I had the idea to create a swashbukler that arries and ripostes with unarmed strikes, preferably one that is pathfinder legal (if it cant be done, i am okay if its not as well) The only thing i saw requires me to make my hands piercing or slashing such as with boar style. The i assume i would need an agile mighty fist amulet. So the best way to start this out imo would be swshbuckler first, and grab weapon focus unarmed strike, then go monk to get the flurry, and go swashbuckler the rest of the way. Thoughts concerns tips or problems with this idea?
Until you take that monk level, you won't be able to do any lethal damage with your unarmed strikes, so you might want to think about taking it first.
Swashbucklers have the benefits of Weapon Finesse with (light or one-handed) Piercing melee weapons, so if you go the Boar Style route you'd have to wait until lv 6 before you can benefit from Weapon Finesse.
Weapon Versatility is an option if you want to fight with Unarmed Strikes earlier than that, but I'd rather just use a Cestus until lv 6.
Speaking of the Cestus, you could just equip one of those and deal piercing damage with your Unarmed Strikes.
While wearing a cestus, you are considered armed and your unarmed attacks deal normal damage. If you are proficient with a cestus, your unarmed strikes may deal bludgeoning or piercing damage. Monks are proficient with the cestus.
As for archetypes, you want to take Scaled Fist (UnMonk) so that your bonus AC is based on your charisma, to gain some synergy with Panache.
I'd also recommend the Whirling Dervish archetype for Swashbuckler, as you gain dex-to-damage compatible with flurry at level 4.At 4th level, a whirling dervish can use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on melee damage rolls when using her swashbuckler finesse. She counts as having the Dervish Dance feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.
I see that Hamatulatsu is not PFS-legal, and will guess that that fact is the likely instigation for this thread. So....
~ ~ ~
STR- 5 or 10
DEX+ 17 (halfling, 15,14,14,14,12,7 20pt array)
CON: 14
INT: 12 or 7 (or 10 int / 6 str, or 8 int / 8 str)
WIS: 12
CHA+ 16 (...or 14 with 15,14,12,12,12,12 array)
Traits: Dangerously Curious
01 Swashbuckler1 [Mouser], Cautious Fighter
02 uMonk1 [Scaled Fist], [Dodge]
03 Fighter1 [Unarmed][Boar Ferocity], Boar Style
04 (rest Swashbuckler), DEX>18
First 4000gp of course goes into an Agile AoMF. Spend two PFS prestige points on a wand of mage armor. Your small-size AC is 18 in your skivvies at 2nd so long as you're not surprised, 22 with the spell popped off, and up to 26 while fighting defensively -- with every bit of it good versus touch-attacks.
Note that wearing a buckler will gak your monk AC bonus (from Cha in this case) and forfeit flurry.
Traits: Dangerously Curious
01 Swashbuckler1 [Mouser], Cautious Fighter
02 uMonk1 [Scaled Fist], [Dodge]
03 Fighter1 [Unarmed][Boar Ferocity], Boar Style
04 (rest Swashbuckler), DEX>18
A common mistake, but Boar Ferocity is not a style feat, and cannot be chosen as a bonus feat at level 3.
Only the first feat in a style is a 'Style Feat', which means that you cannot dip one level into Unarmed Fighter MoMS Monk and pick up the second or third feat in the feat chain.
Snake Style makes it piercing, so it works for that combo.
...ok, that's the <forehead-smack> way of doing it.
(Thanks.)
Or shark style for that piercing unarmed damage - since you have a parry as a swashbuckler already and it tends to take your immediate action, +1d6 bleed damage might be better than another. Like snake style, shark style is available from 3rd level.
You don't need to go dex-based BTW. Strength based is perfectly viable for the build as given. If your (unchained) monk dip takes the scaled fist archetype then you can make Cha do double duty for you too.
Wait, why mouser? That removes parry and riposte which is the whole thing i am trying to do, with my hands? And i totally forgot about the cestus (even tho my normal swashbuckler has one *facepalm*. So then that would function, i should only need the level of monk for the flurry etc, then go swash the rest of the way with a cestus, right? I do realize panache would be much more valuable since my crit range will be garbage, but it just means i have to manage it more carefully
My current thought atm is this, stats as a halfling 10,18,13,10,10,16
(will start with a cestus)
level 1 feat unmnk(sf) feat combat reflexes, weapon finesse
level 2 swashbuckler
Level 3 retrain weapon finesse into weapon focus unarmed strike, shark style
Level 5 risky striker (for DR/hardness enemies)
save up for agile AOMF, then add answering to it.
Might also try to get a shield ring, tho AC is not going to be something i am very good at (especially once i pick up risky striker) At level 6, once i get to add to my damage with the precision, i may level dip once into fighter to grab another feat, (weapon spec maybe?)
Thoughts?
i was thinking to gain the EXTRA feat you get at level 1. you think its that bad an idea? even if i were to get say piranha strike or something? most of the feats i have chosen are going to be needed and not really retrainable...
If you want another bonus feat that badly consider a second level in monk. Monks get bonus feats at levels 1 & 2, and the second level comes with evasion.
Wait, why mouser? That removes parry and riposte which is the whole thing i am trying to do, with my hands?
A mouser halfling can completely boffo an opponent whose square he's in (their -4 to attack anyone else is just the start of their problems, given that the halfling and any of his allies adjacent to the enemy will be considered flanking). And with a potential AC of 26 while fighting defensively, OP&R is an easy forfeit because you're quite hard to hit. (And if your opponent moves away, you get an AoO, which is the same reward you'd get from OP&R without the requirement of beating an opposed check.)
In exchange for forfeiting OP&R , the Mouser is essentially pseudo-buffing the party versus his opponent while simultaneously nerfing the crap out of them.
Frankly I consider OP&R to be wildly overrated, and it boils down to misperceptions of probability. --You have to declare an OP&R attempt before you know your attacker's roll. So, 5% of the time you immediately waste a point of panache because he rolls a 1 and auto-whiffs. Of the remaining d20 possibilities, a considerable fraction wouldn't breach your AC anyway (meaning that you've also wasted the point of panache). This leaves only those results that would have gotten through to you that matter. So you roll an opposed attack, and a substantial portion of the time you're not going to beat their roll anyway. --Against the most deadly attacks, inbound crits, OP&R is almost worthless unless the opponent is so lame that it's probable that he won't he hurting you much anyway (e.g,, a low-level mook doing d6+3..doubled!). (During this analysis, I'm not factoring whether or not it's subjectively "worth it" just for the occasional AoOs, because it is always my assumption that the PCs will eventually defeat the monsters, assuming that a TPK isn't looming.)
To start with, your charisma bonus isn't going to that high as a Swashbuckler unless you're a paladin or bard multiclass and all-in minmaxing the attribute. Let's suppose your charisma is 18 (16 + headband). Let's suppose that you never use your last point of panache (because that would shut off half your deeds). This is giving you at most three uses, leaving none available for any other deed or Swordmaster's Flair activation (and you're totally going to have one of those). So you're often down to one point real fast and desperately relying on fate to dole them out back to you.
--Let's say that this particular halfling had instead spent a point on Dodging Panache -- his Fighting defensively and Cautiously AC would be 29 with a Mage Armor wand charge running, and that happens as early as 2nd level.
Weapon Versatility should allow you to use fists as piercing and its PFS legal.
If you go with mostly monk instead of swash you should consider Water Dancer because it replaces wis for cha like scaled fist and it adds cha per level to dodge as well. It slows down unarmed damage but you would've been stuck at first level damage anyways.
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Benefit(s): When wielding a weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you can shift your grip as a swift action so that your weapon deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage....
Do unarmed strikes (or natural attacks, for that matter) count as "wielded weapons" by either RAW or RAI? The "shift your grip" bit seems to put the kibosh on the notion.
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Do unarmed strikes (or natural attacks, for that matter) count as "wielded weapons" by either RAW or RAI? The "shift your grip" bit seems to put the kibosh on the notion.
I've always wanted to know as well as this seems poorly written. Do bows benefit as well? Should they? RAW bows work while unarmed and natural weapons are more ambiguous, expect table variation.
I'm very curious to know in exactly what way I would hold or swing a round-ended club to receive slashing or piercing damage with it. I'm equally curious as to what part of my longsword I would be hitting my opponent with to receive piercing damage that I'd never thought to hit them with before taking the feat. "The *tip* of the sword? Gosh, I never knew... I'm glad you taught me this master technique, Sensei. These years under tutelage have really paid off!"
Stupid feat. --PFS has banned much less obtusely-written rubbish than this.
.Frankly I consider OP&R to be wildly overrated, and it boils down to misperceptions of probability..)
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The problem with your dismissal of the ability is that it only takes into account the defensive aspects. Even if your opponent misses, you can still successfully parry, and then repose. Even if they need a 20 to hit you your panache is never wasted because you get another attack.
You might take some wilding feats for the unarmed damage instead of Monk levels. More precise strike damage. Though you need shadow strike and structural strike.
For how many times? ...I addressed that in the very post you're quoting:.Frankly I consider OP&R to be wildly overrated, and it boils down to misperceptions of probability..).The problem with your dismissal of the ability is that it only takes into account the defensive aspects. Even if your opponent misses, you can still successfully parry, and then repose. Even if they need a 20 to hit you your panache is never wasted because you get another attack.
...your charisma bonus isn't going to that high as a Swashbuckler unless you're a paladin or bard multiclass and all-in minmaxing the attribute. Let's suppose your charisma is 18 (16 + headband). Let's suppose that you never use your last point of panache (because that would shut off half your deeds). This is giving you at most three uses, leaving none available for any other deed or Swordmaster's Flair activation (and you're totally going to have one of those). So you're often down to one point real fast and desperately relying on fate to dole them out back to you."
It's overrated. Wildly. You need points for everything else, *too*. You just don't have that much to spare, even with the Signature Deed feat (which OP&R is ineligible for). You're better off concentrating on developing an AoO engine (e.g., utilizing long arm and blue-scarf from Swordmaster's Flair), because that'll potentially grant you, in a single round versus a "Zerg rush", as many additional attacks as a couple day's worth of OP&R (assuming your dex is through the ceiling, as is ought to be in a swashbuckler).
You might take some wilding feats for the unarmed damage instead of Monk levels. More precise strike damage. Though you need shadow strike and structural strike.
Have you ever done the math on them? Wilding Strike is two feats for +1.5 average damage, and the Improved and Greater versions are each a feat for +1. For comparison, +1 to damage rolls is what you can get from a trait, i.e. half a feat.
Traits: Dangerously Curious
01 Swashbuckler1 [Mouser], Cautious Fighter
02 uMonk1 [Scaled Fist], [Dodge]
03 Fighter1 [Unarmed][Boar Ferocity], Boar Style
04 (rest Swashbuckler), DEX>18A common mistake, but Boar Ferocity is not a style feat, and cannot be chosen as a bonus feat at level 3.
Only the first feat in a style is a 'Style Feat', which means that you cannot dip one level into Unarmed Fighter MoMS Monk and pick up the second or third feat in the feat chain.
An interpretation that gets really awkward when applied to Startoss Style
Benefit(s): Choose one weapon from the thrown fighter weapon group. While using this style and the chosen weapon, you gain a bonus on damage rolls made with the weapon equal to 2 + 2 per style feat you possess that lists Startoss Style as a prerequisite (maximum +6 damage).
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An interpretation that gets really awkward when applied to Startoss Style
Benefit(s): Choose one weapon from the thrown fighter weapon group. While using this style and the chosen weapon, you gain a bonus on damage rolls made with the weapon equal to 2 + 2 per style feat you possess that lists Startoss Style as a prerequisite (maximum +6 damage).
Sometimes people make mistakes. The author of Startoss style obviously believed that the other two feats were style feats, but they aren't.
Both ArchivesofNethys and PFSRD only applies the 'Style' tag on the first feats in the series. The other feats in the feat trees are combat feats.
PFSRD:
Archon Style, Archon Diversion
ArchivesofNethys:
Charging Stag Style, Stag Horns
And so does the PRD. Search for the "Style" tag in the Ultimate Combat PRD (CTRL+F, usually).
Officially, Style Feats are feats that have the (Style) tag, like how combat feats have the (Combat) tag. In Ultimate Combat, and most or all later sources, only the first feat is actually tagged (Style). Reading the text on Style Feats in Ultimate Combat makes that quite clear; the other feats in a chain are referred to as "feats associated with style feats", and the text repeatedly refers to style feats specifically as feats that enter a style.
That technically would break Startoss, but it's obvious what the intent of the feat is. Paizo's later books aren't exactly known for editing and consistency.
As for Unarmed Fighter, it's an Ultimate Combat Archetype, so there's little reason to believe that the (Style) tag isn't a requirement for selecting a feat as a Style Feat - again, just as you need (Combat) to select something as a combat feat. If that wasn't how it's supposed to work, there would be zero point to the (Style) tag.
Speaking of Style Feats, is there any way to get one sans prerequisites without dipping Fighter (Unarmed), or chained-monk (Master of Many Styles)?
Vestige bloodline as a bloodrager, or an eldritch scion magus or something.
The tactical adaptation spell doesn't bypass prereqs but it does use magus level as BAB for prereqs.
It's overrated. Wildly. You need points for everything else, *too*. You just don't have that much to spare, even with the Signature Deed feat (which OP&R is ineligible for). You're better off concentrating on developing an AoO engine (e.g., utilizing long arm and blue-scarf from Swordmaster's Flair), because that'll potentially grant you, in a single round versus a "Zerg rush", as many additional attacks as a couple day's worth of OP&R (assuming your dex is through the ceiling, as is ought to be in a swashbuckler).
Except it's not Ki. Panache replenishes, most of the time in the same round you use it. You parry, get an attack, then take your regular attacks, the mob dies, and you get your panache back, or you critically hit, and with extra attacks, you'll critically hit more.
And what else are you using Panache for?
Derring-Do? Please I'd slap anyone who wasted it on that, outside of extreme corner cases (you know you missed it by 1 or 2)
Dodging Panache is one of the most ridiculous abilities. Unless you happen to run across a monster that happens to have a clear charge lane and has pounce and decides to use it on you, you'll never use Dodging Panache.
Targeted Strike is situationally very useful, but it most cases, it's easier to kill the mob than knock it prone or disarm it, so rare use here.
So that leaves you with doubling your Precise Strike damage, and 19th level abilities, and by 19th level you're pretty set on amount of Panche.
And none of that precludes the use of long arm and swordsman's flair.
So no it's not overrated at all. It's rated highly because it's HIGHLY effective.