Inspired by Capricornus' thread in the Advice forum, I've been talking to my group about the possibility of making a four-man Sorcerer-only party and running them through an AP.
We've all but finalized the characters (I'll list them below), but the question becomes which AP to run. We've played through Skull n Shackles and Second Darkness, and have our RotRL campaign currently in limbo... I also own Legacy of Fire, Shattered Star and am getting the Reign of Winter AP through my subscription. I'd like to pick up a new AP the old-fashioned way, but I'm torn as to which to invest in, and I thought this might be a good opportunity to decide, so any recommendations would be welcomed.
All-Sorcerer party:
Human 12th level Sorcerer (Draconic) / 8th level Dragon Disciple
Human 12th level Sorcerer (Draconic) / 8th level Dragon Disciple
These two are brothers with similar powers and skill sets, used to fighting in tandem. They will alternate between being blasters and serving as our melee threats when necessary. Spells will primarily be fire damage spells and combat buffs like Mage Armor, Form of the Dragon and Transformation. Both will pursue Spell Perfection: Firesnake, will take the Eldrtich Heritage feats for the Orc bloodline (reflavored to reflect their dragonic blood) and they're thinking about taking the Allied Spellcaster teamwork feat.
Kitsune 20th level Sorcerer (Fey - Sylvan)
The party leader, she'll specialize in enchantments, lock-downs and buffs for the other players. As often as not she'll have a charmed or paid hireling (or two) around to handle mundane duties that the rest of the party is light on (such as tracking, rogue-type skills or serving as a front-liner). She'll also have an allosaurus as an animal companion and likely a compsognathus familiar via the Arcane Bloodline/Eldritch Heritage feats - though both will have to be reflavored as creatures from the Feywild since there are no dinosaurs in our campaigns.
Dwarven 20th level Sorcerer (Elemental Earth - Primal)
An unconventional choice for a Sorcerer, this build actually looks pretty promising. The player plans on focusing on summoning spells, specifically earth elementals whenever possible, as well as using earth-based and acid-based spells (Stone Call, Pit Spells, Acidic Spray, etc.) to both deal damage and shape the battlefield.
You're running 20th level characters through an AP? Or you're running these characters starting at 1st level and hoping they live long enough to reach 20th level?
You're running 20th level characters through an AP? Or you're running these characters starting at 1st level and hoping they live long enough to reach 20th level?
Probably the latter. People who pre-plan builds usually do it all the way, regardless of how high they eventually get.
I would be interested to see how this group would fare in Carrion Crown. Have a feeling it might be a meat grinder with no divine casters or Paladins, but I could be wrong.
Carrion Crown and Shattered Star would be a good challenge for this group.
I would be interested to see how this group would fare in Carrion Crown. Have a feeling it might be a meat grinder with no divine casters or Paladins, but I could be wrong.
Carrion Crown is pretty undead heavy, right? That would certainly mitigate one member of the group. Well, not completely of course... but it would be the flip side of Rise of the Rune Lords where the Kitsune Sorcerer would just dominate. I'd prefer to try and strike a balance between the two.
I'm actually leaning towards Shattered Star of the AP's I own, but I was wondering about Jade Regent or Serpent's Skull...
EDIT: One little thing that might be relevant. The house-rule we have that's most likely to be significant for this group is that we've done away with Spell Resistance as written - we've come to the conclusion that having to beat a saving throw AND spell resistance AND energy resistance, etc. just to land a spell was getting silly. To streamline things, we've simply decided that any creature who normally has Spell Resistance instead gains an across the board +4 to saves vs. Spells and Spell-like abilities.
Carrion Crown and Shattered Star would be a good challenge for this group.
Turin, I've been meaning to tell you this for a while...
Your avi creeps me the hell out.
^____^ My pretty face? Really? KEWL!!
Shattered Star suits the challenges your group will be facing more "fairly" than Carrion Crown. Unless the kitsune was going Celestial-themed instead of Fey-themed [as an aasimar just to fit that theme properly], the sorcerers/sorceresses would die horribly and repeatedly.
The thing about Spell Resistance is it completely negates magic. Thus is't not redundant and serves a specific purpose.
The thing about Spell Resistance is it completely negates magic. Thus is't not redundant and serves a specific purpose.
It 'completely negates magic' around 45% to 55% of the time... thus it doesn't completely negate magic. Not to mention it adds another round of dice rolls to combat and imposes a ridiculous feat tax on all spellcasters.
Our solution has worked pretty well. Spell Resistant creatures are harder to affect with spells, as intended, casters aren't saddled with two obligatory feats they otherwise would never use and combat speeds up a little more which is good for everyone. Melee types have to overcome AC and damage resistance, Casters have to overcome saves and elemental resistance, so its fairly well-balanced from our perspective, especially considering saves are usually a lot harder to overcome than AC.
^____^ My pretty face? Really? KEWL!!
Shattered Star suits the challenges your group will be facing more "fairly" than Carrion Crown. Unless the kitsune was going Celestial-themed instead of Fey-themed [as an aasimar just to fit that theme properly], the sorcerers/sorceresses would die horribly and repeatedly.
I wouldn't go that far - its a pretty strong group of players and an undead-heavy campaign would only prove problematic for one of the characters listed... still, I like the idea of a more 'balanced' challenge.
I like the solution to SR your group uses, Story Archer.
When I first saw this title I wanted to say Legacy of Fire, and then see that you owned it. I guess I want to see it ruled out by a way other than omission. So I'll ask the question, why not Legacy of Fire?
It did occur to me that an AP with so many fire resistant/fire immune foes would put half the party at a disadvantage, but then again, the brothers were designed to be able to go melee when faced with such a challenge, especially at later levels (by my calculations Form of the Dragon + Transformation is a pretty potent mix, especially x2) and its not as if they won't have their own fire resistance to balance into the mix... truth is, I really was hoping to use this as a factor in determining which new AP I buy - and I'm not sure I'll have the time to do the Pathfinder conversion from 3.5.
It does seem like a pretty cool AP. Out of curiosity, why Legacy of Fire instead of one of the others?
I like the solution to SR your group uses, Story Archer.
Heh - you should see some of our other house rules.
So I take it then you're also giving MR critters Improved Evasion? After all, when MR takes effect, then if they're at point blank range for Fireball they're not touched by it if MR works. But if they make their save, they take half damage.
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I was drawn because of the Wish Wars in the backstory as well as the magical artifacts, plane hoping and other beings in the background. You also have plenty of foes from the very first adventure which will challenge but not overwhelm a magic based party. The only other ones that strikes this chord for me with sorcerers is Serpent's Skull or Jade Regent.
My inclinations with a sorcerer based party is to keep them from being primarily in dungeons, but not in a wilderness based campaign which makes those two less appealing in my mind. Plus I know there already conversions for 3.5 to PF out there for the APs, and Legacy of Fire gets that treatment more than most as from what I can tell its beloved.
I was drawn because of the Wish Wars in the backstory as well as the magical artifacts, plane hoping and other beings in the background. You also have plenty of foes from the very first adventure which will challenge but not overwhelm a magic based party. The only other ones that strikes this chord for me with sorcerers is Serpent's Skull or Jade Regent.
My inclinations with a sorcerer based party is to keep them from being primarily in dungeons, but not in a wilderness based campaign which makes those two less appealing in my mind. Plus I know there already conversions for 3.5 to PF out there for the APs, and Legacy of Fire gets that treatment more than most as from what I can tell its beloved.
Oh, there's no doubting that its a great AP, I just thought there might be a specific reason to suggest it for this party.
I think they'll do fine regardless of environment. We'll have characters capable of flight and one capable of moving through earth and stone. Summoned creatures will absorb some of the damage the PC's might otherwise endure and hit points will be well above average for most Sorcerers.
When we settle on which AP we're going to run, I'll make some posts on the appropriate forum.
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For the record I just thought it was the best AP for the party you put forward. Any APs are going to have some immunity issues somewhere, and as you said the Double Dragons have other ways to deal. Shattered Star has constructs which are going to be trying for an all magic party. If I was just suggesting which AP I thought was the best and wouldn't steamroll or be steamrolled I say just run Reign in Winter. Its probably the best written thing I've read from paizo, it would mix well with your fey blooded Kitsune, and your Dragons would get a chance to go to town with fire.
RoW is already shaping up to be a bucket load of carnage and fun. I second the nomination. :)
For the record I just thought it was the best AP for the party you put forward. Any APs are going to have some immunity issues somewhere, and as you said the Double Dragons have other ways to deal. Shattered Star has constructs which are going to be trying for an all magic party. If I was just suggesting which AP I thought was the best and wouldn't steamroll or be steamrolled I say just run Reign in Winter. Its probably the best written thing I've read from paizo, it would mix well with your fey blooded Kitsune, and your Dragons would get a chance to go to town with fire.
That's probably a good suggestion as I too have been very impressed with it so far - of course I've only gotten 2 of the 6 books, so things might change. We're not going to be running the campaign for a while anyway, so it might be worthwhile to wait and see if RoW continues to be as solid as it has started... I did consider both the fey angle and the fire angle initially, just don't want it to feel like the AP was written to play to their strengths.
BTW - as an aside, I'm working on the Dwarven Sorcerer build and I'm pleasantly surprised at how well its turning out. There are some killer traits for him (Deep Guardian and Glory of Old), a nice favored class option considering he'll be focusing on stone and acid spells, etc. Between all of his racial and class benefits along with feats, Earth Elementals summoned by him at just 3rd level will gain +4 Strength, +4 Constitution, +1 Attack, +1 AC and last for two rounds longer than normal. It'll also gain +1 Attack and +1 Damage through Earth Mastery and at 9th level it'll deal an extra 1d6 acid damge per attack and have acid resistance. All that adds up with a quickness.
RoW is already shaping up to be a bucket load of carnage and fun. I second the nomination. :)
Eyes up here, Turin.
I'll note that your house rule distinctly favors wizards who can prey on weak saving throws.
Spell Resistance instantly negates 45-55% of spells needed, before the need to roll the save. That cuts success rate in half across the board. It also works against many spells that don't allow saving throws at all.
Wizards have an ability, unlike fighters, to prey on weak elemental resistance and weak saves...there is no weak AC. +4 to a creature's weak save still makes it worse then a good save any time after 10 HD, and there's ways to bypass elemental resistance far more readily then DR, at least until post-10 and +5 weapons.
==Aelryinth
RoW is already shaping up to be a bucket load of carnage and fun. I second the nomination. :)Eyes up here, Turin.
Can't help but look in the bucket of chummed PCs... mmmmm .. tasty ...
I'll note that your house rule distinctly favors wizards who can prey on weak saving throws.
Spell Resistance instantly negates 45-55% of spells needed, before the need to roll the save. That cuts success rate in half across the board. It also works against many spells that don't allow saving throws at all.
Wizards have an ability, unlike fighters, to prey on weak elemental resistance and weak saves...there is no weak AC. +4 to a creature's weak save still makes it worse then a good save any time after 10 HD, and there's ways to bypass elemental resistance far more readily then DR, at least until post-10 and +5 weapons.
==Aelryinth
Think about what you're saying. Before your character gets to do anything, there's a 45-55% chance of outright failure. Thats before saves, immunities and energy resistance. Imagine if before every attack a Fighter had to flip a coin or not to see if his attacks that round would deal any damage at all. Its absurd.
I know of plenty of creatures who are immune to individual spells or - more commonly, entire swaths of them or even magic altogether... but I'm hard-pressed to think of a creature who's immune to swords or bows. Overcoming saving throws is enough of a challenge in my book and Spell Resistance is a clumsy, obselete machanic that slows down combat and adds absolutely nothing in return except a random chance of failure. How heroic. How entertaining. My Wizard goes through multiple levels of being absolute dead weight to the party, finally gets high enough to actually DO something and its a coin toss whether or not it even works. Epic.
I get that some people like it - some people like lots of things, but it ain't being used at my table. Boosted saving throws work just fine to represent magic resistant creatures for me and mime.
Think about what YOU'RE saying.
Spell Resistance is a defense that can be overcome with caster level boosts and feats. Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration reduce that 55% miss chance to 35%...+4 to hit. Elves add another +2...25% chance to hit. Feats that give caster level boosts and ioun stones add another +2...15% chance to miss.
What you're really saying is "I don't want my wizards to have to invest in all this stuff to overcome spell resistance like fighters do to overcome AC, so I'm going to get rid of it."
Melees of all kinds approach fights with miss chances. At level 1, this is 50% or higher. At higher levels, an auto-hit on your first attack becomes a 65% chance of missing on your last attack.
Fighters deal with miss chances all the time. They invest in stuff to minimize that. Your casters whining about doing the same is removing an integral item of balance to caster power from the game.
Creatures have damage reduction, sometimes substantial. They can be incorporeal. And they can have concealment, invisibility, cover and high AC's, all of which melees have to put up with as they try to bring them down.
none of those really matter to a wizard. AC is a non-issue...you only ever have to worry about Touch AC, and that's a casting choice. Elemental Resistance is a Knowledge check away from being worked around, or you simply don't use an elemental spell. Immunities are a knowledge check from simply using a different spell. And there are plenty of spells that work just fine on creatures that are mostly immune to magic, like Golems.
Melees don't have the advantage of saying "hey, I can't do any damage to this thing, I'm going to draw a dagger and kill him that way." Which any caster can basically do on the spur of the moment. A caster can choose a spell without saves; a spell that always hits; a spell that attacks the save of their choice; a spell that does the element of their choice.
Monsters can also reduce a melee's effectiveness 50% or more simply by moving more then 10 feat and limiting them to one attack. If they are facing archers, using common sense to move from cover to cover, stir up winds, and limit visibility does the same thing...also something casters can easily work around.
Your rule is fairly blatant favoritism for wizards. If you like it, that's fine, but what are you giving melees to balance the scales? Casters already get 'full attacks with a move', and now you removed a common defense against them. Do your melees now get full attacks after a move to keep them equally awesome?
It's a House rule that really favors casters. Acknowledge it and move on.
==Aelryinth
You really keep bouncing around with your arguments.
Saving Throws for casters are analagous to Armor Class for martials. Energy Resistance for casters is analagous to Damage Ressitance for martials... what is Spell Resistance analagous to?
An argument can be made that immunity to criticals hits and precision damage could be analagous to immunity to mind-affecting spells (for example), but what about immunity to magic entirely? There's nothing martials have to deal with that approaches 'immune to anything you can do'.
You say that all wizards have to do is select the right spell for any given situation - well that's all well and good if they have that spell in their spellbooks AND had the foresight to memorize it ahead of time, but memorizing a spell for every possible situation ahead of time is an utter impossibility. And you're leaning heavily on wizards in your argument, particularly high-level wizards, but you aren't taking into accout casters as a whole - partial casters or lower level casters who have incredibly finite resources. Martial attacks never 'run out', but spells do and do so rather quickly. I'm not going to give one character much more limited resources than another and THEN tack on an increased chance of failure to boot.
As for your 'full attack then move' argument, that's just silly. Plenty of spells require a full round action to cast, and I've never seen a wizard approach the kind of single-target damage a well-built martial can do with a full attack action. Not to mention that Fighters get significantly more feats to overcome their issues than Wizards do.
If you think the houserule is intended to favor Wizards then you're entitled to your opinion - as the person who actually put the rule in place I can tell you that's wrong. Its designed to help ALL casters by disregarding a redundant and ultimately unfair rule and designed to help ALL players by speedin gup combat. And its worked pretty darned well so far.
Damage Resistance. If something has 20/- damage resistance then no non-magical attack will do damage unless somehow they can boost the damage above 20 points of damage. Hmm. That strongly sounds like something that negates melee.
Also, if a fighter misses with his sword or bow then no damage is done. If a Fireball goes off and you don't have Magic Resistance? Then even if you made your save you take half damage. And what about those spells that don't ALLOW a save? Thus boosting their save does nothing because hey, they don't get a save!
Some thoughts:
Legacy of Fire If your Kitsune builds the same way as in your RotR game, you're going to have the exact same problems, at least through the first 3 books. There's just too many singular foes with low will saves or groups of gnolls with even worse saves. It's a shame, because flavor-wise, this path is probably the friendliest to elemental bloodline sorcerers (like your dwarf). I ran a group with a Witch who specialized in the Slumber Hex, and she just rolled most of the first three books.
Carrion Crown The encounters here are balanced enough that your group will have to be creative to defeat some of the enemies. I could see a few encounters in the first dungeon alone giving this group fits, where some of the TPK encounters in the second book might be easily bypassed with the right spells. Same for the third. That gets me thinking...
Does your group still adhere to monsters with Magic Immunity (like Golems) having unbeatable SR?
I will say that your house-rule does favor area-of effect damage spells, since unless they have evasion, they're taking damage no matter what. Also, it makes the interactions between Protection from Evil and Summoned Monsters almost too powerful. If they don't get a spell resistance check, they basically auto-fail they ability to physically harm the caster... which means that CR 13 glabrezu that just appeared can be foiled by a 1st level sorcerer with a 1st level spell (for the most part, anyways). If your alright with the possible ramifications, it sounds like an interesting house rule. I'd be interested to see how it works in whatever path you end up running.
Nothing has DR 20/-- that I have come across - adamantine golem, maybe?. A paladin's smite bypasses that whether the target is evil or not.
Good point about no save spells. Maybe add a clause to the effect that death ward has (if the spell does not normally allow a save, the creature is allowed one without the bonus from SR)?
Damage Resistance. If something has 20/- damage resistance then no non-magical attack will do damage unless somehow they can boost the damage above 20 points of damage. Hmm. That strongly sounds like something that negates melee.
Also, if a fighter misses with his sword or bow then no damage is done. If a Fireball goes off and you don't have Magic Resistance? Then even if you made your save you take half damage. And what about those spells that don't ALLOW a save? Thus boosting their save does nothing because hey, they don't get a save!
Putting aside the fact that I can't think of ANY standard creatures out there who have DR 20/-, 'somehow' is an awful lot easier than you think. Let's assume for the sake of argument that the martial characters we're discusssing don't have any class abilities that let them ignore DR (like the Paladin's Smite), don't have any magical weapons that allow them to ignore DR (not very hard to find) and don't have any feats that let them overcome DR (like Penetrating and Greater Penetrating Strike)... it would be a pretty powerful creature strutting around wiith DR 20/- I'd imagine, perhaps somethign suitable for 17th level characters to face?
My party has used the following characters in the past:
A properly equipped 17th level Bardiche-weilding Weaponmaster who dealt 1d10+42 points of damage per attack before criticals. A full attack included 4 attacks per round unless buffed by Haste.
A properly equipped Bow-weilding 2nd level Urban Barbarian / 15th level Weaponmaster who dealt 1d8+32 points of damage per attack at range - and she had Clustered Shots. A full attack included 6 attacks per round unless buffed by Haste.
A properly equipped 1st level Monk of Many Styles / 16th level Brawler who dealt 1d6+25 damage per attack, and made 7 attacks/round unless buffed by Haste.
None of them felt that the casters were improperly out-damaging them and none of them felt as if they were somehow able to enjoy the game less because their fellow casters didn't struggle as much as they could have.
As far as spells like Fireball, how much does your typical Firball-casting wizard do? Well, let's say that he's an Evoker and gets +1 point of damage/two levels and let's say he's a 10th level caster, meaning he deals 10d6+5 points of damage to everyone his fireball affects. Well, if the foe fails his save, that's an average of 40 points of damage, and they make make thier save, that's an average of 20. Do you know how many hit points most credible threats faced by 10th level casters have? 20 points of damage would be a joke to them, and that's assuming that they didn't have Fire Resistance to reduce it even further. So to answer your question, yes, I'm fine with a 10th level caster hurling an exploding ball of fire into his enemies dealing anywhere from 10 to 50 points of damage to each of them, especially when he only has a few of those in his arsenal and the Fighter - who deals more damage per round anyway - can swing as many times as he likes without concern.
Nothing has DR 20/-- that I have come across - adamantine golem, maybe?. A paladin's smite bypasses that whether the target is evil or not.
Good point about no save spells. Maybe add a clause to the effect that death ward has (if the spell does not normally allow a save, the creature is allowed one without the bonus from SR)?
It actually hasn't come up, but I think it would be a good idea to include in the SR houserule that not only do creatures with SR gain a +4 bonus to saves vs. spells but they are allowed a save even against spells that normally do not allow one.
Creatures that are already immune to magic or to specific spells or types of spells retain that immunity of course.
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I had never really looked closely at SR before, but given the sheer mechanical analogies given, I can see how it breaks down as a shutdown for casters. I think the major shutdown factor comes from the fact that your answer to SR, your caster level, is basically unmodifiable outside a pair of feats, a racial choice, and a couple items at best. It's a very static stat that you have few ways of actively affecting, and vice versa for the DM. Need more HP? levels, con, temp spells. More AC? armor, shields, dex, feats, items, buff spells, size, nat armor, miscellaneous stuff. Need higher damage? buffs, items, better weapons, STR score, class features, feats, spells. Need to beat someone's SR? Spell penetration feats, a couple very niche items, or be an elf. Not a lot of variety in that last category, and two of them are choices you're stuck with, for good or ill.
I won't take a side in the argument specifically, as I see the value of SR mechanically, but I do see Story's perspective as valid. Removing extraneous dice rolls is not inconsiderable to the enjoyment and pacing of a game, and furthermore, if it works to make your game more fun and still feels fair to your party, it is a valid rule regardless.
Saving throws are not analogous to AC. Saving throws are more analogous to Concealment.
SR is like AC. CR 20 creatures has SR 32. You roll a d20 + Caster level + bonuses. If it hits, the spell goes off. If it misses, you do nothing.
That's Exactly Like Th vs AC...go look at 4th edition if you want the reverse, where every class rolls against defenses, and AC is a part of them. In PF, the OTHER party rolls vs YOUR static DC, not vice versa. Their saves give them an x% chance of ignoring your spell...which is what concealment does.
And what you're proposing is that your casters don't have to invest in stuff to hit, and just go pure concealment.
'plenty of spells' that take full round casting are summoning spells. And those are often cast before a fight, and have many more uses then simply damage. And (suprise, suprise) they ignore spell resistance!
If your direct attack spells are running into spell resistance, then a) invest in feats to overcome spell resistance or b) use spells where spell resistance isn't a factor, like buffs or conjurations...which is exactly what you are meant to do when facing creatures with spell resistance, the mechanic is there to FORCE YOU to carry a wider variety of spells.
And the 'lesser caster' argument, isn't. Lesser casters have alternatives just like primary casters, and generally don't focus on casting spells directly on an enemy, anyways. If that means they buff this round, then they buff.
The 'damage spells' aspect is a non-argument. If you are not a devoted blaster build, you are not going to be using DD except against mooks, and against mooks, SR is not going to be an issue. A devoted blaster build will have Spell Pen and greater Spell Pen. The Blaster Caster build the board put together and I reference whenever someone wants a blaster build, has both of those feats, plus Varisian Tattoo and Specialized Spell.
When they finally get Spell Perfection for their Firesnake at level 13, they have a +6 caster level bonus, and an additional +8 bonus vs Spell Resistance. In short, at level 15, they can auto-pass enemy spell resistance with their primary attack spell. At lower levels, they have Caster level +6 bonus, because it's a part of the build, meaning generally 20% miss chance on equal CR, equal to hitting on a 5+, and basically steamrolling anything of lower CR without a problem.
Saving throws are equal to concealment, because there's a chance you will miss regardless of how good you roll...the saving throw is that miss chance, where concealment does it to melee. Happily, mages have the chance to determine what kind of concealment the enemy gets, and pick the one with the lowest chance. They can also just focus on nerfing enemy concealment (i.e. raising Saving Throw DC's) and making it totally impossbile for an enemy to save.
Melees just have to suck it up, and rogues don't even get their SA when facing it.
And move and fight to full effect is a HUGE advantage on the caster side. It's a major nerfage to the combat effectiveness of melees. A monster only has to move 10' and he cuts the damage potential of a melee character in half or more. Spellcasters don't have to put up with that nonsense.
Your 'broad solutions' against DR don't kick in until 10+. You generally get a +3 weapon around level 10 to overcome material DR, and you can maybe afford an adamantine weapon before then. That still leaves you with alignment DR, which you're not going to blow past until you reach 13+ and have a +5 weapon to sling around.
The paladin being able to Smite Evil and bypass DR doesn't help the other classes, nor can the paladin smite against every foe. The caster can simply choose an attack form or cast a spell where he doesn't have to worry about DR or an immunity, be it a different Element or dropping a celestial bison on the head of the recalcitrant party. And, hey, celestial summons can smite and bypass DR...isn't that convenient for the casters?
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So, no, I'm not seeing the justification or the defense. I think your system is way too biased to casters, and the ability to focus on Save DC's instead of broader feats means that the overcoming your 'high save' SR creatures mean 'normal save' SR creatures don't stand a prayer against your Casters.
You are getting to focus all your efforts into the save DC basket, and not having to spend anything on caster level and spell penetration boosts. The closest analogy I can think of is melees being able to Power Attack, without any penalty, on every attack. Win!
That's a major boon to every caster you can think of, period.
==Aelryinth