Opinions on Alchemical Familiar and the need for more actions

I do not like familiars. I don't actually like pets/minions/animal companions, in PF2 or even in PF1.

Which is why Alchemical Familiar sticks out so much to me.

I see how Alchemical Familiar, when configured for Manual Dexterity/Lab Assistant, helps overcome some action economy issues as well as possibly elixir delivery, but I continually find myself wishing an alternative had been chosen or at least made available.

What are your opinions regarding your little alchemical buddy? Given that the Mutagenist has been what has caught my eye the most, I've resigned myself to having one but I mostly intend to have him in a little satchel slung on my back, injecting me with what I tell him to.

What has your mini-you been up to and do you approve?

If you are going to make an alchemist there is only 2 optimal options at first level, quick bomber or alchemical familiar. Most of the alchemist who take bomber reaserch field are going to pick the quick bomber, the other fields the familiar. There is almost no choice. That is very disapointing.

I have just created a mutagenist as well and eve if I didn´t want an Alchemical familiar I have picked it, because is better than the alternatives, and the mutagenist needs all the help he can find to build something usefull.

The uses of the familiar are the same as yours, being in the backpack, taking some orders from time to time to pick an elixir/mutagen and give it to me or to an ally. I don´t even use Lab assistant, first levels is more important to have 6 reagenst insted of 5.

I think the familiar is too important for the action economy right now, because 2 actions to drink a mutagen is too much of a burden (it´s like using a buff spell but with drawbacks).

I'm willing to overlook the action count necessary to imbibe your various concoctions, and I even understand why they tied some things like 'Combine Elixirs' to Quick Alchemy, because philosophically it appears they wanted to reduce the amount of pre-buffing that went on in PF1 going into PF2.

I *dislike*, both thematically and mechanically, requiring the familiar in order to achieve that goal. It would have been more pleasing if instead, there was a feat like:

Fast Alchemy
Feat 1
Traits: Alchemist, Manipulate, Open
Actions: 1
You use Quick Alchemy to create an infused alchemical item and immediately use it.

This would allow you to, once per turn, both create *and* imbibe an alchemical item. It still retains the Manipulate trait and with the Open trait, you cannot spam it. The action economy would remain the same as when using a familiar.

I guess I wonder why the familiar got foisted off on the alchemist and why it was chosen to address the action economy issue. And what plans they might have had for making use of the Alchemical Familiar in future content releases. Familiars in general seem underwhelming and, in many cases, nearly detrimental (see the discussion about Witch familiars and the fact they are addressing that).

I'm not sure the developers saw it coming. It looks more like an unexpected optimization of the Alchemical Familiar addressing one of the biggest issue the Alchemist has.

I also don't like it much, but in my opinion, it's a necessary feat for all alchemists, even bombers, if they want to be able to heal their comrades.

I don't really think the problem is the familiar so much that, as Aswaarg pointed out, Alchemist has a pretty weak selection of level 1 feats. If you aren't a bomber your only other choice is just making it easier to identify items.

It looks more like an unexpected optimization

I'm not sure what's unexpected about using an ability the developers wrote exactly as described...

As an aside, I know this is an anti-familiar thread but it feels kind of bad that Alchemists are just sort of arbitrarily excluded from enhanced familiar.

Regardless of how you're using it now, in my experience the Alchemical Familiar was one of the more popular alchemist discoveries in PF1. I suspect that was included here so that anyone looking to recreate their PF1 alchemist saw something similar.

I agree with the general sentiment that the alchemist 1st level feats are mostly "eh."

I do not like familiars. I don't actually like pets/minions/animal companions, in PF2 or even in PF1.

Which is why Alchemical Familiar sticks out so much to me.

I see how Alchemical Familiar, when configured for Manual Dexterity/Lab Assistant, helps overcome some action economy issues as well as possibly elixir delivery, but I continually find myself wishing an alternative had been chosen or at least made available.

What are your opinions regarding your little alchemical buddy? Given that the Mutagenist has been what has caught my eye the most, I've resigned myself to having one but I mostly intend to have him in a little satchel slung on my back, injecting me with what I tell him to.

What has your mini-you been up to and do you approve?

At low level remember that with the familiar you can have it cough out an extra infused reagent for you which = 2 more potions during prep. That alone is pretty darn worth while having as low levels is where alchemists feel the most pain in lack of tools. I really do wish that alchemists had the option for improved familiar and am kinda baffled why they were not given that option.

Quintessentially Me wrote:

I do not like familiars. I don't actually like pets/minions/animal companions, in PF2 or even in PF1.

Which is why Alchemical Familiar sticks out so much to me.

I see how Alchemical Familiar, when configured for Manual Dexterity/Lab Assistant, helps overcome some action economy issues as well as possibly elixir delivery, but I continually find myself wishing an alternative had been chosen or at least made available.

What are your opinions regarding your little alchemical buddy? Given that the Mutagenist has been what has caught my eye the most, I've resigned myself to having one but I mostly intend to have him in a little satchel slung on my back, injecting me with what I tell him to.

What has your mini-you been up to and do you approve?

At low level remember that with the familiar you can have it cough out an extra infused reagent for you which = 2 more potions during prep. That alone is pretty darn worth while having as low levels is where alchemists feel the most pain in lack of tools. I really do wish that alchemists had the option for improved familiar and am kinda baffled why they were not given that option.

I agree that that is useful and a worthy consideration for why to take that feat.

What I dislike is that, if as a Mutagenist, I wish to queue up my elixirs for melee combat, I need to rely on having a familiar, with all that that encompasses mechanically as well as thematically, in order to have the ability to most efficiently consume my elixirs so that I can enter combat.

I feel like you're kind of overselling the importance of the familiar here.

As a mutagenist, if your primary concern is just drinking your mutagen for battle, the familiar saves you one action per combat. Depending on your level and the circumstances sometimes not even that.

That's... nice, but not really the lynchpin of your build in the way you're implying it is.

It's mandatory, but more in the sense that none of the other feats provide any real benefit to a mutagenist than in the sense that without it your build doesn't function.

I feel like you're kind of overselling the importance of the familiar here.

As a mutagenist, if your primary concern is just drinking your mutagen for battle, the familiar saves you one action per combat. Depending on your level and the circumstances sometimes not even that.

That's... nice, but not really the lynchpin of your build in the way you're implying it is.

It's mandatory, but more in the sense that none of the other feats provide any real benefit to a mutagenist than in the sense that without it your build doesn't function.

I guess I'm just ranting about the familiar then. :)

I started to respond, had something ready to go, and realized you're right.

I still wish I could get a Fast Alchemy equivalent, maybe make it not operable on the same round with Lab Assistant or something. Or just make it something you can't have if you pick Alchemical Familiar.

Have I mentioned I don't like familiars?

EDIT: But since I'm stuck with the little blighter seeing as there's nothing better... what else can I do with the little blighter?

Squiggit wrote:

I feel like you're kind of overselling the importance of the familiar here.

As a mutagenist, if your primary concern is just drinking your mutagen for battle, the familiar saves you one action per combat. Depending on your level and the circumstances sometimes not even that.

That's... nice, but not really the lynchpin of your build in the way you're implying it is.

It's mandatory, but more in the sense that none of the other feats provide any real benefit to a mutagenist than in the sense that without it your build doesn't function.

I guess I'm just ranting about the familiar then. :)

I started to respond, had something ready to go, and realized you're right.

I still wish I could get a Fast Alchemy equivalent, maybe make it not operable on the same round with Lab Assistant or something. Or just make it something you can't have if you pick Alchemical Familiar.

Have I mentioned I don't like familiars?

EDIT: But since I'm stuck with the little blighter seeing as there's nothing better... what else can I do with the little blighter?

I do have an option for you depending on the context of your game.

You can use the animated object ritual to make a minion out of any object. As a crafter, you could purpose build an object to contain your mutagens and inject them like the familiar would. That does require expert Arcana and a bit of GM license, but it is a way to mechanically replace the function of the familiar.

I feel like Quick Bomber is the correct feat for most alchemists to take, because even if bombs aren't your specialty they are too useful to not bust out sometimes. And while I might drink a mutagen every combat I will only do it once per combat. In a fight where I need bombs I will be tossing bombs over and over again.

I feel like Quick Bomber is the correct feat for most alchemists to take, because even if bombs aren't your specialty they are too useful to not bust out sometimes. And while I might drink a mutagen every combat I will only do it once per combat. In a fight where I need bombs I will be tossing bombs over and over again.

How many bombs are you going to have as a mutagenist or chirurgeon as first level?

Considering you have 5 reagents, you are going to want at least 1 free as a emergency wildcard. 2 should be spent in your main thing (healing or mutagen). If you want any tool (smokestick) you are going to spend 1 more, so you only have 1 avaliable for the bombs. You can play around this numbers, but more than 4 bombs (2 reactives x2) should be rare for a non bomber alchemist.

Maybe in later levels quick bomb is usefull, but at the start (when first lvl feats matter more), the familiar is way better than quick bomber for non bombers.

As mentioned before, I would love to have more feats for first level. That will allow to differentiate the alchemists between them. For example a "Quick injection" feat that allows to draw an Use an elixir (to you or to an ally) as 1 action, it´s a boring and non imaginative feat, but would allow the players who don´t want a familiar to pick that. The familiar would be the more risk more reward choice.

Anyway, I guess with time and more feats, this problem is going to get better.

How many bombs are you going to have as a mutagenist or chirurgeon as first level?

Extending it further, even as a bomber is quick bomber worth it over alchemical familiar at level 1.

At level 1 and in actual play vs whiteroom dps I would wager the alchemist with an extra reagent would come out ahead especially when elixir use is taken into consideration.

I feel like Quick Bomber is the correct feat for most alchemists to take

For anything but a bomber, I'd take Familiar. Most of the class feats aren't exciting to me so it meshes well with taking Multiclass wizard: Extra Reagents and Cantrip Connection fit nicely and an ancient elf can start off at 1st with the multiclass feat though taking it at 2nd normally isn't bad either as 2nd level feats aren't too exciting.

As mentioned before, I would love to have more feats for first level.

It needs more feat of every level: After 1st, you only have 3/level until you get 4/level at 10-12th and 16-20th. You aren't rolling around in feats at any level: the problem is that it gets treated like a caster for number of feats even though it's not one.

You don't need a Familiar at all for Mutagens. Anytime my character has his weapon drawn, he has his mutagen in his left hand. So, no need for more than one action to imbibe it.
Familiars' best ability is one action Elixir of Life. That is useful whatever the type of Alchemist you play if you plan on healing yourself/your comrades. If your DM allows it, you can have your familiar on your back, healing you for one action during the course of the combat (excellent third action for a Mutagenist/Bomber). Or your familiar can have 2 elixirs in his hands, so he can move and give an elixir in one action for an efficient 1-action Elixir of Life on close allies.
Quick Bomber and Alchemical Familiars are both supreme feats. They are reducing the actions needed for both attacking and healing, both of your main combat abilities. I don't see many Alchemist builds that shouldn't take both of them.

I feel like you're kind of overselling the importance of the familiar here.

As a mutagenist, if your primary concern is just drinking your mutagen for battle, the familiar saves you one action per combat. Depending on your level and the circumstances sometimes not even that.

That's... nice, but not really the lynchpin of your build in the way you're implying it is.

It's mandatory, but more in the sense that none of the other feats provide any real benefit to a mutagenist than in the sense that without it your build doesn't function.

Honestly early on their big use for a mutagenist is probably that the extra two potions per day means you can afford to drop your int one notch below what you would otherwise run which gives you points to put towards your other stats. Given Mutagenists have issues with being a bit MAD that is a pretty nice boost. Lets you have more damage or durability without sacrificing your game day endurance to keep using your stuff for every fight.

I really don't like Familiars in general either. They're not very useful for my play styleand I don't like keeping track.
They're not so good at scouting and ssuch in this one, so I'm really only ever into one for reasons of the extra reagent

I do really wish they'd gottan some sort of poison use line. That way even at lower level and without multiclassing you could pull of poisoner style.

I really don't like Familiars in general either. They're not very useful for my play styleand I don't like keeping track.

They're not so good at scouting and ssuch in this one, so I'm really only ever into one for reasons of the extra reagent

I do really wish they'd gottan some sort of poison use line. That way even at lower level and without multiclassing you could pull of poisoner style.

I fully expect in the not very distant future we see a poisoner specialty for alchemists appear. It is the pretty obvious missing one given there is a spec for each major type of alchemy stuff but poisons at the moment. Probably in or before the advanced players guide. I think most of the early issues with alchemists are things that probably get a lot better over time as more rules/options get introduced.