Fflewdurr Fflamm from Lloyd Alexander's Taran series. None of these folks spent a second inspiring people when sudden battle was joined. Although they were all quite useful and inspirational and knowledgable they did not start singing or orating (even for six seconds) at the beginning of any fight that I've read about. They pulled weapons and fought or cast spells - that is more inspirational than anything that anyone could say in such a situation. "Look at that guy out there in the thick of things - not much armor, not much magic but trying just the same." That's inspiring. So why do the rules say that the very people who inspired the class the way Aragorn IS THE RANGER - Why are these characters wrong?
-GGG
Interesting points. Now that I think about it that way, you're right. The bard is useful, but his bardsong abilities don't really map well to a lot of the fiction out there. They actually map better to history -- the drummer or piper marching along with the American revolutionaries whose spirited song keeps morale up and helps people keep their timing during the batttles, for example.
From fantasy fiction, off the top of my head, the closest thing I see is the minstrel. In fantasy fiction, the minstrel rarely sings or even shouts encouragement during battle. His songs are almost entirely done around the campfire or during the journey. This is big for morale -- a lot of times, he's described as raising people's spirits or keeping them going. In D&D terms, this would be something like a small but long-lasting morale boost to attacks or saves or something -- a bardsong that takes an hour or so of mostly continuous playing to activate, but which lasts all day thereafter. From a team perspective, that's cool, but it'd be truly dull to play as a player, unless I had much better other abilities. "Yeah, I'm a rogue, except that I can't sneak attack, I occasionally cast spells, and I give people a +1 on all attacks and saves as long as they listen to me around the campfire."
On the other hand, I can see the minstrel shouting something heroic at the beginning of the battle -- and your comment about it taking six full seconds isn't quite accurate, since he's still got a move action. He can draw his sword and shout, "To arms, to arms! Let your blades ring true, sons of Mishal Tirac!" And if he's beyond first level, he can do that while moving his normal movement rate. Fantasy fiction is actually full of that sort of thing -- when ninjas pounce upon the heroes, there's one guy who shouts something while drawing his sword, one guy who immediately launches a flurry of arrows at the bad guys (an archer with quick draw), and one guy who charges forward and immediately attacks. From a dramatic perspective, drawing your sword, pointing at the enemy, and shouting is perfectly viable.
So actually, now that I think about it, it works from a game perspective -- a boost that takes a round to activate but lasts for a long time, so it's good in any fight that is going to last more than one round -- and it also works from a dramatic perspective. The only place where it doesn't work is where you take the flavor of his abilities and apply gaming standards to them.
When you think about it, how often in fantasy fiction to people stop and pray to their gods for six full seconds at the beginning of a nasty fight while arrows are flying at your friends and monsters are charging? This logic would make "Protection from Evil" a lousy fit for D&D, except that it doesn't really take six seconds, and it's not JUST stopping to pray to one's god. But flavorwise, you don't make it sound like you're dropping to your knees and ignoring the incoming peril. You flavor it as raising your warhammer and shouting, "Ghaeldir, lord of battle, let my strikes ring true!" in the ancient language of your deity's choice.
Why even limited inspiration to Bards?
It seems more realistic that the ever-hacking, never-failing Fighter is going to be raising greater morale and inspiring greater courage by downing three foes with one Great Cleave; not the "no good for combat" chatty, less than powerful spell-rogue (without sneak attack) Bard by plucking a few strings.
What shall be the fate of Bards? See Downer #1! =P
Actually Patrick, I like the idea that bards give a long term bonus just by hanging out around the campfire leading Spock and McCoy in a stirring round of "Row, Row, Row Your Boat". Perhaps characters pass endurance checks easier, heal quicker, can continue the quest on less supplies, etc... That makes sense. The bard being there made the trip less awful. Though I believe that the Bard Class would then need to be balanced in some other way. Perhaps with Insightful Strike or a dodge bonus based on level, Int or Cha (she's just clever or she can taunt her enemy into mistakes). Both of those optinons derive inpart from the Swashbuckler Class given in the "Complete Warrior". Since bards are usually portrayed as swashbukler types why not give them swashbuckler abilities? The bard could still inspire people to greatness (even armies at higher levels) but it takes longer (like a minute or so).
-=Crumbles=- hits the nail on the head. Who is more inspiring in a battle than a Fighter Class character rushing into the thick of things or the Paladin astride her snowy white mount, silvery lance in hand or perhaps a barbarian standing hip-deep in downed foes like Conan might? The singing sniper is not my idea of inspirational. The rules say it works - but I find it difficult to believe.
If all else fails and the group is starving to death they might eat the bard; more cause for rejoicing.
Koombya,
-GGG
Patrick missed one area the bard excels in - disarming and tripping. The bard is the only class proficient with the lowly whip. This means - as long as the bard can continue to take 5' steps - he can trip and/or disarm with impunity on the battlefield.
***
Now, with that out of the way, time to get back to more on-topicness. I think Taricus provided the best answer yet. It's magic. It doesn't really have to make sense from the viewpoint of the real world.
Don't get me wrong - I often times find that very defense to be a poor one. But I think in this case, it works just fine.
I'm sorry but the cause "it's magic" line holds about as much water as the classic "Why?" "Because I said so." argument.
My retort is naturally "Why? Bards don't seem any more magical than wizards who have to operate though their own (also somewhat flawed) paradigm." The bard's though counterdicts itself. Wizards have to prepare spells (which is mostly invisible in game play) but bards have to pipe in everytime there is a significant challenge presented to the group. It just seems pretty stupid to have to recount the tale of the-guy-who-jumped-really-really-far each time someone in the party needs to. It just cheapens the effect. Bards must specically perform in order to inspire. How they perform is up to the player, still I don't see any amount of tapdancing, stand-up comedy, armpit noises, motivational speeches or triangle playing inspiring someone to move more silently or fight harder (especially since if you are the one affected you probably can't listen or watch). By giving the class this rather lame rule - the bard in question must whip out his tuba and play umpa music for six-seconds before he gets any effect. And by the rules he should be able to. Now why would he want to? He won't if he was smart he would just say "Yo Joe!" and fire his semi-auto ballistic composite bow. Since he doesn't have to stop he can just continue yelling (and he would have to, to be heard over the ring of swords and armor happening about thrity feet away). Sounds really inspiring doen't it? It must be magic because the scene doesn't inspire anything more than laughter in me.
Wizards by the way use super secret wizardary words and are intelligent and tend to carry magic sticks of various sizes and wear robes - sounds pretty similar to the archtypes to me. Bards meanwhile seem to carry whips and ranged weapons instead of actual musical instruments and they hum six-second concertos or shout encouragement from behind the lines. Hmmm not exactly archtypical and if we are talking different flavor of the core concept well then this bard isn't even in the same food group as the literary ones. It's like comparing kibble to caviar.
Bards don't need to be social critters by the "everything they say is magic" argument. Now like the most intorverted, pasty-skinned wizard they can whip up their own dates using geas and charm. Who needs smooth words with magic?
Bards are a complete package they tend to be by literary archtype rakish, charming, knowledgable, endearing people. Sometimes they are played for laughs but no-one ever doubts that they full of hope and a lot of heart. I have always liked the bard but pinning the poorly conceived inspiration rules on them is like having David Hasselhoff play Nick Fury - just plain silly. The rule needs to be fixed.
As for the chain weilding bountyhunter very nice. I'm sure he uses his bardic knowledge to full-effect on the probably famous PCs. Does he inspire his minions with his beautiful singing voice or does he pepper his spiked chain with slay-bells.
Pardon that last pun but I couldn't resist.
GGG
Oh and I almost forgot. Even if it is magic being woven it needs to look cool and be heroic. They don't carry cheerleaders off the field in glory after the big game unless they suit up and make the touchdown. And nobody looks cool lip-synching Creed tunes in the middle of a sudden life-or-death situation (even in actual Creed videos).
And to all a good night,
GGG
See, but fundamentally, you're applying your own flavor, saying, "That flavor makes no sense," and using that to judge the bard. For what it's worth, I agree with you. :)
Of course, I've also been inspired by having something loud playing on the radio while I'm doing bag-work or shadowboxing, and I've been inspired by a coach's pep-talk. The only difference between that and the bard is that I don't have you telling me what kind of music I was listening to or what my coach said, and why therefore it was stupid of me to feel inspired by that stuff.
I mean, yeah, if I was listening to "Don't it make my brown eyes blue", then I was kinda lame for getting inspired to keep my intensity up and beat the heck out of that bag. I give you that. But that wasn't what I was listening to. And you don't get to decide what my bard sounds like.
Given the level of historical accuracy in Dungeons & Dragons, I'm fully justified in making my bard sound like the Queen's "Princes of the Universe" if I have a bunch of Highlander fans for buddies and decide that's a cool effect -- because it's not just him playing. It's a limited-uses-per-day magical ability. Or I can just as easily say, "Yeah, it sounds like a flute, but to people who've grown up with flute music, this is the fluting equivalent of someone totally rocking out to 'Princes of the Universe', so act like you're hearing the equivalent of that."
What, you're going to tell me that holding up a cross and saying Hail Marys is stupid because skeletons don't have eyes and probably don't come from a monotheistic society that even had a Virgin Mary in the first place, and then use that logic to decide that turning undead is also broken? Because that's what turning undead is, right? Cross, Hail Marys? Come on, who holds up a cross for six full seconds when vampires and zombies are coming towards them? How stupid is that?
You're trapped in flavor text you don't like. Applying this same logic to other classes and abilities would also make them sound pretty stupid. If you don't like the bard, that's fine. You don't have to like the bard. It's not a law. But I think you would benefit from an honest assessment of your reasons for not liking the bard -- which seem to be "it sounds dumb using built-in assumptions I have", and those assumptions don't have to be written in stone. I mean, I agree -- YOUR version of the bard DOES sound pretty dumb. I wouldn't play YOUR version of the bard. MY version of the bard, however, makes for a fun evening.
No offense intended, sincerely. There are classes I don't like, for reasons about as good as your reasons for not liking the bard. They're mechanically good but just don't do it for me, and I can come up with lots of reasons that all ultimately boil down to "Because of my ingrained assumptions about them."
Interesting debate, but it really boils down to any character is only as good as you can play it. If you don’t like Bards, they will suck in the game, however if you don’t like a Rouge, you aren’t going to use their abilities to their fullest either, and the same goes for every other class. I’ve had players in games where I’ve DM’d and played that really just didn’t understand their characters abilities – whatever their character was, and therefore never enjoyed playing them. They spent their time going “gee I wish I was (character type) instead – THAT character would kick ass…” Usually you give them the chance to play that other character type and they do just as poorly – because it wasn’t the class that was the limitation – it was the player.
Sure if you compare class to class and say the Bard can’t cast as well as a Magic User, - the Bard can’t use thieving abilities as well as the Rouge, The Bard can’t fight as well as a Fighter.... the Bard will always lose, but consider when the party’s Fighter goes down in combat – the Bard is there and extremely competent. The Cleric is occupied or gets taken out – the Bard can cast cure spells, The Magic User is overwhelmed, and the Bard can use his magic items and scrolls – the list goes on … The character is the “Swiss Army Knife” of the game, and one who proven to be very valuable in my game time and time again.
Regarding his “Inspire Courage” ability – all I have to do is hear about 3 seconds of the “Saint Crispin's Day speech from Henry V (http://www.rispin.co.uk/henryv.html - That’s from Shakespere aka the Bard) and I’m emotionally moved. (Check out the film by Kenneth Brannagh.) The Bard character is like the Beatles or Elvis or (fill in whatever musician you find inspiring) that somehow not only captures his audience - he moves them in ways that can’t really be explained. Watch old footage of the Beatles or Elvis live - the stuff from the early 60’s, and watch the crowd – they are going insane. We look at the audience at those shows now and say “what was wrong with them – it’s just a guy singing”. But we weren’t there, and he/they had that extra “something” that profoundly affected the crowd. So to say that inspiring a crowd in 6 seconds is impossible, even without magic – it has been done. Keep in mind, it’s only the player who doesn’t like his Bard character that would say “I sing for six seconds – there, you all have courage now – now I’ll sit and pout that I’m not as good as everyone else” The singing or inspiring takes 6 seconds to “take effect” then you keep it up as long as you can (“This effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the Bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter...”) It would be pretty inspiring to me, in the face of a terrifying creature or powerful opponent, that someone on my side has the balls to chant/sing/express how brave we are and how we will overcome! And the Bard affects all his allies. That +1 bonus to hit is a +1boost in effective level for fighting classes, and more-so for non-fighting classes. And the +1 vs. charm & fear effects is a huge effective level increase as most classes only go up by +1 Will Save every 3 levels (a few go up every 2 levels). And the plusses keep coming as the levels increase.
The Bard does have “magical” effects from performance that are not available to any other class. Take the Rouge for example - “disable device” can be learned by anyone willing to spend the skill points but only the Rouge can disable magical traps, the Bard’s perform ability is exactly the same. Your Rouge could max out his perform skill, but he’s only going to be a decent “cover band”. The real show is the bard.
The effects from Bardic Music ability are situational to be sure – the right situation has to crop up to use it, but the same applies to “disable device”– if there isn’t a device to disable, you can’t do much with that either.
The party that I adventure in as a Bard character has never had to pay for lodging, or food, and leaves every town waiting for them to come back. This makes a huge difference with role-playing. In combat, if the Bard goes down he is sorely missed. And the Cleric & Magic Users are happy knowing that he’s there so they can free up some of their spell slots for cooler spells.
Give a Bard “Combat Expertise” as a feat, a high Dex score, and Weapon Finesse with a Rapier for combat; “Harmony” as a spell (from “Magic of Faerun**” boosts your inspire courage to +2Att/Dam +4 Will save), , and you have a fantastic swashbuckler who’s hard to hit and whose buffs are really great when you need them. ( **I haven’t seen the Players Guide to Faerun to see if this spell has been changed yet)
The only beef I have with the class is really “what’s up with it being the favored class of the Gnome?”
Hey GGG, drop an e-mail at newfiesailor@hotmail.com. Got a site for ya.
Don't forget about twisting your songs. While Inspire Courage is still taking its extra 5 rounds, start an Inspire Greatness performance. Stack them up :)
That's a great idea - (however I immediately pictured a group of bards singing a song like "row your boat" in rounds - each activating a different Bardic Music ability while doing so - chuckle)
Good suggestion though -thanks -I'll use it.
What, you're going to tell me that holding up a cross and saying Hail Marys is stupid because skeletons don't have eyes and probably don't come from a monotheistic society that even had a Virgin Mary in the first place, and then use that logic to decide that turning undead is also broken? Because that's what turning undead is, right? Cross, Hail Marys? Come on, who holds up a cross for six full seconds when vampires and zombies are coming towards them? How stupid is that?
Don't even get me started on clerics. ;)
First off I do humbly apologize for the comments in regards to Taricus' NPC bard. It was not my intent to offend.
Now as to the above as I have said before (and at stupidly long length) I like bards. I don't like inspire.
Sorcerers have innate magical talents. Basically they are the equivalent of Marvel Comics' mutants - so they are allowed to get away with a lot. The four fundamental classes (Fighters, Clerics, Wizards, and Rogues) work because they each have a shtick. Rogues for instance are clever, knowledgeable and can hit people where it hurts. Barbarians, Monks, Rangers, Paladins and Bards all fill niches. Someone in game design way back when said "Hey how about a holy knight class or what about a kung-fu monk?" Someone probably tried making a Conan-esk figher guy way back when and couldn't do one effectively because fighters would be dumb not to use lots of (magic) platemail and a shield along with magical enhancements from other items. The rules supported that sort of fighter - and as a player if you wanted to be the most useful fighter you could be you went that route. So the barbarian class gets made and wala the rules rlect the character. ("Don't make me angry you wouldn't like me when I'm angry.")
Now the rules (not the flavor text) says that the Bard "Once per day per bard level, a bard can use his song or poetics to produce magical effects on those around him.... While these abilities fall under the category of bardic music and the descriptions discuss singing or playing instruments, they can all be activated by reciting poetry, chanting, singing lyrical songs, singing melodies, whistling, playing an instrument, or playing an instrument in combination with some spoken performance.... Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action." It goes on to say... "Inspire Courage (Su): A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the bard sing. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 8th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1 (+2 at 8th, +3 at 14th, and +4 at 20th). Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability."
Now - wandering monster encounter: Characters encounter a group of orcs in a dungeon (hey it COULD happen!). Let's say thirty feet away in a nice long corridor/grotto/room. First round of combat: Everyone goes into their own particular combat routine as it makes sense to them: The orcs charge; the scouting rogue gets out of way; the fighters rush to help; the wizard prepares magic missile; the bard does something considered inspiring. This could be any of the afore mentioned possibilities in either thread including singing "Here we are! Born to be kings we're the...." A similar effect allows him to inspire folks to move silently (once again using any number of bardic music options).
Now my questions are these:
1. Why would anyone complete/do more than a round's worth of inspiring (courage)? Most fights only last about six rounds. The bard could always go "Good job!" and get another five rounds.
2. Why would anyone ever carry an instrument? It's like taking more than one level of Ranger in 3.0. Bards who go on adventures should all be orators and singers and not waste skill points on Perform (musical instrument) instead they would want to take Perform (sing/orate) and use the other points elsewhere. Sure they could do the stylish thing and take up a musical instrument as well and use it at parties and such but why not use them in Tumble or Disguise? You can always sing or tell stories at parties.
3. Inspiration tends to work on large crowds of fans rather than people you hang out with. Any rock star, pro-wrestler, televangelist, or keynote speaker can inspire with words especially if you kind of already know what they are going to say or do. "Whatcha gonna do Rick Flair when Hulkamania runs wild on you?" Elvis' roadies where probably really inspired by him the early on but I'm willing to bet the ones who equaled him in someway (i.e. the same level or higher) where not nearly as inspired after being on the road with him for a while. They became familiar with each other. Also it can be pretty hard to inspire someone who has already seen it all, like most battle tested adventurers.
Now I do like bards and I can believe that a quick "Avengers Assemble!" can be inspiring when - and this is key - used sparingly.
The rules do not support a whole lot of choice for the bard when it comes to inspiration. If the bard doesn't make with the music he will hear about it from the rest of the party. Am I right? So as a bard (read support class) it is your duty to support/inspire your group to feats of courage. That is going to get old quick unless you can come up with something inventive to do new each time. In games that I've seen as DM, player or spectator bards often get played like this. At first level the character is playing the "Battle Hymn of the Republic" with all due pomp. By third level this changes into "I play my horn and pull my bow." or more simply "Inspire courage... Bow."
Now I know we are all brilliant DMs. Why else would we collect Dungeon and then spend hours decrying the loss of one page of space to Mr. Wheaton who seems to still have that aura of I-hate-Wesley-Crusher about him.* So the point is if you want to play a barbarian-type fighter before there was such a thing -i.e. lightly armored all offensive fighter who can "take it." You probably did it once got killed and laughed at by the party's "real" fighter and didn't play against type anymore. You can be any kind of bard you want to be.... but...
GGG Esq.
*I for one don't have an opinion on Wes -err- Wil. I read his stuff (The ogre PC trying to tumble past the gnome was funny), but (there's that "but" again) it mostly washes off. As for him taking up a page - I say let him. I don't buy the book for him. I buy it for the adventures. When D&D started you had to buy 22 page long modules for 6.99. For 6.99 you would think they would find a way to staple the cover on better ;). My gaming buck goes as far now as it did when I was eleven even if I get only one decent sized game out of a Dungeon. That's not bad in my opinion. I will probably never use more than one or two out of any given mag anyhow. So let him have his page. Let Kyle have Downer (Heck, he killed a D&D bard in like the third panel of the first installment didn't he? :) Put in an epic level game or a psionic adventure or even one that is all underwater (heck, put in an epic-psionic-underwater adventure) but only one per mag please.
A point cut and pasted from a previous post:
If there was a Bard-like ability like say:
SUMMON BARBERSHOP QUARTET (Sp): Once per day a bard can attempt to pull 4 pit fiends from his butt with a 75% chance of success. All pit fiends so summoned have handlebar mustaches and a +23 bonus to Perform (sing) and Perform (tap-dance) checks. This ability is the equivalent of an 10th-level (epic) spell.
Now the point is that just because a class has a useful ability (like Inspire) doesn't make it not silly or destroy suspension of disbelief. That's the arguement. Anyone with a bucket of bow feats, a bow and a quiver is useful in a fight. Heck, anyone with a movement rate and hit points is "useful" in a fight.
-GGG
Well, Bard in my group nowadays usually comes with someting like this:
1. round "I use my wand of fireballs."
2. round "I use my wand of fireballs."
3. round "I use my wand of fireballs."
...
and because, he usually rolls one of the highest initiatives (it looks like the theory of probability doesn't work :-) in case of an "orc encounter" he does most of the damage before anoone can do anything else...
OK, there are time he uses Inspire Courage in the way Singing, firing bow, spellcasting, but it really depends on the situation. There're times, he simply looks around the room, or watches "the other corridor" in case something tries to flank the group.
And in regards to barbarians, they're different than "tin can" fighters, but that would be a different thread I think.
"This could be any of the afore mentioned possibilities in either thread including singing "Here we are! Born to be kings we're the....""
You know, I know it's dumb, but I still get goosebumps reading that. I know. I'm shallow and easily manipulated. I can deal with that.
"A similar effect allows him to inspire folks to move silently (once again using any number of bardic music options)."
I thought, but am not sure, that there was a line in there about the GM being free to limit this use if it doesn't make any sense. For example, on a Move Silently check, or a Bluff check if you're not quietly playing the background music at a social function. I recall there being an OotS joke about that, in fact. But that's a nitpick.
"1. Why would anyone complete/do more than a round's worth of inspiring (courage)? Most fights only last about six rounds. The bard could always go "Good job!" and get another five rounds. "
Definitely. While other classes can benefit from a good knowledge of the game, the bard is a class that pretty much requires that knowledge. There's a time to keep singing for several rounds, and there's a time to stop singing and use your voice-activated magical items, spells, and so forth.
The bardic music bit is nice because it lets you decide the length. If you want to stop and start piling on the other bardsongs (hitting someone with greatness and heroics at the same time), you can do that. If you need to use a spell -- or just call out something only you know -- then you can do that, too. But if it's a legion of ogres led by iron golems and pit fiends, and you think the fight is gonna go longer than six rounds, then you can keep that song up all day if you want to.
"2. Why would anyone ever carry an instrument? It's like taking more than one level of Ranger in 3.0."
Forced to agree in large part here. I really like the fact that some magical instruments require ranks to play, so the bard can't just pick up the Lyre of Blasting if he's been inspiring everyone with epic poetry. Beyond the magical instrument notion, and, uh, roleplaying the desire to play an instrument, I got nothin'. I usually give my bard a few ranks in an instrument and a lot of ranks in something purely spoken -- this lets me play an instrument for flavor text or if I ever find a magic version of that one, but I can primarily get away with shouting inspirationally in fights.
Only other thing to note: a mastercraft instrument can give you a bonus on your Perform check, which could at some point be important (although not for most bardic abilities, which require that you have ranks, not that you make a perform check).
"3. Inspiration tends to work on large crowds of fans rather than people you hang out with."
I don't see this as broken. If I want to inspire courage in a bunch of commoners who are about to be attacked by orcs, those guys are my allies -- and thus, I can give them the benefit as long as I keep playing.
Actually, if I were an absurdly powerful bard (20th level) and were the only hero in a town that was about to be attacked by Orcs, then Inspire Courage would be pretty fun. I'd be giving every commoner who could hear me a +4 to hit. For a commoner, that +4 bonus is a heck of a lot more inspiring, relatively speaking, than it would be for the rest of my 20th-level party. For them +4 is relatively paltry as bonuses go. It doesn't hurt, but it's nothing outlandish. For the commoner, that +4 is huuuuuge. So I still buy this -- it doesn't likely come up in game very often, but it can work.
"The rules do not support a whole lot of choice for the bard when it comes to inspiration. If the bard doesn't make with the music he will hear about it from the rest of the party. Am I right?"
I figure it depends. Sometimes yeah. Other times, I hear the party look over and say, "Just shut up. We'll deal with this," which is their polite way of telling the party bard to save his valuable uses for more critical battles.
"So as a bard (read support class) it is your duty to support/inspire your group to feats of courage. That is going to get old quick unless you can come up with something inventive to do new each time."
My players vary their flavor text. Sometimes it's "I feint high, then unload with a low slash, stab, and spinning hack to his ankles!", and sometimes it's "Full-round attack." Why should the bard be any different? Back in the big campaign, the party bard would sometimes come up with a good title, "I play the song of King Haloran, who fought against evil undead with a sword of blinding light -- and then I draw my flaming sword as a move-equivalent action." And other times, yeah, he'd just say, "Inspire courage." It depends on how far the camera is zoomed in at that point, and how much people want or need flavor text right then.