Implanted Ioun Stones

Seeker of Secrets gives rules for implanting ioun stones. How do these rules work in PFS where the character has unlimited time between adventures for fasting/recovery and multiple attempts?

What would the cost be for having the stone implanted?

If I have the skills to at least theoretically perform the procedure on myself is there an associated cost given unlimited time?

Flawed stones generate no resonance while in wayfinders but I see no limitations placed on implanting flawed stones.

Implanted Ioun Stones are not legal in PFS, since it isn't listed as allowed in the additional resources page.

Umm, have to say that they are legal for play, as far as the Additional Resources page goes...

Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Seekers of Secrets

Everything in this book is legal for play with the following notes. Equipment: ioun stones use method 1 for resonance and never use method 2. Additionally, only normal ioun stones have resonance—inferior ioun stones never do. Prestige Class: Pathfinder Savants replace the item creation feat prerequisite with Spell Focus

With that said, I believe I read something somewhere on the Society boards about this awhile back, but I can't remember where.

Implanted Ioun Stones are not legal in PFS, since it isn't listed as allowed in the additional resources page.

To Confirm what Gornil just said. This can be found on the Additional Resources Page

Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Seekers of Secrets:

Everything in this book is legal for play with the following notes. Equipment: ioun stones use method 1 for resonance and never use method 2. Additionally, only normal ioun stones have resonance—inferior ioun stones never do. Prestige Class: Pathfinder Savants replace the item creation feat prerequisite with Spell Focus

Currently, implanting ioun stones is a legal process. Since there is an undetermined amount of time between scenarios, and therefore unlimited retries, the process is essentially automatic. Any Constitution damage would heal naturally. I see nothing in Seeker of Secrets that addresses the quality of the stone in regards to implanting, so it would appear that flawed/cracked stones can also be used.

That being said, the rules for implanting ioun stones is something that is being discussed amongst the venture-officers and Mike to determine if anything should be added to the FAQ or v4.2 of the Guide regarding their function and the implantation process. If you chose to implant an ioun stone now, be aware that the rules covering them could change (or not) and require you to make adjustments to your character.

If *you* (read: anyone) have comments on this topic, I encourage you to post them. Mike has an excellent track record of taking community feedback into account when making PFS rulings.

Since we're on Ion stones, will ion stones work on an int 3 or higher animal companion?

Wouldn't see why not, wolf. I was thinking to do the same with my Paladin's mount.

Ion stones

Are those some kind of new power source? ;-)

They should, since IIRC in PFS, the only special rule about Animal companion intelligence is that you still need handle animal to direct it no matter what it's int score is.

Personally, I don't like the idea of animals getting implanted ioun stones. While mechanically I don't see anything stopping it, it just doesn't "feel" right thematically. If you have to make a Charisma check after a lengthy meditation period to "become one" with the stone, that does not sound like something an animal would be capable of doing, especially if it has to chose to suffer the effects of starvation to gain the bonuses to the check. Also, if the mere act of eating is enough to disturb the process, then an outside entity, i.e. the animal's owner, trying to use handle animal to coerce it would seem to be enough break the process as well. YMMV

I didn't want to implant them (and if you have to meditate i agree its probably out), just set them spinning about the critters head normally, since pfs is very restrictive on what kind of magic items a critter can wear.

Although now that i think about it an anklyasurus with a gemstone encrusted hide sounds pretty cool...

Cat familiar, I've just purchased an ioun torch for you. I don't think you will find it too distracting....

I don't see any reason you couldn't set an ioun stone spinning around an animal. They are slot-less items and most (all?) are always-active. Outside of the obvious restrictions (spellcasting stones, etc) it appears legal.

We had a player in our group (character a vudrani yogi sorcerer whose flavor is psionic) who asked about this. I allowed it, and we did all the rolls at the table. In fact, everyone chipped in to help with the implantation. It was an interesting process, and it took a couple of tries. I'll point him towards this thread so he can keep watch.

Seeker of Secrets, page 43, "[Ioun stones] have no effect on animals, mindless constructs, and other non-sentient creatures."

PFS FAQ reads:
"'Can I improve my companion’s Intelligence to 3 or higher and give it weapon feats?

No. An Intelligence of 3 does not grant animals sentience, the ability to use weapons or tools, speak a language (though they may understand one with a rank in Linguistics; this does not grant literacy), or activate magic devices. Also note that raising an animal companion’s Intelligence to 3 or higher does not eliminate the need to make Handle Animal checks to direct its actions; even semi-intelligent animals still act like animals unless trained not to. An animal with Intelligence of 3 or higher remains a creature of the animal type unless its type is specifically changed by another ability. An animal may learn 3 additional tricks per point of Intelligence above 2.'"

So it appears that familiars [outsiders and magical beasts] can use Ioun stones, animal companions cannot.

Nice catch Dolgrim

So can animal companions still take any skill or feat (except proficiency feats apparently) if they have INT 3?

Usually they can, but PFS tosses the usual rules for animal companion intelligence out the window, so I'm not sure. The fact that the FAQ mentions the linguistics skill suggests that this is still the case.

I've discussed with both Sean and Jason about these. There is no balance issue as the ioun stones still work exactly the same way they do if floating around your head. They still cost double what a slot item costs. They do not stack in a different manner. The only difference is they don't float around your head. As a GM, I've never targeted a floating ioun stone on a PC. I don't know of any other GM who has either. Simply put, the NPC usually has more to worry about than knocking a ioun stone away.

So, that only leaves the time and rolls. As there is unlimited time between scenarios, this really doesn't matter to be honest. I don't think it is worth the time or effort to legislate any of these since they really don't create an imbalance in anyway.

As for implanted ioun stones for animals, familiars [outsiders and magical beasts] can use Ioun stones, animal companions cannot. Thanks to Dolgrim for pointing that out.

Saint Caleth, please start a new thread regarding ACs takings skills and feats as it is a completely different topic and I don't want to confuse people by going back and forth and two different topics in one thread.

Since the DC's for the skills (Heal and Know: Arcana) are set at 25 and 30, does the character trying to implant a stone in himself then have to have at least a +10 to Heal and +5 to Know Arcana?

I would think so, but I'd like clarification on where you want that particular issue to stand.

I would think a +15 and a +20 (take 10able).

Are you able to take 10 in painful situations? I can imagine implanting is painful, but I haven't read the specifics in a bit.

The only issue I could really see with it are two:

The rules seem to imply that you can't implant a second Ioun stone, since the one you are working on connecting to has to be the only one you have active?

And, if you can have more than one, is there any real reason not to make that first one a clear spindle Ioun stone? After all, that one allows you to essentially fast forever without taking any penalties for it....

I would think a +15 and a +20 (take 10able).

You dont need to be able to take 10 on the check. As Mike has already specified, since there is an indefinite amount of time between scenarios, the character would eventually make the rolls, even if they needed to get a 20 on both checks.

Russ Taylor wrote:

I would think a +15 and a +20 (take 10able).

You dont need to be able to take 10 on the check. As Mike has already specified, since there is an indefinite amount of time between scenarios, the character would eventually make the rolls, even if they needed to get a 20 on both checks.

If PFS wants to so suspend disbelief that indefinite becomes effectively infinite, that's their prerogative. :) With each failed attempt inflicting 1d6 Con damage (and 1d6 days of rest for recovery), it takes a considerable amount of time to accomplish implanting with poor rolls. It seems to me that assuming potentially 2 months of downtime between scenarios is a little odd, and not something I'd personally do unless I was deliberately not adventuring much that year.

You're certainly welcome to restrict yourself that way if you like, just like how some people "age" their PCs a certain amount per scenario. :)

I just had an image of some character with 10-15 of these implanted ... walking around in the dark wielding a Chakram thats had Light cast on it

can we say Tron ?

It seems to me that assuming potentially 2 months of downtime between scenarios is a little odd, and not something I'd personally do unless I was deliberately not adventuring much that year.

I used to take 2-3 months off in game for the winter months. During this time I would conduct spell research and live a "normal" life. It also allowed for non-combat roleplay and character building.

This is one of the few things I wish that PFS had that it doesn't. Some way to track time spent. An obvious example is the old Time Units which generally equated to a week, in the Living Greyhawk campaign. I wouldn't want it precisely that way, but I think something similar would be a good thing.

This is one of the few things I wish that PFS had that it doesn't. Some way to track time spent. An obvious example is the old Time Units which generally equated to a week, in the Living Greyhawk campaign. I wouldn't want it precisely that way, but I think something similar would be a good thing.

I agree Kristoph. I actually liked the Time Units but I know I'm far in the minority there. There was a lot of hate towards the system by the end of Greyhawk's run.

However, a time unit system opens up a lot of things that our current system doesn't. Like crafting. Of course this means much more paperwork, but I actually don't mind the paperwork either.

I loved Time units ... most of the time ... I agreed with them for crafting ... but not for meta-orgs

the only problem with Crafting is the power creep that comes into play

So, They kind of do have at least 1 time tracking unit.

1 Year in real life is 1 year in Golarion.

So right now it is the year 4712.

Yeah, except that Scenarios don't have dates in them.

Yeah, except that Scenarios don't have dates in them.

"Oh good, shadowlodge pathfinders! Hey guys, I just picked up these great Taldan bathsalts for grandmaster Tor...." THUNK!

"OW! WHY THE HELL DID YOU JUST SHOOT ME WITH A CROSSBOW!?!?!?"

I have 5 characters, and can say that not one of them will go through the self operation of putting these in. This may be a fantasy game with fast healing and magical healing but I cant think of going through that over and over again.

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Ion stones

Are those some kind of new power source? ;-)

Only if you have the ability to overcome great fear.

Id Like to say I agree .... however ... this Idea has some huge benifits when it comes to slot issues

for example .. my cleric of Urgathoa Might buy the Cha one so she can wear a Phylactry of negative energy channeling on her head, maybe even a wisdom one as well

thats the only example I can come up with ATM ... but Im sure theres more

The only issue I could really see with it are two:

The rules seem to imply that you can't implant a second Ioun stone, since the one you are working on connecting to has to be the only one you have active?

And, if you can have more than one, is there any real reason not to make that first one a clear spindle Ioun stone? After all, that one allows you to essentially fast forever without taking any penalties for it....

Karzog (the Runelord of Wrath) had something like 23 ioun stones implanted. Given that Rise of the Runelords was the first Pathfinder Adventure Path, I would presume that you would not be correct. However, I do agree about the clear spindle ioun stone or the ring of sustenance. Is fasting simply not eating and drinking, or is it the actual abstinence from sustenance? One of those "the rules are not clear" scenarios.

kinevon wrote:

The only issue I could really see with it are two:

The rules seem to imply that you can't implant a second Ioun stone, since the one you are working on connecting to has to be the only one you have active?

And, if you can have more than one, is there any real reason not to make that first one a clear spindle Ioun stone? After all, that one allows you to essentially fast forever without taking any penalties for it....

Karzog (the Runelord of Wrath) had something like 23 ioun stones implanted. Given that Rise of the Runelords was the first Pathfinder Adventure Path, I would presume that you would not be correct. However, I do agree about the clear spindle ioun stone or the ring of sustenance. Is fasting simply not eating and drinking, or is it the actual abstinence from sustenance? One of those "the rules are not clear" scenarios.

To begin the ritual, the owner meditates with but a single stone in orbit around him. The body must be cleansed by fasting for a period of at least 3 days. If the fast is broken or interrupted, the process must begin anew.

You are right, I wasn't reading it right, since that "in orbit" is part of it, it doesn't matter, other than whether the stone has a redundant bonus, how many stones are implanted.

And, since you don't have to eat or drink under the effects of either a Ring of Sustenance or a clear spindle Ioun Stone, your body will be cleansed, you just won't have to suffer starvation or dehydration effects.

Now, to be honest, I would maybe put in a PFS-specific limitation on Ioun Stones being implanted to one per Chronicle. After all, if you have a Ring of Sustenance or the clear spindle Ioun Stone, you have no reason not to meditate as long as it takes for a 1 to be successful on a DC 20 Charisma check...

Worse case: Dwarf, Cha 5, -3, so 24 days to a +19 modifier.
Best case: Human Sorcerer, 12th level (we'll ignore higher levels, since we are talking general PFS), Cha 18 +2 racial +2 level +6 headband = 28 (ignoring the Tomes/Librams/Books/what-have-you that give inherent bonuses for reading), 28 = +9, so only 12 days of fasting to achieve that +19

Neither is counting any other items that can add to general Charisma checks, of course. IIRC, there is even an Ioun Stone that can give a bonus like that.

Cat familiar, I've just purchased an ioun torch for you. I don't think you will find it too distracting....

Dude - that's gonna drive the cat nuts! :)