What I should have submitted for RPGSS 2015

So after seeing the Top 32 reveal and combing through the thousands of posts about the items that didn't make it (I am still doing this), I thought it might be neat to have a thread where people could post the items they almost submitted or items that were their alternates. The best way to do this would actually be to post the item you submitted and one or two alternates you had. I will give brief reviews/critiques and invite everyone reading this thread to feel free to review/critique as well.

Please use spoiler tags when posting items so it is easier for people to read through the thread.

As the OP I will put myself out there first. Which one should I have submitted?

OR

No offense to the items, as for a home game I'd take them with open arms.
But I think neither is well suited for Superstar, the first introduces a template, the second is an item set.

No offense to the items, as for a home game I'd take them with open arms.

But I think neither is well suited for Superstar, the first introduces a template, the second is an item set.

No worries, I got a thick skin and I appreciate any feedback. The only way to get better is to put yourself out there and receive criticism. Then you can use the criticism to get better. You think the items are creative and that is really what matters.

Hi James

I did not have an alternative entry.

I am always suspicious of membership prerequisites for an item as it seems like a GM's forced plot device for a character but I do like the Desert Caller.

What's wrong with using a template? It's part of the game - it might make the entry a bit bulkier but I'd much rather it was there than having to go away and read a book to find out what the effect was supposed to be or what the writer was getting at.

I like the idea that a fallen/disgraced worshipper can still use and possess such an item. Was that intended? If so it sets up a fight with another who wields such a weapon which I think would be pretty nifty.

But...what does "drawn" mean...flat on or stuck in the sand, in hand, out of a scabbard (would drawing it from a sash rather than a scabbard be enough?), strapped to the back of a camel, left on the table at home?... Also at any level this is makes summoned creatures very powerful and for that reason I'd probably prefer x/uses a day and maybe a higher purchase cost.

That said I certainly consider that the Desert Caller has RPGSS potential and, if it's ok with you, I have some ideas of how to make use of something like this in my current game (oddly enough involving watery types!).

Yeah, I agree, neither item would get my vote. It was "create a magic item," not "create a template" or "create multiple magic items." Keep in mind all of these comments are intended to help, not hurt.

Further, the sandcaller buffs what is already one of the strongest possible character options: summoning. I hate summoning. It doesn't even just give an unfair mechanical boost in power, it also steals spotlight and game time because it takes so long to adjucate. So, I will never pick an item that makes summoning stronger.

The whirlwind is also kind of awkward. You can't take AoOs against targets that have total concealment. Are you basically saying you don't take AoOs anymore from summoning? Or that you still provoke them even with total concealment? Does it really only protect against AoOs? If I just ready an attack to hit you while you're casting it (since it takes a full round, normally) am I unaffected by the whirlwind?

Oh, and a vulnerability to water isn't even a thing--there's no "water damage" in the game. You're relying on the GM to adjudicate when damage is dealt by water, or whether non-damaging water would damage such a creature.

Thorn and Thicket, meanwhile, even if you look past the being two items thing, is also problematic. For one, it's two items that nobody uses. Sickles are awful weapons, and I can't think of any serious weapon user that would ever wield one on purpose. Likewise, light shields basically serve no purpose. If you want to bash or get AC, you use a heavy shield. If you want a free hand, you use a buckler. Light shields are pointless.

And it's weird that it's covered in spines but it's not a spiked shield.

There are a lot of clarity issues here. What does being struck by the wielder mean? Can I hold the thorn and thicket and then attack with unarmed strikes? If I have four arms, can I hold them and then hit with a polearm? Can I hold them and then cast a spell at someone? Do those count as striking?

Then, requiring a save every swing from or against the wielder just to avoid 1d6 damage? That's going to get annoying. Making a "save vs. poison" also isn't a thing, since you don't follow the proper format for poison. You really want it to be a save vs. nausea and then have it count as a poison effect.

Finally, once per week? Really? I don't even like daily abilities--now, I have to track weeks, too? No, thanks.

I don't mind the feedback and as I mentioned before, I have a thick skin. The point of this thread wasn't to have my items critiqued. The point was to see what alternatives people had thought about submitting and then to see if they made the right choice.

As for the criticism, I totally welcome it but I wouldn't create an entire thread dedicated to the critiquing of my items. That would really be arrogant and self-centered.

Anyway, mplindustries- to respond to your critiques.

Although some of that may come off as snarky, I didn't mean it in that manner at all. I really appreciate your comments and think several of them have great merit and will help me in designing items. So thank you very much.

I'll pipe in that I also don't like once a week. It's basically translated as once per adventure.

I actually did have an item before Sightstealer Rapier, with the same imagery but it was even more SiaC. No twist whatsoever, though I think mechanically solid. I'm glad I didn't submit it, so maybe it's not fully on topic (sorry).

Cayden's Grin I concepted, but couldn't get past the jokes. It had a more interesting new mechanic than my actual submission though.

Since the contest has ended, I've been nonstop pitching ideas to my gaming group.

So, first, just to show I'm not above it all or whatever, my item got culled:

I never had any alternate items made, but I did have several revisions. My goal was a throwing weapon that made throwing a viable option without requiring a belt slot item (the blinkback belt is 100% necessary for throwing builds). It began just as a throwing axe that teleported to your hand, essentially a combined Blinkback Belt + Throwing Axe, which was very wordy and clunky sounding (and it disappeared in a poof of crow feathers and popped into your hand with a crow shriek). I was never able to find concise, elegant wording for the teleportation effect, so, abandoned it for a duplication effect. But trying to word the ability to make a throwing motion without letting go and sending a ghostly version of the axe out never worked out. The same for throwing the weapon's shadow. So, eventually, I settled on shooting blasts of power, and the wording worked out so perfectly and elegantly. Well, in my opinion. Obviously, people hated it. I think what I took as elegance others took as "laziness" or they totally didn't understand what it did and just thought I didn't finish or explain it enough.

I was forced to recognize that I am a much better critic and editor than actual writer.

Although some of that may come off as snarky, I didn't mean it in that manner at all. I really appreciate your comments and think several of them have great merit and will help me in designing items. So thank you very much.

No offense taken, and I hope you feel the same way here.

I'll pipe in that I also don't like once a week. It's basically translated as once per adventure.

I actually did have an item before Sightstealer Rapier, with the same imagery but it was even more SiaC. No twist whatsoever, though I think mechanically solid. I'm glad I didn't submit it, so maybe it's not fully on topic (sorry).

** spoiler omitted **

Cayden's Grin I concepted, but couldn't get past the jokes. It had a more interesting new mechanic than my actual submission though.

** spoiler omitted **

Since the contest has ended, I've been nonstop pitching ideas to my gaming group.

I actually much prefer the Assassin's Escape to the Sightstealing Rapier. The Sightstealer came across as awkward. And I dislike the ridiculously long duration on the blind (yes, I am aware that the spell it's based on is permanent, a fact that I dislike enough as is).

I also like the thought behind Cayden's Grin, but obviously, the actual wording is too silly to possibly work. The idea, though, is a nice one.

I liked Stormcrow Tomahawk, as I'm also frustrated by lack of support for throwing weapons. I don't think you should assume people hated it, and I'm definitely surprised it didn't make the cull.

That said, I found the imagery awkward, since you're not actually throwing it, you're blasting away as if it were a rod or wand. The stormcrow flavor is cool, but you aren't throwing anything.

I agree with the mechanic idea on your second item, but yeah the jokiness was too much. I would refine that mechanic and try to use it with something else.

So I would say you made the right decision to for your entry, even though you didn't advance. Based on what you had, "you chose... wisely."

.... I was forced to recognize that I am a much better critic and editor than actual writer....

No offense taken. RE: Poison- now I see what you were saying, and you are correct. RE: rules lawyers- I know they are a part of the game. I have one in my group whom I like very much. I don't think like a rules lawyer so I sometimes miss the loop holes that a rules lawyer will find.

As for the tomahawk- I didn't hate it and I posted my thoughts on it in the critique my item thread. However I will add something here now that I gained some insight from your post. I think it would have been cool to have some different effect occur when the axe "released" the screaming crow. Maybe it should have released an entire murder of crows that did some sonic effect. The power you gave it really was just the returning power, which maybe you didn't know about.

Steve- I am glad you liked my item. If you would like me to critique yours send me a PM or just list its name here and I will try to find it in the CMIT.

What's wrong with using a template? It's part of the game - it might make the entry a bit bulkier but I'd much rather it was there than having to go away and read a book to find out what the effect was supposed to be or what the writer was getting at.

To be honest, Steve, I am still trying to figure this one out. I have yet to receive an explanation that I find satisfactory. I have been told adding the template was akin to entering a monster to the competition. I find this explanation very inadequate.

I like the idea that a fallen/disgraced worshipper can still use and possess such an item. Was that intended? If so it sets up a fight with another who wields such a weapon which I think would be pretty nifty.

But...what does "drawn" mean...flat on or stuck in the sand, in hand, out of a scabbard (would drawing it from a sash rather than a scabbard be enough?), strapped to the back of a camel, left on the table at home?... Also at any level this is makes summoned creatures very powerful and for that reason I'd probably prefer x/uses a day and maybe a higher purchase cost.

Yeah I should have just stuck with wielded. The power does not work if the sword is sitting in its scabbard or laying on the ground. The caster must have it in hand. As for powerful summoned creatures- that was the point, but I do agree with your x/day suggestion.

That said I certainly consider that the Desert Caller has RPGSS potential and, if it's ok with you, I have some ideas of how to make use of something like this in my current game (oddly enough involving watery types!).

Please use away, Steve! I am always flattered and gratified when someone likes what I have created.

As for the tomahawk- I didn't hate it and I posted my thoughts on it in the critique my item thread. However I will add something here now that I gained some insight from your post. I think it would have been cool to have some different effect occur when the axe "released" the screaming crow. Maybe it should have released an entire murder of crows that did some sonic effect. The power you gave it really was just the returning power, which maybe you didn't know about.

I was aware of Returning, but Returning does not allow for a full attack. It's a garbage property. The basis was a Throwing weapon plus a Blinkback Belt, which is why it's priced as a +1 Distant Shock weapon with a slotless Blinkback Belt tacked on. I didn't want to add any other powers because I felt like it was already too expensive as is, and I didn't think I would bother using most other powers anyway. It was my mistake--my tastes and desire for simplicity cost me.

mplindustries-

I get that your magical item taste runs toward the practical. I actually agree with you on this. If I were to show you some of my characters, you would see they don't have way out there items. They have items that are practical and assist them in their endeavors. The item shouldn't outshine the character.

With RPGSS the creator has to make a "splash" because you are trying to appeal to a much broader audience. Sometimes items will get through that don't make a big splash, see my item from last year, but for the most part voters want things that help directly in combat. And they want them to help in a big, new, exciting or different way.

I also would like to make throwing weapons a viable and competitive means of combat, but for the contest it has to be done in a "splashy" way, otherwise you fade in with the rest of the average "good for a magic item book" items. I use that term because that is how I would have classified your tomahawk. Good for a magic item book but not WOW.

I think some cool imagery would have been the thrown axe transforming into a murder of crows speeding toward the target. Designate that the murder has the same amount of attacks as the wielder which solves the full attack problem in a cinematic way. Once the murder has completed all of its attacks it dissipates and the tomahawk reappears in the wielder's hand. You could even give different damage or effects for the murder.

I know giving different damage/effects for the murder diverges from your intent of KISS, but it makes the item unique and as I mentioned before, gives it a cinematic quality that is very popular in RPGSS. I must be honest, discussing it here has given me a few ideas and has inspired me to maybe do a different take on it.

Wow.... This thread is an interesting mix of... well... not what I expected reading James Casey's first post.

Couple of thoughts that inspired me to post after skimming through.

1 - To answer your question, I would have said Sarenrae's desert caller. I just dig that and the visual. Thorn and thicket is pretty cool too, but with the sickle being a simple weapon, you narrow your potential users to a smaller group, which leads me to my second point -

2 - Sickles are not stupid weapons wielded by stupid players who don't know any better. Sickles are in fact, excellent choices for players who can only use simple weapons AND ARE ACTUALLY PRIMARILY MELEE CHARACTERS. Namely the rogue and ninja, who tend to benifit highly from the weapon finesse feat, which can only be applied to light, one handed weapons. (adds your dex bonus to hit instead of strength) What distinguishes this from a short sword which has essentially the same mechanics, (different damage type) is the ability to trip without getting tripped back if you make a bad roll. You can even use that weapon with some other feats that help you specialize in combat maneuvers (such as... trip, for example) and get really freaking good at tripping, with the only penalty for messing up being that you drop your weapon. (instead of being tripped yourself...) Also, that problem is easily remedied by purchasing a very inexpensive weapon cord, which allows you to retrieve your dropped or disarmed weapon as a swift action, instead of a move action.

3 - Some of the critique I have seen against the stormcrow tomahawk is (imo) misplaced. That being said, I was generally unimpressed because it was so short. Give me something to read... While I respect your opinion of utility being most important, if it isn't interesting, voters won't care about it. It's nearly impossible to make something interesting in so few words. Just my 2 cents. Probably the wrong spot for it...

Yeah- the thread has diverged a bit, probably because I should have named it differently. Maybe What Should you have submitted for RPGSS 2015. Oh well, I don't mind the unintended consequences of my post.

The trip ability is a big reason why I have characters use the sickle, Steve. I have a ranger that uses two-weapon combat with sickles and makes prodigious use of the trip ability, so I am a big fan of the sickle.

Last divergence, I promise ;)

I also would like to make throwing weapons a viable and competitive means of combat, but for the contest it has to be done in a "splashy" way, otherwise you fade in with the rest of the average "good for a magic item book" items. I use that term because that is how I would have classified your tomahawk. Good for a magic item book but not WOW.

This was the first year I saw the contest, and, well, since the prize was being published, I thought they were looking for something they could publish. It seems like people voting want it to be a step beyond that (though the top 32 are...not especially wow! to me, either). It was my mistake and I understand where I went wrong.

I know giving different damage/effects for the murder diverges from your intent of KISS, but it makes the item unique and as I mentioned before, gives it a cinematic quality that is very popular in RPGSS. I must be honest, discussing it here has given me a few ideas and has inspired me to maybe do a different take on it.

All of that stuff sounds really cool, but, I have to admit, I don't really want magic items to have big flashy effects like that because, well, I hate magic items. This is getting too far off track, though. I'll talk about that in another thread on the main boards if such a discussion is desired.

If you want to take the inspiration an run with it, feel free. I don't mind.

2 - Sickles are not stupid weapons wielded by stupid players who don't know any better. Sickles are in fact, excellent choices for players who can only use simple weapons AND ARE ACTUALLY PRIMARILY MELEE CHARACTERS. Namely the rogue and ninja, who tend to benifit highly from the weapon finesse feat, which can only be applied to light, one handed weapons. (adds your dex bonus to hit instead of strength) What distinguishes this from a short sword which has essentially the same mechanics, (different damage type) is the ability to trip without getting tripped back if you make a bad roll. You can even use that weapon with some other feats that help you specialize in combat maneuvers (such as... trip, for example) and get really freaking good at tripping, with the only penalty for messing up being that you drop your weapon. (instead of being tripped yourself...) Also, that problem is easily remedied by purchasing a very inexpensive weapon cord, which allows you to retrieve your dropped or disarmed weapon as a swift action, instead of a move action.

I don't intend to be insulting or say that only stupid people wield sickles, but that doesn't mean it's not a trap. Plenty of smart people fall into traps. In fact, the trip property is just adding to the trap, in my opinion, because rogues and ninja are really bad at combat maneuvers. Hell, by the mid game, even normal fighters and other full BAB characters have trouble using Combat Maneuvers unless they put a great deal of effort into focusing on such things.

After the first few levels (before specific magic items can be found or made) Rogues and Ninja will only be able to reliably trip enemies that are such push overs, they should just be attacked normally and killed, rather than tripped.

Edit: Dual wielders, even rangers, that can routinely trip successfully, must be playing in very specific kinds of games quite different from what is expected. Having seen a few APs, for example, that would never fly in those.

And specifically in regards to the Thorn and Thicket, Rogues and Ninja generally do not use shields ;)

3 - Some of the critique I have seen against the stormcrow tomahawk is (imo) misplaced. That being said, I was generally unimpressed because it was so short. Give me something to read... While I respect your opinion of utility being most important, if it isn't interesting, voters won't care about it. It's nearly impossible to make something interesting in so few words. Just my 2 cents. Probably the wrong spot for it...

Yeah, I only really posted it here because I started commenting on items and didn't think it was fair not to let others comment on mine. I never actually saved an alternate, I just went through revisions, which cut the word count down and down until I was satisfied and everyone else was bored ;)

Edit: What I should have submitted was an item based on a Scythe one of my characters carried around. I was a Witch hyper specialized in the Slumber Hex, and I'd use my Scythe to Coup de Grace the enemies in their sleep. I called it the Dreamreaper.

The original wasn't a magic item or anything, just a plain regular item I had named. And I wasn't proficient in its use anyway, so it was just for sleep murder, but I bet I could have turned that into a Staff that functioned as a Scythe, carried some sleep spells (maybe that altered the sleep spells to have higher caps) and perhaps something that let me call up memories from the guy when I coup de graced them.

Dreamreaper is a RPGSS name btw.

mplindustries: in your case, I would have gone with your "throws a shadow of itself" idea, but clearly make the wielder throw the shadows. This has flavor and instead of doing a "daily" limit you could introduce a limit with the shadow effect, i.e., the damage can be partially disbelieved like shadow conjurations, etc.

James Casey: neat thread. I'm in a similar boat, in that I felt like a doofus with my goofy entry, so I did some "penance" and wrote some new items. For one thing, I did better research on the pricing. I put my penance up in another thread if you're into trading critiques.

In the case of your two, if I was "in the room" on these ideas, I would have said about the sword to ditch the template and focus on the real meat, which is protecting the summoner during a full-round cast. For thorn and thicket, I would have suggested making the item a sword that added a shield bonus along the theme you suggested. Perhaps when fighting defensively with the sword (or a quarterstaff or a spiked mace of some kind), it sprouted a thicket that added to your defense (like the basket of a rapier getting larger and protecting all of you, not just your hand). My two cents.

since the prize was being published, I thought they were looking for something they could publish

No.

the judges, on the other hand, are looking at the designer behind the item. Because in the end we are not really picking items, we are picking the best 32 contestants for RPG Superstar and the goal of RPG Superstar is not to find a great set of items, it is to find a great set of potential new designers.

This explains, I think, why voters tend to like and vote in walkie-talkie items or items that are really useful to a player while the judges never really seem to advance those kinds of items.

Finding competent, non-"superstar" designers is a bonus, but not the goal.

Every year, the judges call up items that a lot of observers consider to be a miss because at least one of the judges sees Superstar potential in the designer despite the item's flaws.

Submitting a risk-free, competent item in the open call is viable, and arguably some of this year's Top 32 do just that. But judges are willing to advance entries regardless of the risks the designer takes if the item exhibits enough creative potential.

Specifically, regarding the tomahawk vs. past commentary of judges and designers:

None of these mean the tomahawk's a bad item. On the contrary, it's a tight example of competent design. The problem is that the tomahawk didn't show any of your ambition or imagination. It didn't sell the work you put into it well enough to make up for its flaws or shortcomings.

None of these mean the tomahawk's a bad item. On the contrary, it's a tight example of competent design. The problem is that the tomahawk didn't show any of your ambition or imagination. It didn't sell the work you put into it well enough to make up for its flaws or shortcomings.

I do appreciate the comments. I should have done more research into the competition before entering, but I only saw it with like a day left. You're spot on and I appreciate it. I was not especially ambitious--I generally don't like magic items, so, they're probably my weakest area of Pathfinder knowledge (with maps, since I don't use them, right up there next, so I am probably not destined to win this contest). I do very much want to work in the RPG industry, and I will try again next year (after spending the year learning about the things I don't like), but I'd ultimately rather be editing in the long run.

I do very much want to work in the RPG industry, and I will try again next year (after spending the year learning about the things I don't like), but I'd ultimately rather be editing in the long run.

Editing's a great path into the industry! It's been mine for the last three years.

And mind that Superstar's not the only Paizo open call.

mpl, you may be interesting in the Blazing 9 thread. It starts every year after Superstar wraps up and is basically a practice thread for magic items (it's pretty much always been wondrous items, but I imagine that will change after this year). It's usually not the most active thread, but it gets steady responses throughout the year with people who are very focused on the contest.

I've considered starting a thread not unlike this one, but something I would name a "Lemonade" thread. Something that would offer a singular place for submitting retooled or even rethought items for critique to see if we can improve ourselves in the immediate. Would this thread be such a place, or would it be my place to create it?