No half-elf dragon kin of gnomish decent!

I got into it with a peer today at my flgs. The argument pertained to half-elves and half-orcs. My argument is that i don't like the biology behind it or the point. IMO if you can have half-elves and what not, then you can have halfing orcs.....or gnomish goat folk, or whatever! That, to me, is silly. I dont think the two different species should be able to conceive half breeds, ESPECIALLY elves.

In my world there are simply no half elves. The half orc race is just a domestic orc with all the same stats as half orc. The elven races, being magical creatures, have become sterile from so much mana exposure. Thousands of years past the race was facing extinction. They created a way to conceive by magical means that im not going to get into. Long story short, there are no half breeds in my game, period.

What i was wondering is what all of your opinions on the matter are.

Don't question it? I hardly ever hear of cross-racial breeding around here.

I got rid of half-orcs in my setting and use their stats for just Orcs (normal Orc stats are for "feral orcs" who make up the thugs of the tribes, while PC Orc stats tend to be the smarter members, but genetically they're the same species), but I keep half-elves. Elves in my setting are former fey (Drow are what they used to be, but they're extremely rare now, and are far far more than just "purple/black-skinned elves"), and still have their fey ability to cross-breed with just about anything. Humans just do so more often than the other races, but half-elven other things can and do exist.

Gnomes are a little more limited, between their size and their former fey status - Elves were their own Court, on par with the Summer and Winter Courts, prior to their exile and their nature was therefore more powerful; Gnomes were simply a species amidst both remaining Courts, and not all of them have crossed over to mortality as their departure to the Prime was a flight of escape rather than a mass exile. So there will be half-Gnomes potentially as well but not as many things are viable breeding partners for them. Mostly just halflings, kobolds, and other smaller species.

I did however remove half-elves from the reincarnate chart.

Half-races are steril. ;-)

I once went the other way in creating a campaign setting -- it had no "pure" races. Player characters would roll four times on a table to determine the races of their grandparents, with some possibly quite bizarre combinations resulting. Of course, starting and maximum ages for elves and the like had to be greatly reduced since everyone could be assumed to have a significant amount of ancestry from one or more shorter lived races. Some of the more bizarre characters from Piers Anthony's Xanth series would have been right at home in this setting.

But there is no problem with making the rules of genetics campaign or even world dependent. In Michael Moorcock's novels, I think he variously had an elf-like race mating with humans result in no offspring, sterile offspring, or fertile offspring depending on factors that were never fully explained. The rules for any given world were generally well known in worlds where both races were common, but that is as far as the consistency went.

Personally, I would go with whatever makes things most interesting -- and potentially any set of genetic "rules" can have interesting results.

I am for crossing all that can be crossed, and have fun! ^-^

crossbreeds are fine as long as the player doesn't take them too far. a half dwarf/orc is fine and makes sense. but some things give me an embarassed look, such as a Chaotic Good half demon halfling aasimaar raised by death slaads in mechanus.

If you stick with the basic "Most half breeds are half human" you can posit that is more something in the human genetics that makes it possible. I.E. the fantasy human genome is malleable enough to allow for the easy inclusion foreign genetic material into it's structure thus allowing for the various half breeds.

I treat the whole "Half" thing like it works in the real world. Some things can breed and others can't. Horses and donkeys can breed (mules) horses and whales can't. Simple. Dogs and Wolves can breed, dogs and eagles can't. Simple.

So I allow the two half breeds found in the rules. Orcs and humans can breed. Simple. Elves and Humans can breed. Simple. Other races can't cross breed. simple.

You may not like the biology behind it but it's actually sound. In real life we call these species "Ring Species". Essentially there exist one or more "middle" species which can interbreed with the species on either side of them. The edge species cannot interbreed with each other as they are too genetically different.
Wikipedia may do a better job explaining it than I do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species

themoreyouknow.png

In my own games, I just go with the default. I do have the occasional rare non-standard mixing. I think I had a half-human/half-lizardfolk in one game as an NPC. I do tend to keep the humans as the 'ring species' as talked about above, basically they are cross-fertile with other species. Most fantasy (including RL mythology) tends to keep that idea. Just look at Greek and Roman mythology (centaurs, minotaurs, lamia, etc). Same with Eastern lore (spirits tend to breed with humans, not other types of spirits).

Now that I have the ARG, I think I might work up some half-races for the other cores and commons (Half-Dwarves, Half-Gnomes, Half-Halflings (No quarterling jokes), Half-Gnolls, Half-Lizards, etc).

I don't mind unusual races defined by their heritage, but I don't care for half-elves, half-orcs, half-dragons, half-oatmeal, and half-biscuits. I prefer to handle unusual genetics individually and my decisions vary based on the campaign setting. A unique race per every variant heritage is a massive waste of space.

If the characters have unusual ancestry, they should choose which genes were dominant and take a trait to reflect their other heritage.
How I handle it:
What was the character's mother?
Just an ordinary human.
Okay, you're a hu--
Wait, my father was an elf!!!
Okay, you're a shorter-than-average human with elven heritage; you have these options in exchange for the bonus feat or skilled trait.
Wait!! I want pointed ears.
Your ears are indeed pointed, but they do not jut out like an elf's nor are they very long.
Yay!

I try not to restrict a player's options regarding their heritage, but some things never make it to the table. For example, dragons in my games are savage, bestial things with little-to-no interest in other races except as slaves, minions, or snacks. As for half-orcs, I avoid orcs unless they're written into a module that I'm running as-is.

Tieflings, aasimar, and dhampir are notable expections due to the unusual nature of outsiders and the fact that I simply like the idea of undead-but-not-undead characters.

My simple explanation for Half-Elves and Half-Orcs, is that Elves, Orcs and Humans all descend from a common primate ancestor, and are close enough genetically that they can interbreed. Dwarves, Halflings and Gnomes descend from another line, and therefore can't interbreed with the "Tall" races. And they're close enough genetically to one another that they don't actually produce half-breeds, but instead the child just takes after either parent.

Half-Dragons, Half-Celestials and Half-Fiends can be justified with "They're super-powerful magical beings with DNA brimming with Arcane Energy. They laugh at the limits of biology."

If you stick with the basic "Most half breeds are half human" you can posit that is more something in the human genetics that makes it possible. I.E. the fantasy human genome is malleable enough to allow for the easy inclusion foreign genetic material into it's structure thus allowing for the various half breeds.

I'd rather see an Elven Aasimar (Azata) or a Dwarf Tiefling (Devil) by now instead of always seeing Humans everywhere.

Thankfully it's been established that such beings do exist in Golarion.

If that is your game world, that is your game world.

My opinion is that I don't really care enough about genetics to get pissed off at half elves and half orcs. It's low on my list of things to complain about in a setting because it's a fantasy game. I'm not trying to make it sciencey, I'm trying to make it fun. To be honest, humans bore me and I prefer half orcs and other races.

I'd rather see an Elven Aasimar (Azata) or a Dwarf Tiefling (Devil) by now instead of always seeing Humans everywhere.

Same goes for the elemental-blooded races, whom I'm still used to just calling X Genasi.

Thankfully it's been established that such beings do exist in Golarion.

Blood of Fiends and Blood of Angels both have a sidebox on the topic of Non-Human Aasimars and Tieflings. The short of it is, they exist, but are mechanically indistinguishable from regular Aasimar and Tieflings. Although you can easily use the "Variant Aasimar/Tiefling Abilities" tables from both books to customize your hybrids, along with the variant heritages. So you can have an Azata-Blooded Elf, or a Devil-Spawn Dwarf both right out of the box, as it were.

In my setting I also dropped Half-Orcs in favor of just Orcs as a playable race. I changed their ability score modifier to +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int but otherwise use the same stats as for Half-Orcs. Half-elves still exist in my world but are sterile. Like when a horse and a donkey breed to create a mule.

Also the pretty clean races against the savage ugly brutes is just way too disgustingly Eurocentric in my opinion. Plus everything interbreeding just doesn't make sense to me. I like different races to actually be different species my world.

Planar blooded beings are another matter entirely and can mix with any species. After all they aren't really any species themselves but abstract concepts taken physical form.

My opinion is that I don't really care enough about genetics to get pissed off at half elves and half orcs. It's low on my list of things to complain about in a setting because it's a fantasy game. I'm not trying to make it sciencey, I'm trying to make it fun. To be honest, humans bore me and I prefer half orcs and other races.

Exactly. I feel that genetics are pretty arbitrary in a world of magic. It's like people who complain that monks and samurai shouldn't exist in the game because they didn't exist in medieval Europe.

Well, so what? It's fantasy. Use what you like and leave the rest. If you want half-elves, half-dragons, half-beholders, half-badgers, half-statues, whatever--go nuts. If you want every race to abide by a strict taxonic classification and never breed outside their species, you can do that too. But do it because you want it that way, not because real-world science and history says that it shouldn't be possible.

It's magic. Plausibility went out the window when they added the wizards and dragons.

Half Elves and Half Orcs are pretty traditional. I don't use science as an explanation for anything in my game. Magic is good for that. Races are composed of the Five Elements (Earth, Air, Fire, Water, and Spirit). Some species are close enough to cross, others aren't. Some species (i.e. Centaurs - Human / Horse) date back to the incursions of Chaos into the world. They don't happen now (outside of the odd mad Wizard) because Chaos has ebbed -- although some odd combinations from that period have persisted as races / monsters (i.e. Chimerae, Manticores, etc.). Your game is, of course, whatever you want it to be.

Read The Hobbit. There is a sentence that says Bilbo Baggins was rumored to have a Fairy somewhere in his bloodline.

And in the last book of LOTR, goblin-ish/orc-ish human ruffians have taken over the Shire when the hobbits return home.

In both books there is Elron the Half-Elven.

Aragorn was a Numanorean, a long-lived human blessed with a small trace of Elf blood.

And lastly, Lady Galadriel and her husband Celaborn were part Celestial! Aasimar ELVES!

Tolkien set the standard. Halfbreeding is allowed and encouraged!

Read The Hobbit. There is a sentence that says Bilbo Baggins was rumored to have a Fairy somewhere in his bloodline.

And in the last book of LOTR, goblin-ish/orc-ish human ruffians have taken over the Shire when the hobbits return home.

In both books there is Elron the Half-Elven.

Aragorn was a Numanorean, a long-lived human blessed with a small trace of Elf blood.

And lastly, Lady Galadriel and her husband Celaborn were part Celestial! Aasimar ELVES!

Tolkien set the standard. Halfbreeding is allowed and encouraged!

not too mention the uruk hai were essentially half-orcs.

If you stick with the basic "Most half breeds are half human" you can posit that is more something in the human genetics that makes it possible. I.E. the fantasy human genome is malleable enough to allow for the easy inclusion foreign genetic material into it's structure thus allowing for the various half breeds.

that the explanation I like most, and the one I use in my games. Humans are so adaptable that even our DNA can adapt and evolve. It's what makes us capable of competing with all those century-living races who can all see in the dark or something.

I thought uruk hai was orc and goblins?

And lastly, Lady Galadriel and her husband Celaborn were part Celestial! Aasimar ELVES!

No. Galadriel and Celeborn were just regular elves. Galadriel was Noldor and had lived in Valinor, but had no Maian ancestry. Celeborn was (probably) Sindarin.

Elrond was descended from "Celestials". Melian the Maia was his great-great grandmother. Thus, obviously Arwen was as well.

And so was Aragorn, through Elrond's brother, but at far greater distance.

I thought uruk hai was orc and goblins?

Orcs and goblins were the same thing. "Goblin" was used more in the Hobbit and "Orc" in the LotR.

Uruk-Hai was used for the larger soldier orcs. Saruman's were more human-like and the orc-like men in Bree and later the Shire were his as well.

I don't mind unusual races defined by their heritage, but I don't care for half-elves, half-orcs, half-dragons, half-oatmeal, and half-biscuits.

I have half-biscuits. They are sworn enemies of the half-toasters.

My opinion is that I don't really care enough about genetics to get pissed off at half elves and half orcs. It's low on my list of things to complain about in a setting because it's a fantasy game. I'm not trying to make it sciencey, I'm trying to make it fun. To be honest, humans bore me and I prefer half orcs and other races.

FINALLY, someone else who thinks this.

I love half-breeds, hybrids, and just plain weird crosses. Purity is for the boring and prejudiced.

I don't even bother to say "Magic!": sometimes something exists and you never get to find out why.

I got into it with a peer today at my flgs. The argument pertained to half-elves and half-orcs. My argument is that i don't like the biology behind it or the point. IMO if you can have half-elves and what not, then you can have halfing orcs.....or gnomish goat folk, or whatever! That, to me, is silly. I dont think the two different species should be able to conceive half breeds, ESPECIALLY elves.

In my world there are simply no half elves. The half orc race is just a domestic orc with all the same stats as half orc. The elven races, being magical creatures, have become sterile from so much mana exposure. Thousands of years past the race was facing extinction. They created a way to conceive by magical means that im not going to get into. Long story short, there are no half breeds in my game, period.

What i was wondering is what all of your opinions on the matter are.

That's perfectly fine. That's not that different from Middle Earth after all if you are willing to ignore that world would have a population of 2 or three TOTAL Half-Elves at any one time. Save that in Tolkien's world you didn't have Half-Elves. You had children of a unique heritage each of which had to make the choice between becoming full fledged Elves or merely long-lived Humans.

That's the beauty of it... Your World, Your Rules.

That's perfectly fine. That's not that different from Middle Earth after all if you are willing to ignore that world would have a population of 2 or three TOTAL Half-Elves at any one time. Save that in Tolkien's world you didn't have Half-Elves. You had children of a unique heritage each of which had to make the choice between becoming full fledged Elves or merely long-lived Humans.

While Elrond and his children were the ones called "Half-elves", it's Elros and his descendents who seem to fit the D&D Half-Elf more closely. Long lived humans with some elvish traits.

It's hard to compare directly, since Tolkein's elves aren't that much like D&D Elves, being actually immortal and pretty much better than human.

LazarX wrote:

That's perfectly fine. That's not that different from Middle Earth after all if you are willing to ignore that world would have a population of 2 or three TOTAL Half-Elves at any one time. Save that in Tolkien's world you didn't have Half-Elves. You had children of a unique heritage each of which had to make the choice between becoming full fledged Elves or merely long-lived Humans.

While Elrond and his children were the ones called "Half-elves", it's Elros and his descendents who seem to fit the D&D Half-Elf more closely. Long lived humans with some elvish traits.

It's hard to compare directly, since Tolkein's elves aren't that much like D&D Elves, being actually immortal and pretty much better than human.

Actually both Elros and Elrond were true Half-Elves as was Arwen. All three of them made the choice, Elrond chose to bind with the Elves and the other two chose Mankind. Arwen's mother was a true Elf and she went over Sea before the events of the Hobbit. And there were Half-Elves like Dior, Thingol's Heir, who did not live long enough to make the choice.

thejeff wrote:

LazarX wrote:

That's perfectly fine. That's not that different from Middle Earth after all if you are willing to ignore that world would have a population of 2 or three TOTAL Half-Elves at any one time. Save that in Tolkien's world you didn't have Half-Elves. You had children of a unique heritage each of which had to make the choice between becoming full fledged Elves or merely long-lived Humans.

While Elrond and his children were the ones called "Half-elves", it's Elros and his descendents who seem to fit the D&D Half-Elf more closely. Long lived humans with some elvish traits.

It's hard to compare directly, since Tolkien's elves aren't that much like D&D Elves, being actually immortal and pretty much better than human.

Actually both Elros and Elrond were true Half-Elves as was Arwen. All three of them made the choice, Elrond chose to bind with the Elves and the other two chose Mankind. Arwen's mother was a true Elf and she went over Sea before the events of the Hobbit. And there were Half-Elves like Dior, Thingol's Heir, who did not live long enough to make the choice.

All true. I'd add Elladan and Elrohir as well, though it's not clear what choice they made.

All true. I'd add Elladan and Elrohir as well, though it's not clear what choice they made.
That's all sort of beside my point, which is that the official Tolkien Half-Elven don't really match D&D/PF half-elves at all, while the Numenorean royalty (and to a lesser extent the Dunadan) do.

What the Numenoreans including Aragorn map out to more accurately would the pure blooded Azlanti human variant. Since Aragorn really doesn't show any Half-Elven traits he seems to be more like Captain America, or the Pure Strain Humans from Gamma World, so Azlanti would fit him to a T.

As to Ellandan and Elrohir, since they seem to be the type to have taken after Elrond , I'd assume they both made the Elvish choice. Which makes Arwen's choice that much more poignant, she literally gave up her family, her race's heritage for the unknown Manish destiny and her love.

thejeff wrote:

All true. I'd add Elladan and Elrohir as well, though it's not clear what choice they made.
That's all sort of beside my point, which is that the official Tolkien Half-Elven don't really match D&D/PF half-elves at all, while the Numenorean royalty (and to a lesser extent the Dunadan) do.

What the Numenoreans including Aragorn map out to more accurately would the pure blooded Azlanti human variant. Since Aragorn really doesn't show any Half-Elven traits he seems to be more like Captain America, or the Pure Strain Humans from Gamma World, so Azlanti would fit him to a T.

Other than the extended life, as he was 80 at the time of the war and lived to 200+. I don't have the Inner Sea book here, so I don't remember if Pure-blooded Azlanti were long lived.

The Azlanti connection is a good one, particularly given the Numenor myth. Still, the Dunedain's specialness is due more to the elvish (and Maia) blood than to being any kind of "Pure" human. (And to more exposure to elvish culture and teachings. And unspecified blessings.)

But Elrond and his family map even less well to PF Half-elves, though that's partly do to elves not being the same. There's no Choice, for the most obvious point.

But Elrond and his family map even less well to PF Half-elves, though that's partly do to elves not being the same. There's no Choice, for the most obvious point.

Elrond's choice is noted in the Silmarillion. His brother Elros chose Man and he wanted to as well, bu he chose the Elven way for his wife's ( who was a pure elf) sake. His kids got some dispensation so Arwen was able to wait almost three thousand years before making her choice to become mortal and seal her fate with Aragorn. She willingly gives up her life after Aragorn himself does the same, dying shortly after he was buried. Elrond's sons chose as he did and ultimately passed over Sea.

In Tolkien terms Half-elves are essentially children of a specific family line which get the choice to become essentially Elves or Men at a certain time of their lives, usually on reaching maturity with significant exceptions granted for specific reasons.

thejeff wrote:

But Elrond and his family map even less well to PF Half-elves, though that's partly do to elves not being the same. There's no Choice, for the most obvious point.

Elrond's choice is noted in the Silmarillion. His brother Elros chose Man and he wanted to as well, bu he chose the Elven way for his wife's ( who was a pure elf) sake. His kids got some dispensation so Arwen was able to wait almost three thousand years before making her choice to become mortal and seal her fate with Aragorn. She willingly gives up her life after Aragorn himself does the same, dying shortly after he was buried. Elrond's sons chose as he did and ultimately passed over Sea.

Yes. Yes. I get it. And I can even see what I think you thought I meant.