Mechanical Questions about the Lore Skill

So I was thinking of making an Archaeologist character (going into the archaeologist archetype and everything) and I wanted to take the Archaeology lore skill, but then I looked and apparently it doesn’t exist. The archaeologist background gives you ARCHITECTURE Lore which is. . fine if you are exploring Ancient Greece, it so much if you are interested in, say, nomadic people like the Huns. So my question is: what can constitute a legal lore skill? What is too broad?

I know the answer is ‘ask your GM,’ but this is a character designed for PFS so I’d like to get this nailed down before I commit.

Anything in the Lore subcategories should be available even in PFS.

Anything in the Lore subcategories should be available even in PFS.

But there are Lores that are PFS legal not on that list, such as ‘Thassilon History Lore’ which comes from the Thassalon Delver background.”

Well, maybe someone more familiar with PFS rules will know better than I do. There are also the PFS subforums, though I am not sure which ones they use.

PFS also doesn't have or use some exhaustive of all legal lores, any more than the system does in general. Just take Archaelogy lore. It's in keeping with the breadth of other lore skills that are out there. Questions about exactly whether/how it applies in a specific case will follow the adjudication of the GM of a given session, unless there's something specifically written into that scenario.

The list of lores in the CRB is not an exhaustive list, it's a list of examples to get you started.

Also, I think there's been a bit of conceptual drift on just how specific lores should be. The CRB is clear that lores should be fairly narrow; a family of creatures like "vampires" is okay but "undead" would be too broad. But later books have backgrounds that give you undead lore.

And with that comes the question: if you have a newfangled lore that's broader, do you still get the lower DC that a lore typically gets compared to a main skill? If you're a wizard with undead lore, that's already using a better ability (Int) than you have for religion (Wis).

And with that comes the question: if you have a newfangled lore that's broader, do you still get the lower DC that a lore typically gets compared to a main skill? If you're a wizard with undead lore, that's already using a better ability (Int) than you have for religion (Wis).

I mean, the CRB suggests you grade the bonus based on how specific it is. Vampire Lore might get that full -5 while Undead Lore would get a lesser return since its broader.

Ascalaphus wrote:

And with that comes the question: if you have a newfangled lore that's broader, do you still get the lower DC that a lore typically gets compared to a main skill? If you're a wizard with undead lore, that's already using a better ability (Int) than you have for religion (Wis).

I mean, the CRB suggests you grade the bonus based on how specific it is. Vampire Lore might get that full -5 while Undead Lore would get a lesser return since its broader.

Yeah, Undead Lore's fine mainly because it's narrower than Religion, and enough so that I might still grant an easier DC, just not as low as Vampire Lore's as you said.

I think part of Archeology would fall under Society too, which might be why Architecture's used. It covers the buildings & ruins while Society covers the history, symbols, etc. found there.

I flagged this to get it moved to the Pathfinder Society section.

I flagged this to get it moved to the Pathfinder Society section.

Why? The question is relevant to all games, just my build happens to be for PFS. I assume other people have similar questions if it wasn’t PFS and they wanted a more satisfying answer than ‘talk to your GM.’

I flagged it for the PFS forums earlier today as well.

PFS answers are almost always more restrictive than answers to a more general question of 'how does this work'.

When you specifically ask for PFS-focused advice on a PFS character, it usually belongs in the PFS forums, both for better exposure to knowledgeable people and to keep people from thinking that PF2 has to be interpreted by PFS standards.

I assume other people have similar questions if it wasn’t PFS and they wanted a more satisfying answer than ‘talk to your GM.’

For non-PFS games, 'talk it out with the GM' may be considered an unsatisfying answer, but it is also the only answer.

The list of Lore categories that I linked to earlier is basically going to be universally accepted. As is any lore category given by a particular background or feat.

Other than that, you are going to want to work it out with the GM so that you can get a lore skill that will be relevant to the game. Otherwise you may end up with a lore category that is literally never used. Especially with a homebrewed campaign and setting, but even with some published adventures if you are trying to go for a character that isn't obviously related to the adventure.

graystone wrote:

I flagged this to get it moved to the Pathfinder Society section.

Why? The question is relevant to all games, just my build happens to be for PFS. I assume other people have similar questions if it wasn’t PFS and they wanted a more satisfying answer than ‘talk to your GM.’

Because you specified you wanted to know what a legal Lore skill was for a PFS character. You'll have a much better chance finding that out in the correct place that actually deals specifically in PFS issues. PFS has it's own houserules for things so an answer from me, that doesn't play it, might very well be incorrect for your character as I don't know the PFS rules.

I wouldn't suggest moving this to the PFS Forum. All they're going to say over there is "Ask the Rules Forum".

There is no "PFS Rules Forum". The PFS Forum is for asking Society-specific questions, like about Chronicles, Scenarios, Character Options and that sort of thing. Stuff that can't be asked anywhere else.

Asking about valid topics for Lore is a rules question.

That said, you might find this recent addition to the PFS FAQ helpful:

How should GMs handle Lores with similar names, such as Pathfinder Lore and Pathfinder Society Lore?

If a scenario calls for a specific Lore and a player has an extremely similar Lore (such as Pathfinder Lore in place of Pathfinder Society Lore), the GM should permit the use of that Lore. If a Lore is adjacent (e.g. Academia Lore in place of Library Lore), the GM can permit its use if they feel the two overlap enough. Ultimately, the GM is empowered to use their best judgment in such situations.

There is no "PFS Rules Forum". The PFS Forum is for asking Society-specific questions, like about Chronicles, Scenarios, Character Options and that sort of thing. Stuff that can't be asked anywhere else.

I'd personally say that asking 'what Lore skills are legal for this PFS character' is one that can't be asked elsewhere as I know I can't tell anyone what's legal in PFS and similarly it seems that a broader question on how broad Lore skills can be would be similar: why ask a question about PFS in a non-related section when there is a section specifically made for PFS. The fact that you have a PFS specific FAQ related to the question is a good indication to me that it should be in the PFS section.

PFS has their own houserules like kobold access: ask that in the normal section and the correct answer is uncommon but ask that for PFS and it's the equivalent of common, "Due to years of successful Pathfinder Society activities, all characters have access to the kobold ancestry." So to say it's the PFS section isn't a rules section is to ignore that PFS has it's own rules that differ from the normal rules. Just looking through the PFS section I see PLENTY of threads with rules questions like "Access to clan pistol in PFS without being a dwarf" and "Add new spell to spellbook or learn".

And with that comes the question: if you have a newfangled lore that's broader, do you still get the lower DC that a lore typically gets compared to a main skill? If you're a wizard with undead lore, that's already using a better ability (Int) than you have for religion (Wis).

Religion is used for RK checks about undead, fiends, celestials and monitors.

To get the same RK ability through lores, you need to take all these. And you will still not get the other uses of a Religion check.

So I was thinking of making an Archaeologist character (going into the archaeologist archetype and everything) and I wanted to take the Archaeology lore skill, but then I looked and apparently it doesn’t exist. The archaeologist background gives you ARCHITECTURE Lore which is. . fine if you are exploring Ancient Greece, it so much if you are interested in, say, nomadic people like the Huns. So my question is: what can constitute a legal lore skill? What is too broad?

I know the answer is ‘ask your GM,’ but this is a character designed for PFS so I’d like to get this nailed down before I commit.

IIRC an archaeologist investigates the ruins of earlier cultures' dwellings. No ruins, no luck. So Architecture Lore makes perfect sense IMO.

What would you want to use Archaeology lore for ?

For a legal PFS character with the Archaeologist background, you get the Architecture lore for free. You can then invest in Additional Lore (or appropriate skills like Society) to simulate a wider range of knowledge.

If you want another starting lore, take the background that grants it.

If you want a starting lore that does not exist, you cannot get it in PFS.

If you want a starting lore that does not exist, you cannot get it in PFS.

This is incorrect.

The list given in the Core Rulebook is not exhaustive.

Nefreet wrote:

There is no "PFS Rules Forum". The PFS Forum is for asking Society-specific questions, like about Chronicles, Scenarios, Character Options and that sort of thing. Stuff that can't be asked anywhere else.

I'd personally say that asking 'what Lore skills are legal for this PFS character' is one that can't be asked elsewhere as I know I can't tell anyone what's legal in PFS and similarly it seems that a broader question on how broad Lore skills can be would be similar: why ask a question about PFS in a non-related section when there is a section specifically made for PFS. The fact that you have a PFS specific FAQ related to the question is a good indication to me that it should be in the PFS section.

PFS has their own houserules like kobold access: ask that in the normal section and the correct answer is uncommon but ask that for PFS and it's the equivalent of common, "Due to years of successful Pathfinder Society activities, all characters have access to the kobold ancestry." So to say it's the PFS section isn't a rules section is to ignore that PFS has it's own rules that differ from the normal rules. Just looking through the PFS section I see PLENTY of threads with rules questions like "Access to clan pistol in PFS without being a dwarf" and "Add new spell to spellbook or learn".

Since you don't play PFS, I'm happy to explain. Those questions fall under "Character Options", previously known as "Additional Resources".

So, yes, asking whether Kobold is a valid Character Option belongs in the PFS Forum. Asking about Uncommon Spells, Archetypes, Feats is a common topic over there, as you point out.

Because that's not something you can ask in a Rules Forum.

The FAQ I linked answers the broader PFS question about GM adjudication. It isn't telling you what Lores are valid choices; it's a reference for GMs when a player wants to use an unlisted Lore for a skill check.

The Raven Black wrote:

If you want a starting lore that does not exist, you cannot get it in PFS.

This is incorrect.

The list given in the Core Rulebook is not exhaustive.

I would definitely expect table variance here. And my always-on advice for table variance in PFS is use the worst possible interpretation and build accordingly.

Also I was talking about the starting lore you get from your background. I do not believe you can change it at all in PFS. Sorry for not being clearer on this.

In the order of Character Creation, ABC, you can change the starting Lore from your Background if you already possess the same Lore from your Ancestry. Same for if your Class granted a Lore that either your Ancestry or Background already granted.

PFS doesn't have a Campaign rule changing that.

The PFS forum tends to just bounce rules questions to the rules forum because it's policy to use the standard rules wherever possible, and only do specific things if it's needed.

(I also don't really like excessive thread-moving because it can cause people involved of the thread to lose sight of it, and sometimes it really becomes a way of shutting people up by relegating them to a "lesser" forum. Like when someone is asking about why a rule is like that and if it's working well, and gets dumped into the homebrew forum.)

In the order of Character Creation, ABC, you can change the starting Lore from your Background if you already possess the same Lore from your Ancestry. Same for if your Class granted a Lore that either your Ancestry or Background already granted.

PFS doesn't have a Campaign rule changing that.

I admit I did not remember this point. That said, you cannot change the lore provided by the background except in this very specific situation.

So, unless they have an ancestry that grants Architecture lore, a PFS character with the Archaeologist background gets Architecture lore and not another lore.

Since you don't play PFS, I'm happy to explain. Those questions fall under "Character Options", previously known as "Additional Resources".

So, yes, asking whether Kobold is a valid Character Option belongs in the PFS Forum. Asking about Uncommon Spells, Archetypes, Feats is a common topic over there, as you point out.

Because that's not something you can ask in a Rules Forum.

The FAQ I linked answers the broader PFS question about GM adjudication. It isn't telling you what Lores are valid choices; it's a reference for GMs when a player wants to use an unlisted Lore for a skill check.

Fair enough, but I feel as though this question likewise can't be answered satisfactorily in a Rules Forum, since in the rules there quite literally are no invalid choices as long as a GM okays it. There are examples that they say may be a bit too far, but ultimately it's up to GM adjudication, which PFS has its own rules about. Whether there's a specific section laid out for this type of question in PFS yet is another question, but it most certainly can't be answered here with any more specificity than saying "Ask your GM, as lore skills not on the official list are 100% up to the GM, and even the ones on the list may never come up in many campaigns."

IIRC an archaeologist investigates the ruins of earlier cultures' dwellings. No ruins, no luck. So Architecture Lore makes perfect sense IMO.

You do NOT recall correctly.

An archaeologist investigates sites and artifacts.

This MAY include ruins but also includes things like burial sites, middens, material culture (especially pottery) etc etc. Architecture is, at best, a small part of archaeology and, at worst, completely nonexistent (as there are quite a few cultures that have left little or no ruins behind them).

If one wanted to pick a particular subset for the Lore I think the most applicable Lore would be something like "Pottery Lore" (pottery is much, much more prevalent than ruins and differs more from one culture to another, archaeologists use it pretty widely to trace trade patterns and patterns of cultural influence).

But pretty clearly the Lore skill should be Archaeology Lore. That is hardly too broad a subject for a Lore skill (at least not in the context of most games where it will generally rarely come up)

VampByDay wrote:

So I was thinking of making an Archaeologist character (going into the archaeologist archetype and everything) and I wanted to take the Archaeology lore skill, but then I looked and apparently it doesn’t exist. The archaeologist background gives you ARCHITECTURE Lore which is. . fine if you are exploring Ancient Greece, it so much if you are interested in, say, nomadic people like the Huns. So my question is: what can constitute a legal lore skill? What is too broad?

I know the answer is ‘ask your GM,’ but this is a character designed for PFS so I’d like to get this nailed down before I commit.

IIRC an archaeologist investigates the ruins of earlier cultures' dwellings. No ruins, no luck. So Architecture Lore makes perfect sense IMO.

(snip)

Incorrect:

I only went on one dig site as an undergrad (I'm more of a cultural/linquistic anthropologist myself) but the site had no dwellings. Or, no remains of dwellings anyway. It was a commonly used campsite for Native Americans of the inland northwest, but it was a repeated migratory campsite . . . the same people stopped there and camped for generations while moving about. No permenant dwellings remained. What we did find are:

-Projectile points and preforms (bits of rock that were primed to become arrowheads or spearheads or knives or whatever)

-Fire Cracked Rocks (Rocks that had been used as hearthstones)

-Flintknapped detritus (i.e. rocks that had been chipped away when forming projectile points) amidst charcoal (burned firewood)

I want my character to know what I know how to do . . . dig and find artifacts, know what they mean, know how to handle them. And yes, Modern Archaeology didn't exist back then, but the writers have repeatedly shown that Golarion and Mideval earth are quite different.

Second note: I'd be using the Skill Feat 'Additional Lore' to get architecture lore if allowed, as that lets you get any lore skill.

(Edit: and no, I don't want 'to play myself' in pathfinder. I want to be able to play an actual pathfinder. Like a guy who goes about and explores ancient archaeological sites and knows what they mean. Like, that is the goal of this character. I have plenty of other wild and wacky characters and beatsticks and whatnot, I though it would be fun to make an actual, down-to-earth pathfinder this time.)

On Golarion, almost all archaeological expeditions done by Pathfinders do involve ruins though. Just check PFS scenarios.

Second note: I'd be using the Skill Feat 'Additional Lore' to get architecture lore if allowed, as that lets you get any lore skill.

Additional Lore to pick up Archaeology Lore is absolutely allowed. You may have to make a case to your GM for when it is applicable, but most people are fairly generous with lores (and the FAQ referenced above supports that).

For PFS the easiest way to figure out of a lore is okay is to check if it's already something you might get through a background or such.

I appreciate that archivesofnethys started listing DCs for "Specific" and "Unspecific" Lores:

Recall Knowledge

Undead (Religion): DC 19
Unspecific Lore: DC 17
Specific Lore: DC 14

So using examples that we know exist, "Undead Lore" would be DC 17, and "Vampire Lore" would be DC 14.

Not all examples are going to be that clean cut, but then that's what we have GMs for.

Actually it exactly follows what was given in the CRB : specific lore = DC-5, unspecific lore = DC -2.

Yeah. It is just nice that it lists it now. It reminds GMs that the DC change rule for Lore skills exists.

For PFS the easiest way to figure out of a lore is okay is to check if it's already something you might get through a background or such.

I'd note that this is method is only partially complete. A lore that is granted by some back is DEFINITELY ok to take, but a lore not being granted by some background DOES NOT imply that it isn't acceptable.

Do archaeologists specialise in specific societies? You may need Old Thassilonian lore, Ancient Osiriani lore, Pre-Thrune Chelaxian lore, et cetera …

Do archaeologists specialise in specific societies? You may need Old Thassilonian lore, Ancient Osiriani lore, Pre-Thrune Chelaxian lore, et cetera …

It is included in the Background : "You gain the Additional Lore skill feat related to an ancient culture or the history of a culture you've studied (such as Azlanti Lore or Osirian History Lore)."

Do archaeologists specialise in specific societies? You may need Old Thassilonian lore, Ancient Osiriani lore, Pre-Thrune Chelaxian lore, et cetera …

They do, but any archaeologist worth their salt knows how and what to do on any dig. How to sift through for detritus and how to catalog artifacts, stuff like that. That's what I'm looking for. I don't want to be an expert in all ancient history, I want my guy to be able to do the job of an archaeologist, find stuff, properly document it, and report back to the pathfinders.

Qaianna wrote:

Do archaeologists specialise in specific societies? You may need Old Thassilonian lore, Ancient Osiriani lore, Pre-Thrune Chelaxian lore, et cetera …

They do, but any archaeologist worth their salt knows how and what to do on any dig. How to sift through for detritus and how to catalog artifacts, stuff like that. That's what I'm looking for. I don't want to be an expert in all ancient history, I want my guy to be able to do the job of an archaeologist, find stuff, properly document it, and report back to the pathfinders.

TBH in my game you would not need anything else than your background for this (and not even that actually). Lore : Architecture would help your character bring insights into related topics outside their occupation, but, as long as you do the latter for flavor rather than for an in-game advantage, you do not need Lore : find and record stuff.

If you do want some additional mechanical advantages, the Pathfinder Agent's feats (and assorted dedications such as Scrollmaster) provide exactly this IMO.

Qaianna wrote:

Do archaeologists specialise in specific societies? You may need Old Thassilonian lore, Ancient Osiriani lore, Pre-Thrune Chelaxian lore, et cetera …

They do, but any archaeologist worth their salt knows how and what to do on any dig. How to sift through for detritus and how to catalog artifacts, stuff like that. That's what I'm looking for. I don't want to be an expert in all ancient history, I want my guy to be able to do the job of an archaeologist, find stuff, properly document it, and report back to the pathfinders.

I would treat Archaeology Lore as analogous to Library Lore, but for different contexts. Similar ideas, the Lore represents your skill with a particular profession.

Moved to the Pathfinder Society forum

To answer the answerable question: you are not restricted in what you can choose for Lore. You want to take Lore (dragonflies), you can. Lore (aeon stones)? You can.

You can't take something to broad as to encompass as much as or more than a skill (e.g., no taking Lore (magic)).

For the archeologist, it's going to play out--especially in PFS--on a GM by GM basis how they interpret a given word. You've already seen above that different people are interpreting "archeology" to encompass different things. You could, if you wanted to, take one or more trainings to gain Lore in specific aspects of archeology since the more specific it is, the less likely it is to be interpreted differently by different people (but never 0% risk of that). E.g., Lore (artifacts), Lore (mortuary practices), Lore (plant remains). For what you mentioned in your last post, you might be looking at a combination of Lore (excavation) and Lore (academia or scribing or record keeping).

My own theory is that Lore Architecture was a typo under the Archaeology background, but they never errata'd it because Lore Architecture also made sense as a skill an Archaeologist would have.

Nerdy character build stuff:

I think most PFS GMs would allow Lore Archaeology as an additional Lore, and treat it with the same breadth as Lore Academia or Lore Library. I am going to suggest that you do take Lore Archaeology with additional lore, so that it can scale automatically and be the best Archaeology lore around. Even if a table GM dislikes Lore Archaeology (which would be weird, since the list of lores in the CRB is not comprehensive, and every profession is supposed to have its own lore) you have a fall-back skill. Remember that as an archaeologist archetype, your character will definitely have Society, the actual skill needed to explore cultures of all kinds.

Have you played or GMed 3-99 Fate in the Future?

Another possibility is to acquire three Archaeologist feats by level 4, and do a level of loremaster just to dip loremaster lore at level 6 and always have the right lore on hand. That would be silly, but possible.

Posting back again as myself and putting on my freelancer hat. As a freelancer, I definitely try to look for lore skills offered by backgrounds and ancestries when calling for specific lores in a scenario turnover. Don't expect to see Lore Archaeology come up much in scenarios as a called-out lore.*

On the other hand, as noted further up thread, GMs will often allow related lores to substitute for each other in appropriate situations.

Hmm

_______
* There was an entire scenario that called out Bhopan Lore repeatedly, so what do I know? Maybe you will see Archaeology Lore called out in a scenario someday. Nothing is certain.

...procrastinating going back to work...

I want my guy to be able to do the job of an archaeologist, find stuff, properly document it, and report back to the pathfinders.

Just musing here and going back to the player's vision of what Lore (archaeology) might mean. I'd say that being given the task of writing a report, for example, and claiming Lore (archeology) would work in place of given Lores (academia and scribing) isn't an intuitive leap that most GMs would make, especially on the fly.

You're an adventurer archeologist, most--or maybe I'm giving away my age--GMs would envision Indiana Jones (or maybe Lara Croft for younger ones) and say "No."

Where asking to use Lore (archeology) to recognize who lived here based on the burial practices is much more likely to get a "Yes."

Also, suggesting to use Lore (archeology) in place of Perception to Search/Seek for important artifacts would be a tough sell.

So there's lots of nebulous uncertainty in getting what you want out of Lore (archeology) depending on Scenario/situation/GM variables.

Fortunately, the Archaeologist archetype requires Perception, Society and Thievery as prerequisites. So the character would have those other skills and abilities to fall back upon to do the other archaeology tasks.

...though why does the archetype require being trained in Perception as a prerequisite? Isn't everyone trained in Perception?

Every class is at least Trained in Perception.
Future proofing in case some insane future Class that leaves you Untrained in Perception?

Personally, I'd go with the archaeologist background and the architecture lore that comes with it - and if there ever comes a situation where you're exploring a site where archaeology would be appropriate but architecture is not, I'd explain the background to GM and ask if I can use the architecture lore because that's literally the lore given by the archaeologist background. Most GMs I know would probably agree.

Using Lores for Recall Knowledge is not so popular that I as a GM feel I need to curtail it, or are such an abused loophole that I feel the need to push back.

If an archaeologist themed character comes across something archaeology themed, I'd probably allow their Lore to apply, whether the words written on their paper were Archaeology Lore or Architecture Lore or Nomad Lore or Fossilized Feces Lore. I don't want everyone gravitating towards the mechanically most powerful Lores because there's more applications of Orc Lore than Gnoll Lore.

Lores are supposed to be ways of injecting flavor into your character with minor mechanical benefit. Or, at least, that's what I think they should be.

At some point, if the game gets bogged down from people lobbying with wild and tenuous Lore connections, yeah, maybe we should put some fences up. But right now the scales are definitely on the side of "Lores aren't used enough," not "Lores are used too much."