Greetings everyone! I'm going to be running Shattered Star soon here on the boards, and though I've read the first book, I've come to you all for possible assistance in making it work.
For those unaware, I will be modifying the campaign to be set in Robert Brookes' Ruins of Pathfinder setting - meaning that, the players are working for Karzoug, rather than the Pathfinders. In fact, the group the players are now working for is none other than the Cyphermages, who have expanded their area of expertise in this alternate setting, replacing the Pathfinders in the newly reborn Shalast.
As a result.. this campaign's going to be needing some changes, obviously. First, I'm running with 6 players - their exact class/race combinations are currently unknown, and we're possibly going to be testing out the new classes with the upcoming Advanced Class Guide playtest. In addition to the 6 players, they're being given 25-point builds, due to the hardier nature of Ruins of Pathfinder denizens.
One thing also that has changed is that the region is being affected not only by Karzoug's influence, but also the Reign of Winter that is currently choking the life out of the region. Food prices have quadrupled, cold-weather gear prices have doubled, and the region is constantly beset by snow and cold weather - Magnimar itself is more crime-ridden than ever, as well, due to increased taxes thanks to Karzoug.
Normally, running 6 players is relatively easy to modify for - simply add 50% extra minions here and there, enough to equate to 50% additional experience. However, combining that with an increased stat build, how would I go about making things more dangerous, without further increasing experience gains?
My thoughts are give the NPCs more 'disposable gear' (Alchemical weapons), better tactics, and possibly better terrain here and there, etc - but I've come to you, people who have run this campaign already, for this question.
Thoughts?
Ah.. might be having EIGHT players instead.. oh this'll be fun. Heh.
You sure you can't split your current group into two different groups? Because these numerous dungeons can become very crowded with eight PCs in addition to NPCs. Some of the dungeons have quite large hallways, but other have narrow corridors. I'm thinking of the Crow, in particular. That could lead to player frustration when fighting mites, or tower girls, in 5-foot wide passages. It's also very hard to keep a group of eight focused on the game when every player has so little time in the limelight. It can already be the case with 6 players, from my experience.
I'd also recommend going for a 15-point buy, or maybe even 10 with such a large group, so you don't have to add 50% more NPCs. Otherwise, eight PCs, and 50% more NPCs… I'm not even sure if this fits in some of the dungeons!
I've been playing the whole Shattered Star campaign for my group of 4 15-point buy PCs and it's been fairly balanced so far, if a little tough at times.
As for experience, I'd just simply drop XPs so you're free to level up the PCs when the story calls for it, without having to worry about giving them too much or too few experience points.
Thought about it, but this campaign is set in one continuity - thats one of the big points about Rob's Ruins of Pathfinder setting. Both Rob and I are running campaigns in that setting with eight players - he's running a Reign of Winter and a pair of homebrew campaigns, and I'm running another homebrew campaign (And soon to be Shattered Star). Its kind of a recurring theme with us it seems :P
Ruins of Pathfinder is a 'post apocalyptic' version of Golarion - as a result, its also standard-issue for us to use 25-point builds. I talked to the players about using 15-point builds, but they weren't particularly interested in it.. so I went with 25 points and I'm just going to make their lives fun as a result.
I might do that with Experience - I'm giving it a shot with my homebrew campaign, at least.
Still, I do want to make this a challenge.. but also make it viable for eight players. So I'm probably going to be modifying the maps a smidgen to make 'em more friendly to larger groups, while keeping them similar.
Luckily for the eight players part, this is entirely play-by-post - otherwise I wouldn't attempt it.
Here is the mentioned Ruins of Pathfinder: Reign of Winter that Rob is doing. So far he's done some drastic changes to the campaign - though that campaign is more outdoorsy than this one XD
I've been running shattered star for a group of 5 or 6 with 25 point buys.
I told my group after a couple of sessions they would be levelled at appropriate times, and tossed XP.
I can expand the difficulty and/or quantity of enemies to make encounters feel challenging without the group's level getting out of line.
Olwen, you know the crow's map is 10' squares, right? There are almost no 5' hallways in the place, it's pretty damn huge.
Well, having eight players in 10' wide passages is still kind of cramped.. I might end up making it 15'. We'll see when my playtest (Which I'm running solo beforehand) gets to it.
Yes, I know they are 10-foot wide square, but it can still get very cramped with, say, 8 PCs and bolstering the Tower Girls numbers from 15-ish to 25-ish. Later dungeon can also smaller (Windsong Abbey, for instance), or some of the Guiltspur-related dungeons.
Absolutely. Just making sure, because the crow at half size is a completely different animal. ;)
My biggest issue with the expanded group is time. You throw in extra mooks and add extra players to get battles that just seem take forever. 6 2nd level pc's vs 6 ants took an hour and a half... That eats a lot of time out of a 5-6 hour session.
I completely agree. That's why I'm happy to play with a 4-player group. It keeps the game reasonably fast, even though it's now slowed down at level 15, with so many options the PCs can use. That would also be my worry with 6 PCs. Not increasing the number of opponents makes the action economy strongly favor the PCs, even when increasing the opponent's hps and adding advanced templates on them, and increasing them makes the game slow down to a crawl. Tough situation… I suspect playing online makes it easier, but it's still quite a challenge.
But then it makes for unrealistically large corridors and dungeons. It's certainly possible, but not always realistic. :)
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But then it makes for unrealistically large corridors and dungeons. It's certainly possible, but not always realistic. :)
Remember that many of Thassilon's structures, monuments, and dungeons were built by giants. Humans seem to build nice corridors that are 10 feet wide, giants would presumably build them 20 feet wide. That has already been taken into account in the dungeons presented in the AP, but it's not unrealistic to make these majestic, giant-built, monumental Thassilonian dungeons even bigger.
Absolutely. Just making sure, because the crow at half size is a completely different animal. ;)
My biggest issue with the expanded group is time. You throw in extra mooks and add extra players to get battles that just seem take forever. 6 2nd level pc's vs 6 ants took an hour and a half... That eats a lot of time out of a 5-6 hour session.
I would like to add again, that this is by play-by-post, so there isn't an issue of a 5-6 hour session. :P
Considering almost this exact same group is doing a Reign of Winter (Different DM, though he's in this one as a player) with eight players, and have taken a few months to get half way through the first book, we're not in much rush.
Even if at times the slowness of the campaign is a little frustrating, its not as bad as if there were eight players around the table. I've been in that situation once.. never again.
In the case of unrealistically big dungeons, Shaun has it right - the Irespan, though likely designed for humans, was built by Bakhrakhan, who, like all Thassilonian empires, employed Giants. At the very least, they were magically advanced to have the entire Crow's Nest modified with an extradimensional twist - that is, bigger inside than outside, defying what one would expect by looking at the building's outside.
Much like their tent in the 4th Harry Potter book/movie during the Quidditch World Cup.
In that sense, you could go completely nuts with the Crows Nest - 20 ft tall corridors, equally wide, if you want. Certainly it would be more difficult for the residents to defend, though.
However, currently I'm working on Parts 1 and 2 of the book.. and by doubling the experience gained, lets just say this is gonna be fun for my players.
Mostly adding lackies to certain groups, but making a few stronger, as well. Should the players be diplomatic, they can get past having to fight Fenster and his five 2nd-level warrior lackies - but should they piss him off, it'll be a fun fight.
Meanwhile, Plutivarch has been given an additional level of Sorcerer and been given three lackies himself - CR 1/2 rogues, armed with saps, hiding in the building's rafters. Pultivarch is not above hitting his allies with Color Spray, however, so he might end up screwing himself.
The very first encounter - the Pugwampies - is being changed up as well. Instead of just a simple Summon Monster I trap, I'm making it a complex multilayer trap - instead of summoning two Pugwampies, should it be set off, it will summon two Pugwampies, two Advanced Grimples, and two Tooth Fairies. The trap itself will consist of four 'nonlethal' traps attached to the main summon trap - one for necromancy, enchantment, abjuration, and transmutation. Gonna give our Trapfinder a challenge. Since there are eight players, and some aren't trap savvy, at least four of them will be outside hauling goods for the hour - hauling heavy supplies in the cold, as the region is affected by the Reign of Winter currently in effect in this setting (Ruins of Pathfinder).
Meanwhile.. still working on Natalya's area, but heres one thing I do have:
Rusty caltrops in the pools of filth. Filth Fever and Tetanus? Muahahaha.
I put a grease spell trap on the door to the second room of Natalya's hideout. Cuz I'm mean.
Heh thats not a bad idea. I plan on putting a rusty bear trap underneath the weakened rafters. XD
Ah well, finally got the campaign started. Hoooboy is it an interesting group! We're still waiting on one person, but the other seven are as follows:
NE Male Orc Rogue (Scout, Skulking Slayer)
NE Male Shoanti Human Fighter
LE Male Half-Giant Warpriest of Zursvaater
NE Male Chelish Human Arcanist
LE Male Ustalavan Half-Elf Investigator
LN Male Shoanti Human Bloodrager
LN Male Samsaran Arcanist
And.. depending on the 8th, it'll either be a Human Skald or a Gnomish Oracle Necromancer. This.. this will be fun indeed - 4 of the 7 people have 18+ Strength. The other three are weak and fragile.
Its basically four brutes who were hired on to protect the two arcanists and the investigator. Hehehe
I'm almost done modifying the campaign to suit these guys - I.. I think they're going to be absolutely terrified of the Mites. Yes, the Mites. I will show them fear in the form of ten thousand spiders. But.. not just any spiders. Oh no.. regular spiders just won't do. Hue hue hue